Everyone knew Islamic terrorists were going to attack the USA prior to 9/11 and we were unable to stop it.
It is as ignorant to blame FDR as it is to blame Bush.
If we’re ‘hostile’ to the Japanese in the months before the war, we are obviously trying to provoke them. If we’re friendly to the Japanese at that time, we’re obviously condoning their rape of China.
There is no winning with the Left: Just by being Americans, we are guilty of something.
To paraphrase from John Wayne: “No Prospects, you are a loo-loo!” (The Comancheros)
HH
[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
there is no denying that his administration pursued a hostile and antagonistic foreign policy towards Japan in the months leading up to the attack.[/quote]
Sure. As he should – considering the geopolitical situation at the time, what you would expect him to do? Roll the red carpet?
That is very different from basically accusing him of using American people as bait or serving them up as human sacrifice. That theory is right up there with the whole 9/11 “It’s all a conspiracy led by the Jews” theory. Hey, there’s plenty of evidence supporting that too, right?
[quote]doogie wrote:
I was just hoping to see two lefties fight over FDR.[/quote]
That would be like me saying I was hoping to see two righties – you and a neo-nazi – fight over Reagan…
Well, I’ve had you and steveo fighting over religion, which was close enough…
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
There is no winning with the Left: Just by being Americans, we are guilty of something.[/quote]
That would be like me saying:
There is no winning with the Right: Just by being hard-working people, we’re considered worthless scum.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
There is no winning with the Left: Just by being Americans, we are guilty of something.
[/quote]
I think you need to take another quick look at the “moonbat” thread.
[quote]hspder wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
There is no winning with the Left: Just by being Americans, we are guilty of something.
That would be like me saying:
There is no winning with the Right: Just by being hard-working people, we’re considered worthless scum.
[/quote]
Come down from the ethereal heights and explain, Doc. You’ve lost me. Of course, I’m still confused by your advocacy of DNP use.
How does the Right in this country consider hard-working people as ‘scum’?
HH
[quote]knewsom wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
There is no winning with the Left: Just by being Americans, we are guilty of something.
I think you need to take another quick look at the “moonbat” thread.[/quote]
Why does my reasoning categorize me as a ‘moonbat’? Is it not true that the Left in this country NEVER admits, no matter what conservatives do, that conservatives do some good? Ex: If you help the poor, its: “Well, its trying politicize helping the poor! How dare you!”. If conservatives don’t help the poor: “Oh you greedy bastards! Everything for the RICH!!!” Admit it; the Libs are a bunch of fucking haters! They’ve filled up on ‘Haterade’.
This is why conservatism is sweeping the world: Germany, Mexico, Australia, Canada, and soon Britain. Conservatism will finally sweep the Marxists/Libs into the dustbin of history. Good riddance!!
HH
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
knewsom wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
There is no winning with the Left: Just by being Americans, we are guilty of something.
I think you need to take another quick look at the “moonbat” thread.
Why does my reasoning categorize me as a ‘moonbat’? Is it not true that the Left in this country NEVER admits, no matter what conservatives do, that conservatives do some good? Ex: If you help the poor, its: “Well, its trying politicize helping the poor! How dare you!”. If conservatives don’t help the poor: “Oh you greedy bastards! Everything for the RICH!!!” Admit it; the Libs are a bunch of fucking haters! They’ve filled up on ‘Haterade’.
This is why conservatism is sweeping the world: Germany, Mexico, Australia, Canada, and soon Britain. Conservatism will finally sweep the Marxists/Libs into the dustbin of history. Good riddance!!
HH
[/quote]
dude… you’re the one who sounds bitter here, and always hatin’ on the left, like they’ve never done anything good for anyone… If I’d wanted to call you a moonbat, I just would’ve. I referred you back to the other thread as a reminder that the left is not a unilateral bunch of nutcases - those few nutcases just seem to be the loudest. Not all liberals are moonbats, just like not all conservatives are wackos.
YOU on the other hand, are sliding down the slippery slope to becoming a wacko, and an angry one at that.
And it is certainly NOT true that the left has never admitted that the right has done good… the right just does it so rarely that the left hardly ever needs mention it. 
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Of course, I’m still confused by your advocacy of DNP use.[/quote]
When did I “advocate DNP use”? The only thing I advocated was research. And research includes experimentation. Even if it leads to failure and NON-use.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
How does the Right in this country consider hard-working people as ‘scum’?[/quote]
Exactly my point.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
If we’re ‘hostile’ to the Japanese in the months before the war, we are obviously trying to provoke them. If we’re friendly to the Japanese at that time, we’re obviously condoning their rape of China.
a
There is no winning with the Left: Just by being Americans, we are guilty of something.
To paraphrase from John Wayne: “No Prospects, you are a loo-loo!” (The Comancheros)[/quote]
I love the way you think, it’s hilarious. First, you group me into the “Leftist” category without a shred of supporting evidence and in spite of the fact that the majority of my posts are clearly made from a Libertarian perspective. This makes it clear that your understanding of political ideologies is dirt poor, or you’re a sonuvabitch who gets off on slandering others.
Having assigned to me this pejorative and utterly false label, you then proceed to toss a red herring into the debate and rebuke a claim that I never made, concluding with a hearty pat of your own back, and a John Wayne quote - no less. Priceless.
So, tell me, when did I mention anything about “condoning the Japanese rape of China” (the existence of which I fully acknowledge)?
For the record, I’ll say it right now: The U.S. should have minded it’s own business rather than agitating for war. Chinese rape or no rape. That is nothing but a straw horse of an argument. The U.S. always acts in its own interest, even in “humanitarian interventions”. Liberals fail to see this. They think they can make distinctions between “good” wars and bad ones. This is why I’m not a liberal in the realm of foreign policy, and even a cursory glance at any of my posts should make it obvious.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
How dare FDR refuse to fuel Japan’s murderous war machine? After all they were only slaughtering Chinese, not Americans.
FDR was asking for it.[/quote]
Straw man. FDR was acting in his own interest (ostensibly America’s) before, during, and after the bombing. At no point in time was the welfare of China or Japan of paramount concern, or any concern, for that matter, to the American admin. If you think otherwise you must hold a naive view of international relations. In politics, there is no such thing as a “good deed”. Every action is previously calculated to have a certain effect, and every party is looking out for himself.
Your point is further discredited by the fact that Japan’s motivation for the attack did NOT come primarily from America’s refusal to fund its war machine, but by ACTIVE HOSTILITY on the part of the U.S. towards that island nation. Hostility which, by it’s very nature, was bound to provoke an attack. It does not require a large leap in faith to raise the possibility that U.S. foreign policy circa 1940 was orchestrated for the purpose of bringing the country into WWII.
Before you start crying “conspiracy theory”, get some background information on the time period and put the accusations into context. Particularly, I would advise you to read up about the America First Committee, which represented the significant Anti-War/Isolationist movement in the U.S. prior to Pearl Harbor, led by Charles Lindbergh.
[quote]hspder wrote:
Sure. As he should – considering the geopolitical situation at the time, what you would expect him to do? Roll the red carpet?
That is very different from basically accusing him of using American people as bait or serving them up as human sacrifice. That theory is right up there with the whole 9/11 “It’s all a conspiracy led by the Jews” theory. Hey, there’s plenty of evidence supporting that too, right?
[/quote]
I stated earlier the course of action which I believe the U.S. ought to have pursued.
I don’t find it at all implausible that the government would withhold information pertaining to a domestic attack provided that it believed it was acting for the greater good.
Don’t let the “conspiracies” confuse you – this is still, at heart, a debate about interventionist vs. non-interventionist foreign policy. Nobody is alleging that the U.S. Government basically decided to let its own people die for the hell of it.
WWII was, and continues to be, seen by the establishment as a war fought for a “good cause”. So what is at stake here is the issue of whether or not the ends justify the means.
But please, don’t just dismiss the McCollum Memo. It is not a figment in the imagination of a conspiracy theorist. It is real and legitimate. The links to the articles I provided were by respectable authors from respectable websites. Please consider them.
^Read this.
Admiral Nimitz turned down the coveted command the pacific fleet [PACCOM] so that he would not become the scapegoat if the Japanese surprise attacked the United States. In a History Channel interview, Admiral Chester Nimitz Jr. described his father’s political maneuver: “He said, ‘It is my guess that the Japanese are going to attack us in a surprise attack. There will be a revulsion in the country against all those in command at sea, and they will be replaced by people in positions of prominence ashore, and I want to be ashore, and not at sea, when that happens.’”
This is from the most prominent online encyclopedia, not some no-name conspiracy hack website.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Why does my reasoning categorize me as a ‘moonbat’? Is it not true that the Left in this country NEVER admits, no matter what conservatives do, that conservatives do some good? Ex: If you help the poor, its: “Well, its trying politicize helping the poor! How dare you!”. If conservatives don’t help the poor: “Oh you greedy bastards! Everything for the RICH!!!” Admit it; the Libs are a bunch of fucking haters! They’ve filled up on ‘Haterade’.[/quote]
A far better question, which nobody has asked, is what the hell does this ranting about liberals have anything to do with a debate over interventionist foreign policy? On this issue, liberals and neocons sit in the exact same boat. There is no underlying distinction between their views – each side favors intervention for its own purposes.
Read this article. It comes off Antiwar.com, it’s anti-liberal, and I agree with it completely.
You have absolutely nothing to go on here. You’re floundering in the wind.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
This is why conservatism is sweeping the world: Germany, Mexico, Australia, Canada, and soon Britain. Conservatism will finally sweep the Marxists/Libs into the dustbin of history. Good riddance!![/quote]
This sounds like something a 7th grader would write, in all honesty. Modern welfare states do not operate on “conservative” principles. Do you think Bush is conservative, you moron? He’s expanded the size of government exponentially and accrued the biggest deficit in history. Yeah, talk about conservative principles.
Neither does any modern state operate even REMOTELY under genuine communist or socialist principles. Shit, even the commie regimes themselves were never operated under strict economic socialism. You’re so ignorant that it’s embarassing.
Conservativism is not sweeping the globe. Neither is communism. What we have now, in modern welfare states, is essentially a form of economic fascism, wherein private property is allowed, but business is closely regulated and tied into government assets. The modern state depends on welfare and warfare for its livelyhood.
Hence, the military-industrial complex which practically owns this country and came about as a result of that “noble venture” that was WWII.
[quote]hspder wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Of course, I’m still confused by your advocacy of DNP use.
When did I “advocate DNP use”? The only thing I advocated was research. And research includes experimentation. Even if it leads to failure and NON-use.
Headhunter wrote:
How does the Right in this country consider hard-working people as ‘scum’?
Exactly my point.
[/quote]
DNP has been around for about 70 or 80 years. People have died when exposed to it. No one knows what dose will cause you to roast yourself to death. It destroys your mitochondria. Its in pesticides for a REASON. But, I guess death is a price worth paying in the spirit of research of a KNOWN POISON?
The second part of your post is still unclear. Explain how Coulter or Hannity and so forth, regard us as ‘scum’.
HH
[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
For the record, I’ll say it right now: The U.S. should have minded it’s own business rather than agitating for war. Chinese rape or no rape. That is nothing but a straw horse of an argument. The U.S. always acts in its own interest, even in “humanitarian interventions”. Liberals fail to see this. They think they can make distinctions between “good” wars and bad ones. This is why I’m not a liberal in the realm of foreign policy, and even a cursory glance at any of my posts should make it obvious.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi[/quote]
What’s wrong with acting in one’s own interest? For whose interests should we be acting?
Preparing for war when you are obviously going to be attacked is NOT PROVOCATION. Getting your attacker to engage before he’s ready is an old tactic. Why are you shocked by this?
HH
[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
How dare FDR refuse to fuel Japan’s murderous war machine? After all they were only slaughtering Chinese, not Americans.
FDR was asking for it.
Straw man. FDR was acting in his own interest (ostensibly America’s) before, during, and after the bombing. At no point in time was the welfare of China or Japan of paramount concern, or any concern, for that matter, to the American admin. If you think otherwise you must hold a naive view of international relations. In politics, there is no such thing as a “good deed”. Every action is previously calculated to have a certain effect, and every party is looking out for himself.
Your point is further discredited by the fact that Japan’s motivation for the attack did NOT come primarily from America’s refusal to fund its war machine, but by ACTIVE HOSTILITY on the part of the U.S. towards that island nation. Hostility which, by it’s very nature, was bound to provoke an attack. It does not require a large leap in faith to raise the possibility that U.S. foreign policy circa 1940 was orchestrated for the purpose of bringing the country into WWII.
Before you start crying “conspiracy theory”, get some background information on the time period and put the accusations into context. Particularly, I would advise you to read up about the America First Committee, which represented the significant Anti-War/Isolationist movement in the U.S. prior to Pearl Harbor, led by Charles Lindbergh.
…[/quote]
I am fully aware of America First and their misguided fascist leanings.
You are hurting your cause by siding with them.
America did not bomb Japan first. Japan attacked first.
America merely tried to starve Japan’s murderous war machine of oil and contain their evil ambition.
Here’s a link that’ll really explain it all, NP. I always am glad to share the truth.
HH
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
DNP has been around for about 70 or 80 years. People have died when exposed to it. No one knows what dose will cause you to roast yourself to death. It destroys your mitochondria. Its in pesticides for a REASON. But, I guess death is a price worth paying in the spirit of research of a KNOWN POISON?[/quote]
As I mentioned before, you clearly haven’t been around scientists much.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
The second part of your post is still unclear. Explain how Coulter or Hannity and so forth, regard us as ‘scum’.[/quote]
It’s fascinating how you keep making my point and missing it…
And no, I’m not going to spell it out for you. I have no doubt that the reason you’re missing it is not for lack of intelligence – it’s because of your dogmas – and to quote Dr. Phil, either you get it or you don’t. Clearly you don’t, so there’s no amount of explanation that will change that.
If that makes me sound like an elitist snob, well, so be it. You already believe I am an elitist snob, and there’s no amount of effort that will change that either, so there’s no point in me trying really hard not to sound like one… It’s actually much more fun to do the exact opposite.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
America did not bomb Japan first. Japan attacked first.
America merely tried to starve Japan’s murderous war machine of oil and contain their evil ambition.[/quote]
Great post, Zap! Right on the mark.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
knewsom wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
There is no winning with the Left: Just by being Americans, we are guilty of something.
I think you need to take another quick look at the “moonbat” thread.
Why does my reasoning categorize me as a ‘moonbat’? Is it not true that the Left in this country NEVER admits, no matter what conservatives do, that conservatives do some good? Ex: If you help the poor, its: “Well, its trying politicize helping the poor! How dare you!”. If conservatives don’t help the poor: “Oh you greedy bastards! Everything for the RICH!!!” Admit it; the Libs are a bunch of fucking haters! They’ve filled up on ‘Haterade’.
This is why conservatism is sweeping the world: Germany, Mexico, Australia, Canada, and soon Britain. Conservatism will finally sweep the Marxists/Libs into the dustbin of history. Good riddance!!
HH
[/quote]
Thank God I haven’t missed much in my absensce from the politics forum…it appears you are still delusional. Not that I thought that it would change, of course.