NY Post Article: Able Danger

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
How does this relate to the 9/11 commission’s doing its job, Gorelick’s suitability for appointment to the 9/11 commission, or anything related to the point?

marmadogg wrote:

Pinning 9/11 on Bush would solve nothing.

This thread was started to discuss the following question:

‘Did Gorelick’s memo have anything to do with the intelligence failures that allowed 9/11 to happen?’

The answer is NO.[/quote]

Really? I thought this post started the thread:

[i]snipeout wrote:

Just wondering if anyone else caught the article in the NY Post today or anywhere else by the Lt. Col from Able Danger. The basic storyline was how this task force(Able Danger) had intel on 4 of the 9/11 masterminds(atta included) and attempted to relay to the FBI that these guys were operating as a cell in the US.

The only problem was due to the fact that the clinton administration made it illegal for these agencies to share intel the pentagon shot this Col. down 3 times. Now it isn’t just this lite colonel talking about there are others still active who have to wait for clearance from their respective agencies before they can talk about it in the press. Anyone care to comment on this article??

http://www.nypost.com/...lnews/27181.htm[/i]

Note the subtle difference. I suppose we can argue semantics over the word “illegal” for awhile if you wish, but you’d find it difficult to make the argument that the policies put in place during the Clinton administration, and particularly relating to Gorelick’s tenure in the DoD and the DOJ, that made it structurally more difficult to exchange information between law enforcement and intelligence.

While the “wall of separation” memo is a good place to start, that doesn’t even begin to get into the mindset and bureaucratic policies of what was approved and what was not approved, “legal” or otherwise.

[quote]marmadogg wrote:
The 9/11 commission did not believe it had anything to do with it and Ashcroft’s deputy decided to keep ‘the wall’ in place when Bush took office.[/quote]

Yes indeed it was, as were a whole bunch of other policies left over from previous administrations that weren’t magically changed when Bush ascended to office, including the executive order from Clinton not to deal with unsavory characters. Such is the bureaucratic inertia – and it also reflects the mindset of dealing with terrorists as individual criminals. This idea was shared by a lot of folks prior to 9/11, and it was incorrect – and we need to get to identifying how it manifested itself, with such items as the “wall of separation,” to go about fixing it. This is what the 9/11 Commission was supposed to do, but when you have someone sitting on the commission who was part of incorporating that mindset and who may just have been interested in making sure there was no perception of blame, the appearance of propriety and factfinding is just a bit compromised (to say the least).

In hindsight, it would have been nice if Bush had come into office with the idea that he would transform the terrorism-fighting processes and mindset that had been built up, but he didn’t. What is more than niceties is identifying problems that get in the way of effectively dealing with the terrorists and preventing attacks, particularly when impediments to effectiveness have been baked into the system.

[quote]marmadogg wrote:

I don’t give as crap about Gorelick or any of your diversionary assertions.[/quote]

Diversionary from what? From identifying and solving problems?

[quote]marmadogg wrote:

I am so glad that congress wasted $70+ million to convict Clinton of perjury when we should have been bombing Afganistan.[/quote]

Speaking of diversionary… I’m sure that’s exactly how the decision was made and weighed.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

I think you posted those links:)

[/quote]

Darn it, I asked you not to tell me that…

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

I think you posted those links:)

Darn it, I asked you not to tell me that…
[/quote]

Wait a minute, I think, I’ve got it now. Even with all of the head wounds I have suffered over the years.

Let’s see if this is correct BB. Your assertion is that there was a history of non cooperation among agencies that contributed to 9/11 well glory be, I would have to agree with that!

But, then your further assertion is that the great blue eyed devil, “Slick Willy” and his henchmen (or in this case henchwomen) further cemented this wall by issuing fatwas (sp?) that any agency personal cooperating with another agency or sharing info that could thwart terrorist attacks will be hung by their nipples from the highest rafters in the Pentagon.

Basically, you would like the sheeples to believe that Clinton and Reno gave the message that if we get any information about a terrorist farting much less attacking us and you bring it to light you will be hung out to dry. Exonerating your hero Dubya again from any culpability what so ever!

It’s all Clinton’s fault let’s shout this from the highest mountain tops. Now that the truth of the Iraqi situation is becoming clearer let’s start deflecting, hell were good at that anyway!

Did you watch Dildo O’Reilly last night? That former Republican senator on the 9/11 commission pretty much dismantled your argument about Reno and her top aide.

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

I think you posted those links:)

Darn it, I asked you not to tell me that…

Wait a minute, I think, I’ve got it now. Even with all of the head wounds I have suffered over the years.

Let’s see if this is correct BB. Your assertion is that there was a history of non cooperation among agencies that contributed to 9/11 well glory be, I would have to agree with that!

But, then your further assertion is that the great blue eyed devil, “Slick Willy” and his henchmen (or in this case henchwomen) further cemented this wall by issuing fatwas (sp?) that any agency personal cooperating with another agency or sharing info that could thwart terrorist attacks will be hung by their nipples from the highest rafters in the Pentagon.

Basically, you would like the sheeples to believe that Clinton and Reno gave the message that if we get any information about a terrorist farting much less attacking us and you bring it to light you will be hung out to dry. Exonerating your hero Dubya again from any culpability what so ever!

It’s all Clinton’s fault let’s shout this from the highest mountain tops. Now that the truth of the Iraqi situation is becoming clearer let’s start deflecting, hell were good at that anyway!

Did you watch Dildo O’Reilly last night? That former Republican senator on the 9/11 commission pretty much dismantled your argument about Reno and her top aide. [/quote]

Elkhunter
Thank you for the summary

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:

Wait a minute, I think, I’ve got it now. Even with all of the head wounds I have suffered over the years.

Let’s see if this is correct BB. Your assertion is that there was a history of non cooperation among agencies that contributed to 9/11 well glory be, I would have to agree with that![/quote]

Correct thusfar. Alas, it’s not to continue for long…

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:

But, then your further assertion is that the great blue eyed devil, “Slick Willy” and his henchmen (or in this case henchwomen) further cemented this wall by issuing fatwas (sp?) that any agency personal cooperating with another agency or sharing info that could thwart terrorist attacks will be hung by their nipples from the highest rafters in the Pentagon. [/quote]

No wait, still correct, but coloring it as to actually affect the meaning.

More later.

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:

Basically, you would like the sheeples to believe that Clinton and Reno gave the message that if we get any information about a terrorist farting much less attacking us and you bring it to light you will be hung out to dry. Exonerating your hero Dubya again from any culpability what so ever!

It’s all Clinton’s fault let’s shout this from the highest mountain tops. Now that the truth of the Iraqi situation is becoming clearer let’s start deflecting, hell were good at that anyway![/quote]

Clinton’s administration greatly increased the bureaucratic and legal hurdles of inter-agency (and even intra-agency) information sharing – most especially between the “law enforcement” DOJ and intelligence gathtering agencies (obviously the CIA, but also military intelligence and apparently other agencies as well).

The reasons for this were seemingly at least twofold: 1) Clinton didn’t want to be politically embarrassed by the intelligence agencies possible violations of anyone’s civil rights or any claims they might have, including but not limited to terrorists, who were not distinguished from ordinary criminals, which leads into 2) Clinton didn’t see any reason to except terrorists from ordinary criminals like drug runners, either in the way we treated them individually or in treating terrorism as a crime-fighting, catch-them-after-it’s-all-over and then try and convict them manner.

I’m not saying that outlook was different under previous regimes, but I am saying the principles of separation and the failure to recognize the pattern that suggested changing the way we treat terrorism from reactive law-enforcement to active intelligence and prevention exacerbated our structural problems in dealing with terrorism. And yeah, made it so we missed at least one possible opportunity to stop 9/11.

Now, hindsight is 20/20, and I’m not trying to say or insinuate any bad intent – more political “cover your a$$” mentality run amok. And it needs to be ferreted out and changed.

BTW, Dubya’s not my hero, and he continued the Clinton policies – though he didn’t make them worse. There are lots of policies of previous administrations I wish he would have come into office targeting, though he didn’t – and this, with our 20/20 hindsight, tops the list.

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:

Did you watch Dildo O’Reilly last night? That former Republican senator on the 9/11 commission pretty much dismantled your argument about Reno and her top aide. [/quote]

I don’t usually watch O’Reilly. Please elucidate the demolition for me.

Well, BB, I will concede with your assessment as you did with mine that there is some truth in both. I tend to provide my view with a bit of sarcastic humor as you do with a barrage of analysis from like-minded sources.

I see that Bush supporters such as yourself (is that better?) will attempt to use the Able issue as a way to influence people away from any ill thought of Bush and company. Manipulation in my view and I detest it.

As far as Dildo he kept asking for the former senator to back his claim that Reno and her aide were directly responsible for the Able claim. The former senator clearly and with emphasis repudiated dildo’s claims. I am sure the transcript can be googled up.

The bottom line:

Second Officer Says 9/11 Leader Was Named Before Attacks

"In its final report last year, the Sept. 11 commission said that American intelligence agencies were unaware of Mr. Atta until the day of the attacks.

The leaders of the Sept. 11 commission acknowledged on Aug. 12 that their staff had met with a Navy officer last July, 10 days before releasing the panel’s final report, who asserted that a highly classified intelligence operation, Able Danger, had identified “Mohamed Atta to be a member of an Al Qaeda cell located in Brooklyn.”

But the statement, which did not identify the officer, said the staff determined that “the officer’s account was not sufficiently reliable to warrant revision of the report or further investigation” and that the intelligence operation “did not turn out to be historically significant.”


If the story below is true then the Bush administration axed ‘Able Danger’

“A small group of Defense Intelligence Agency employees ran the Able Danger operation from fall 1999 to February 2001 - just seven months before the terrorist attacks - when the operation was unceremoniously axed, according to a former defense intelligence official familiar with the program. The former official asked not to be identified.”

http://www.timesherald.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=15032471&BRD=1672&PAG=461&dept_id=33380&rfi=6

What were we discussing again?

Watch this story fade as the (Bush) Pentagon botched this and are quietly trying to make this go away.

It was not enough for the right wingnuts that the 9/11 commission did not blame anyone for 9/11. Now they want to blame Clinton.

I am still ROTFLMFAO!

Marmadogg,

I don’t think your post proves what you think it does.

[quote]Marmadogg wrote:
The bottom line:

Second Officer Says 9/11 Leader Was Named Before Attacks

"In its final report last year, the Sept. 11 commission said that American intelligence agencies were unaware of Mr. Atta until the day of the attacks.

The leaders of the Sept. 11 commission acknowledged on Aug. 12 that their staff had met with a Navy officer last July, 10 days before releasing the panel’s final report, who asserted that a highly classified intelligence operation, Able Danger, had identified “Mohamed Atta to be a member of an Al Qaeda cell located in Brooklyn.”

But the statement, which did not identify the officer, said the staff determined that “the officer’s account was not sufficiently reliable to warrant revision of the report or further investigation” and that the intelligence operation “did not turn out to be historically significant.”

[/quote]

I noted this in the other Able Danger thread. All it shows is the conclusion of the 9/11 staffers, not whether their conclusion was based on research or whether they did due diligence on the information when it was presented. The staff released its memo when Congressman Weldon’s claims came out – in response, the 3 (I think - maybe 2) witnesses have come forward.

I know they were on a deadline and basically had the report written, and that the information conflicted with their timeline. What I don’t know is whether it was properly vetted or simply dismissed.

Here’s a speculative, but very interesting, look at where the 9/11 commission’s report and the Able Danger stuff were in conflict (and yes, I already know you don’t like NRO, but Andrew McCarthy is a credible person - a former U.S. attorney who prosecuted the terrorists in the 1993 WTC bombings):

http://corner.nationalreview.com/05_08_21_corner-archive.asp#073929

ABLE DANGER: TRACKING ATTA [Andy McCarthy]
Two witnesses who actually worked on Able Danger (navy Capt. Scott Phillpott and James D. Smith, a civilian employee of a defense contractor) have now come forward and asserted that the intelligence program identified 9/11 ringleader Mohamed Atta as a likely al Qaeda terrorist as early as January or February 2000. And recall that Lt. Col. Larry Shaffer has pointed to another team member (a female) who has not come forward at this time but who, Shaffer asserts, would provide consistent information.

Let?s leave aside for now that the Pentagon says it has not, to date, been able to find documentary corroboration (at least that mentions the names of specific terrorists)( http://insider.washingtontimes.com/login/login.php ). What I want to focus on at the moment in the 9/11 commission?s methodology.

The commission staff interviewed Phillpott right before its report was issued in July 2004. His version of events was rejected and deemed unworthy of mention even in a footnote. This seems to have been done in the absence of much follow-up investigation ? such as speaking to other Able Danger members who could have corroborated Phillpott (at least one of whom now has). The rationale for the peremptory dismissal of Phillpott was that his version did not jive with the Atta timeline the commission had already settled on. That is, because the commission was certain Atta did not enter the U.S. until June 2000, it rejected a version that would have put him here five or six months earlier.

This calls to mind the commission?s rejection of the possibility that Atta left the U.S. to meet with an Iraqi intelligence officer, Ahmed al-Ani, in Prague on or about April 8, 2001. I?ve previously addressed this, here. The commission confidently concluded that Atta could not have been in Prague at the time because the FBI had placed him in Virginia as of April 4 when he was captured by a surveillance camera as he withdrew $8,000 from his bank account. The FBI has no eyewitness account for Atta?s whereabouts in the U.S. for a week ? i.e., until April 11 when he was seen in Florida.

But a Czech witness claims to have seen Atta meeting with al-Ani in Prague on or about April 8. The commission, which never interviewed the witness, rejected this possibility, largely based on cell phone records showing that Atta?s phone was used in Florida on April 6, 9, 10, and 11. Those records, though, only establish that someone, not necessarily Atta, used the phone (like, say, his roommate and fellow hijacker Marwan al-Shehhi). Meanwhile, though al-Ani, the Iraqi, evidently denies meeting Atta, it has been reported that the Czechs have al-Ani’s appointment calendar and it says al-Ani was scheduled to meet on the critical day with a “Hamburg student” ? which is exactly how Atta identified himself when he applied for a visa.

And we also know that Atta had traveled to Prague before ? choosing on June 2, 2000 to stop there on the way to the U.S. rather than flying directly here from Hamburg. (It must be noted that reports of an earlier trip by Atta to Prague on May 31, 2000, which I relied on as more corroboration for the alleged April 2001 trip, were later discounted by the commission, convincingly, as based on mistaken identity. See Final Report, pp. 228 & 522 n.69.)

Significantly for present purposes, the commission also contended that Atta?s practice was to travel under his own name (Final Report at 229), and there is no indication of that in April 2001. But, of course, that Atta traveled under his own name at times (which he may have had good operational reasons for doing ? such as being able to back up his cover story of who he was), does not prove that he did not travel under aliases at times when he wanted his movements to be secret (which might well have been the case in April 2001 given the big cash withdrawal, which suggests a reluctance to pay expenses in a traceable way). You can only prove travel by an alias if you know what the alias is. And there is evidence that Atta used aliases ? both he and fellow plotter Ramzi bin al-Shibh, for example, acquired false passports from a pair of Algerians, Khaled Madani and Moussa Laour ( http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock200406030932.asp ).

The commission could, of course, be right. It?s quite possible Atta never went to Prague in April 2001. But the commission could also be dead wrong. And for present purposes, the point is: how sure can we be of its Atta timeline? The timeline based on which the commission insists Atta was not in the U.S. before June 2000, and based on which it rejected Phillpott, whose account has now been seconded.
Posted at 12:11 PM

[quote]Marmadogg wrote:


If the story below is true then the Bush administration axed ‘Able Danger’

“A small group of Defense Intelligence Agency employees ran the Able Danger operation from fall 1999 to February 2001 - just seven months before the terrorist attacks - when the operation was unceremoniously axed, according to a former defense intelligence official familiar with the program. The former official asked not to be identified.”

http://www.timesherald.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=15032471&BRD=1672&PAG=461&dept_id=33380&rfi=6

What were we discussing again?

Watch this story fade as the (Bush) Pentagon botched this and are quietly trying to make this go away.

It was not enough for the right wingnuts that the 9/11 commission did not blame anyone for 9/11. Now they want to blame Clinton.

I am still ROTFLMFAO![/quote]

Umm. So what if Bush axed the Able Danger operation? Various operations are “axed” all the time if they don’t seem to be producing results. While it would have been a bad decision in hindsight – especially given the apparent power of data mining operations – that’s entirely beside the point.

Though I suppose enough of the easily mislead could be convinced that it was important that the Pentagon would be “embarrassed.”

I forgot to note –

The main point, that’s being missed because people want to make this a partisan issue, is that these structural impediments to intelligence sharing between agencies need to be removed.

That and non-citizens don’t have a right to be free of governmental surveillance, and shouldn’t be treated as if they have such a right.

These are the most important issues that this whole “Able Danger” thing has brought to light, and we should focus seriously on reforming the agencies’ protocols, and tearing down the walls.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
I forgot to note –

The main point, that’s being missed because people want to make this a partisan issue, is that these structural impediments to intelligence sharing between agencies need to be removed.[/quote]

Maybe, in some circumstances.

Let’s be clear that you mean identified people. Or should the government just watch everybody and then figure out later who is or isn’t a citizen?

The walls were there for a reason weren’t they? Has that reason gone away? Maybe instead of tearing the walls down willy-nilly they should have a couple gates or doors put into them?

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
I forgot to note –

The main point, that’s being missed because people want to make this a partisan issue, is that these structural impediments to intelligence sharing between agencies need to be removed.

That and non-citizens don’t have a right to be free of governmental surveillance, and shouldn’t be treated as if they have such a right.

These are the most important issues that this whole “Able Danger” thing has brought to light, and we should focus seriously on reforming the agencies’ protocols, and tearing down the walls.[/quote]

There is alot of blame to go around on this one.

I do not recall anyone blaming H.W. after the first WTC attack.

9/11 proves that the federal goverment is too often the employer of last resort.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
I forgot to note –

That and non-citizens don’t have a right to be free of governmental surveillance, and shouldn’t be treated as if they have such a right.

vroom wrote:
Let’s be clear that you mean identified people. Or should the government just watch everybody and then figure out later who is or isn’t a citizen?[/quote]

Actually, citizens don’t have the right to be free from surveillance in public places, but they do have privacy rights in the home and with personal effects and property in certain circumstances.

Non-citizens don’t.

So, yeah, to the extent the government wants to engage in surveillance on non-citizens that would be more extensive than would be allowed for citizens, yes, they should identify those individuals as non-citizens. However, getting down to brass tacks, it’s not as if the government has unlimited resources and will be out surveilling everyone – if they’re targeting people, I would feel confident they know whether they’re citizens.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:

These are the most important issues that this whole “Able Danger” thing has brought to light, and we should focus seriously on reforming the agencies’ protocols, and tearing down the walls.

vroom wrote:

The walls were there for a reason weren’t they? Has that reason gone away? Maybe instead of tearing the walls down willy-nilly they should have a couple gates or doors put into them?[/quote]

The walls were there due to a combination of poor reasoning and the bias against the CIA et al that was firmly in place throughout the Cold War and prior to 9/11. They were argued against at the time they were installed because of the very problems they are causing, though people didn’t place as high a value on those problems when they were merely potential problems. They should be removed.

Interesting… Arlen Specter is trying to look into this further:


Honorable Robert Mueller
Director
Federal Bureau of Investigation
935 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, D. C. 20535-0001

Dear Director Mueller,

It has been reported in the news media and directly to my staff that Army Lt. Colonel Anthony Shaffer was the operations officer for a secret military program referred to as Able Danger. The mission of Able Danger was to use a sophisticated data mining program in conjunction with more traditional military intelligence methods to identify and track al Qaida terrorists oversees.

In connection with this mission, Shaffer reports that he and his associates discovered the names and U.S. locations of three of the four 9-11 pilots a year prior to 9-11. Because the suspected al Qaida terrorists were located in the U.S., Shaffer reports that he made repeated requests of Defense Intelligence Agency (?DIA?) officials to schedule a meeting with FBI officials in order to present this intelligence to the FBI for further investigation. Shaffer further contacted FBI agent Xanthig Mangum and asked her to schedule such a meeting within FBI. Shaffer states that he made this request both verbally and by email to Agent Mangum. Shaffer claims that the DIA decided not to share this information with the FBI on the advice of legal counsel and that certain meetings that had been scheduled on this issue were cancelled as a result.

This is an official request that your office provide to the Judiciary Committee all information and documents it has in connection with Able Danger, Lt. Colonel Anthony Shaffer, Captain Scott Phillipot or any other persons having any connections with Project Able Danger, including, but not limited to, email communication, notes, phone message slips, memos or any other supporting documentation.

I would appreciate it if you would provide Agent Mangum for an interview with my staff at your earliest convenience. Also, please provide information concerning any and all requests made to the FBI by any other entity, agency, branch or commission in connection with Agent Mangum, Lt Colonel Shaffer, Project Able Danger or any related matters, including, but not limited to, requests for interviews or documents.

Thank you for your attention to this important question about cross agency information sharing.

Sincerely,

Arlen Specter 

No offense vroom, but last time I checked, you resided in canada. You have way to much to say about US govt. and policy. By the way thank your prime minister for all his support in the war on terror. Can I get you to call me all sort of nasty liberal names like you call ZEB?

I heard Specter was going to hold call for some hearings to be held wrt the ‘new’ information that has come out.

It would be nice. And I hate to say this, but I’m in agreement with Specter.