Non-Agenda-Oriented Solutions

[LIFTICVSMAXIMVS]

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:
Do we think the libertarian wet dream of Somalia is really that successful? I think its pretty easy to see what happens when there really is as little government as completely possible.[/quote]

So you managed to demonstrate what happens when people fight over a power structure. Now prove that a government would be better in its place.

I’ll wait.[/quote]

How long can you stand by and let this shit continue:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10524929[/quote]

Not my business.

[LIFTICVSMAXIMVS]

[quote]pat wrote:
Ideas? LOL! Ideas are the luxury of the rich, compared to most of the world we qualify.
Revolution is not always beautiful. In the hands of evil man, there are no words to describe.
http://washingtonexaminer.com/world/2009/06/atrocities-somalia-force-100000-flee[/quote]

Ideas are what propagate all action.

People will stand up to tyranny based on ideas alone.

[pat]

[quote]kamui wrote:

*being an absolutist doesn’t make you better per se. It only make you better at justifying your ethical principles in an intellectual debate. Not better at following them.
[/quote]
Principles and Ideals are luxuries. Needs trump all *ism’s

*thinking as a moral absolutist doesn’t even mean you will act as a moral absolutist. For example, many european catholics i know are way more “post-modern” and way more relativist than myself in their daily life.

I am not doubting you here, but I want to know what you have observed. Saying your Catholic doesn’t mean you are following the church with is most definitely not relativist. Hell, the italian mafia claims Catholicism, and if you fuck with a Church in their neighborhood you’re meat. But they are hardly following the church’s teachings.

*for the same reason, thinking a moral relativist doesn’t mean you won’t act in a fanatical or radical way. Many european leftists i know could make Torquemada look like an amateur.

I’ve seen it at a distance, in Milan. It was a pretty crazy seen. It doesn’t necessarily speak to action, it’s just says they believe that morality is relative. I have yet to find somebody who would agree that child rape would be ok even if accepted by society. So I think most people intrinsically know morality is not relative, they are just to intellectually dishonest with themselves to admit it.

*I would be curious to see the statistics for the religions claimed by incarcerated people at the time of their arrest. How many of these christians inmates have been (re)converted by religious missionnaries during the jail time ? (and how many of them claimed to be christians because they want to convince the legal institutions they have found God and thus redeemed themselves ?)

Somebody posted it here:
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/bible_belt_highest_divorce_rate?id=4822909&pageNo=1

My argument was that even criminals are smart enough to know there is a God

[groo]

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:
Do we think the libertarian wet dream of Somalia is really that successful? I think its pretty easy to see what happens when there really is as little government as completely possible.[/quote]

So you managed to demonstrate what happens when people fight over a power structure. Now prove that a government would be better in its place.

I’ll wait.[/quote]

A government would be better in its place. Any government would be better which is very telling.
[/quote]

This is not proof. This is your opinion.

[/quote]

No its a fact. It can be discerned by anyone with more than minimal intelligence. You can call it my premise.

Ideas propagate action. Prove this. What do you mean by ideas? I would hazard much more action is precipitated by brute emotion and raw desire than any lofty ideal.

When you are starving and you have a gun and that guy over there has the food its not an idea propagating whats going to occur.

I am all for intellectual arguments, but I think there could be a case made that no government anywhere at anytime in history has done anything to equal the depths of depravity that goes on in Somalia daily. To dismiss this as not my problem? It would be your problem if you lived somewhere with no government. There is no way you believe no government is a good state if you are being intellectually honest.

[LIFTICVSMAXIMVS]

[quote]pat wrote:
My argument was that even criminals are smart enough to know there is a God ;)[/quote]

Or just dumb enough to believe in superstition.

[LIFTICVSMAXIMVS]

[quote]groo wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:
Do we think the libertarian wet dream of Somalia is really that successful? I think its pretty easy to see what happens when there really is as little government as completely possible.[/quote]

So you managed to demonstrate what happens when people fight over a power structure. Now prove that a government would be better in its place.

I’ll wait.[/quote]

A government would be better in its place. Any government would be better which is very telling.
[/quote]

This is not proof. This is your opinion.

[/quote]

No its a fact. It can be discerned by anyone with more than minimal intelligence. You can call it my premise.

Ideas propagate action. Prove this. What do you mean by ideas? I would hazard much more action is precipitated by brute emotion and raw desire than any lofty ideal.

When you are starving and you have a gun and that guy over there has the food its not an idea propagating whats going to occur.

I am all for intellectual arguments, but I think there could be a case made that no government anywhere at anytime in history has done anything to equal the depths of depravity that goes on in Somalia daily. To dismiss this as not my problem? It would be your problem if you lived somewhere with no government. There is no way you believe no government is a good state if you are being intellectually honest.
[/quote]

You cannot act without a proper idea.

QED.

[pat]

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Ideas? LOL! Ideas are the luxury of the rich, compared to most of the world we qualify.
Revolution is not always beautiful. In the hands of evil man, there are no words to describe.
http://washingtonexaminer.com/world/2009/06/atrocities-somalia-force-100000-flee[/quote]

Ideas are what propagate all action.

People will stand up to tyranny based on ideas alone.[/quote]

If you have no food, not water, no shelter and no resources, it doesn’t make a damn what ideas you have. How will these people stand up?

All things are not equal here.

[pat]

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
My argument was that even criminals are smart enough to know there is a God ;)[/quote]

Or just dumb enough to believe in superstition.[/quote]

Or smart enough to recognize existence beyond the senses.

[pat]

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:
Do we think the libertarian wet dream of Somalia is really that successful? I think its pretty easy to see what happens when there really is as little government as completely possible.[/quote]

So you managed to demonstrate what happens when people fight over a power structure. Now prove that a government would be better in its place.

I’ll wait.[/quote]

A government would be better in its place. Any government would be better which is very telling.
[/quote]

This is not proof. This is your opinion.

[/quote]

No its a fact. It can be discerned by anyone with more than minimal intelligence. You can call it my premise.

Ideas propagate action. Prove this. What do you mean by ideas? I would hazard much more action is precipitated by brute emotion and raw desire than any lofty ideal.

When you are starving and you have a gun and that guy over there has the food its not an idea propagating whats going to occur.

I am all for intellectual arguments, but I think there could be a case made that no government anywhere at anytime in history has done anything to equal the depths of depravity that goes on in Somalia daily. To dismiss this as not my problem? It would be your problem if you lived somewhere with no government. There is no way you believe no government is a good state if you are being intellectually honest.
[/quote]

You cannot act without a proper idea.

QED.[/quote]

You can have all the ideas you want, you also cannot act with out resources.

[groo]

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:
Do we think the libertarian wet dream of Somalia is really that successful? I think its pretty easy to see what happens when there really is as little government as completely possible.[/quote]

So you managed to demonstrate what happens when people fight over a power structure. Now prove that a government would be better in its place.

I’ll wait.[/quote]

A government would be better in its place. Any government would be better which is very telling.
[/quote]

This is not proof. This is your opinion.

[/quote]

No its a fact. It can be discerned by anyone with more than minimal intelligence. You can call it my premise.

Ideas propagate action. Prove this. What do you mean by ideas? I would hazard much more action is precipitated by brute emotion and raw desire than any lofty ideal.

When you are starving and you have a gun and that guy over there has the food its not an idea propagating whats going to occur.

I am all for intellectual arguments, but I think there could be a case made that no government anywhere at anytime in history has done anything to equal the depths of depravity that goes on in Somalia daily. To dismiss this as not my problem? It would be your problem if you lived somewhere with no government. There is no way you believe no government is a good state if you are being intellectually honest.
[/quote]

You cannot act without a proper idea.

QED.[/quote]

Please define idea. Are you simply making a tautology with idea being equal to thought? If so that isn’t how you were implying it. Fine I agree with you you cannot act unless your brain sends a series of electrical impulses through a set of nerves.

So great now we have your premise being that to commit any action your brain has to send some electricity somewhere. Or perhaps you mean something else by idea?

[pat]

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:
Do we think the libertarian wet dream of Somalia is really that successful? I think its pretty easy to see what happens when there really is as little government as completely possible.[/quote]

So you managed to demonstrate what happens when people fight over a power structure. Now prove that a government would be better in its place.

I’ll wait.[/quote]

How long can you stand by and let this shit continue:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10524929[/quote]

Not my business.[/quote]

You actually may have no soul.

[LIFTICVSMAXIMVS]

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Ideas? LOL! Ideas are the luxury of the rich, compared to most of the world we qualify.
Revolution is not always beautiful. In the hands of evil man, there are no words to describe.
http://washingtonexaminer.com/world/2009/06/atrocities-somalia-force-100000-flee[/quote]

Ideas are what propagate all action.

People will stand up to tyranny based on ideas alone.[/quote]

If you have no food, not water, no shelter and no resources, it doesn’t make a damn what ideas you have. How will these people stand up?

All things are not equal here.[/quote]

If you don’t have an idea how to end your own starvation you are doomed anyway.

[LIFTICVSMAXIMVS]

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:
Do we think the libertarian wet dream of Somalia is really that successful? I think its pretty easy to see what happens when there really is as little government as completely possible.[/quote]

So you managed to demonstrate what happens when people fight over a power structure. Now prove that a government would be better in its place.

I’ll wait.[/quote]

How long can you stand by and let this shit continue:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10524929[/quote]

Not my business.[/quote]

You actually may have no soul.
[/quote]

No one does.

[LIFTICVSMAXIMVS]

[quote]groo wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:
Do we think the libertarian wet dream of Somalia is really that successful? I think its pretty easy to see what happens when there really is as little government as completely possible.[/quote]

So you managed to demonstrate what happens when people fight over a power structure. Now prove that a government would be better in its place.

I’ll wait.[/quote]

A government would be better in its place. Any government would be better which is very telling.
[/quote]

This is not proof. This is your opinion.

[/quote]

No its a fact. It can be discerned by anyone with more than minimal intelligence. You can call it my premise.

Ideas propagate action. Prove this. What do you mean by ideas? I would hazard much more action is precipitated by brute emotion and raw desire than any lofty ideal.

When you are starving and you have a gun and that guy over there has the food its not an idea propagating whats going to occur.

I am all for intellectual arguments, but I think there could be a case made that no government anywhere at anytime in history has done anything to equal the depths of depravity that goes on in Somalia daily. To dismiss this as not my problem? It would be your problem if you lived somewhere with no government. There is no way you believe no government is a good state if you are being intellectually honest.
[/quote]

You cannot act without a proper idea.

QED.[/quote]

Please define idea. Are you simply making a tautology with idea being equal to thought? If so that isn’t how you were implying it. Fine I agree with you you cannot act unless your brain sends a series of electrical impulses through a set of nerves.

So great now we have your premise being that to commit any action your brain has to send some electricity somewhere. Or perhaps you mean something else by idea?
[/quote]

Concepts. Awareness. Thoughts. Notions. Impressions. Intentions. Opinions. Views. Beliefs.

You can look the meaning up in any dictionary.

[pat]

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:
Do we think the libertarian wet dream of Somalia is really that successful? I think its pretty easy to see what happens when there really is as little government as completely possible.[/quote]

So you managed to demonstrate what happens when people fight over a power structure. Now prove that a government would be better in its place.

I’ll wait.[/quote]

A government would be better in its place. Any government would be better which is very telling.
[/quote]

This is not proof. This is your opinion.

[/quote]

No its a fact. It can be discerned by anyone with more than minimal intelligence. You can call it my premise.

Ideas propagate action. Prove this. What do you mean by ideas? I would hazard much more action is precipitated by brute emotion and raw desire than any lofty ideal.

When you are starving and you have a gun and that guy over there has the food its not an idea propagating whats going to occur.

I am all for intellectual arguments, but I think there could be a case made that no government anywhere at anytime in history has done anything to equal the depths of depravity that goes on in Somalia daily. To dismiss this as not my problem? It would be your problem if you lived somewhere with no government. There is no way you believe no government is a good state if you are being intellectually honest.
[/quote]

You cannot act without a proper idea.

QED.[/quote]

Please define idea. Are you simply making a tautology with idea being equal to thought? If so that isn’t how you were implying it. Fine I agree with you you cannot act unless your brain sends a series of electrical impulses through a set of nerves.

So great now we have your premise being that to commit any action your brain has to send some electricity somewhere. Or perhaps you mean something else by idea?
[/quote]

Concepts. Awareness. Thoughts. Notions. Impressions. Intentions. Opinions. Views. Beliefs.

You can look the meaning up in any dictionary.
[/quote]
None of which mean shit with out resources.

[groo]

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:
Do we think the libertarian wet dream of Somalia is really that successful? I think its pretty easy to see what happens when there really is as little government as completely possible.[/quote]

So you managed to demonstrate what happens when people fight over a power structure. Now prove that a government would be better in its place.

I’ll wait.[/quote]

A government would be better in its place. Any government would be better which is very telling.
[/quote]

This is not proof. This is your opinion.

[/quote]

No its a fact. It can be discerned by anyone with more than minimal intelligence. You can call it my premise.

Ideas propagate action. Prove this. What do you mean by ideas? I would hazard much more action is precipitated by brute emotion and raw desire than any lofty ideal.

When you are starving and you have a gun and that guy over there has the food its not an idea propagating whats going to occur.

I am all for intellectual arguments, but I think there could be a case made that no government anywhere at anytime in history has done anything to equal the depths of depravity that goes on in Somalia daily. To dismiss this as not my problem? It would be your problem if you lived somewhere with no government. There is no way you believe no government is a good state if you are being intellectually honest.
[/quote]

You cannot act without a proper idea.

QED.[/quote]

Please define idea. Are you simply making a tautology with idea being equal to thought? If so that isn’t how you were implying it. Fine I agree with you you cannot act unless your brain sends a series of electrical impulses through a set of nerves.

So great now we have your premise being that to commit any action your brain has to send some electricity somewhere. Or perhaps you mean something else by idea?
[/quote]

Concepts. Awareness. Thoughts. Notions. Impressions. Intentions. Opinions. Views. Beliefs.

You can look the meaning up in any dictionary.
[/quote]

Thats not how you were using it. You think you are being tricky or maybe you’re just not that quick. You took one very specific meaning of a word. Then when pressed you try to broaden the word so much as to be meaningless so you can’t be called on statements you present as true.

You were referring to idea more as an ideal. Don’t be a pussy and try to equate it with all mental states humans have.

Its still a fact that any government would be better than the state of affairs in Somalia. If you want a proof to fight with.

A There is a terrible amount of suffering and death in Somalia now.
B Any government would lessen this amount of suffering. Some by more than others.
C The lessening of suffering and premature violent death is a state to be worked toward.

Thus
D Some government should be put in place in Somalia.

[ironcross]

[quote]ephrem wrote:
I’m not going to watch the lecture orion. No doubt it’ll be as onesided as your viewpoints.

Please give me an example of a failed monopoly or cartel when relevant regulations to prevent them were absent.[/quote]

Can we go back to this? Still waiting.

[LIFTICVSMAXIMVS]

[quote]ironcross wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
I’m not going to watch the lecture orion. No doubt it’ll be as onesided as your viewpoints.

Please give me an example of a failed monopoly or cartel when relevant regulations to prevent them were absent.[/quote]

Can we go back to this? Still waiting.[/quote]

The technology industry is the least regulated and therefore the most free. In this sector there are no monopolies and there are no cartels.

[LIFTICVSMAXIMVS]

[quote]groo wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:
Do we think the libertarian wet dream of Somalia is really that successful? I think its pretty easy to see what happens when there really is as little government as completely possible.[/quote]

So you managed to demonstrate what happens when people fight over a power structure. Now prove that a government would be better in its place.

I’ll wait.[/quote]

A government would be better in its place. Any government would be better which is very telling.
[/quote]

This is not proof. This is your opinion.

[/quote]

No its a fact. It can be discerned by anyone with more than minimal intelligence. You can call it my premise.

Ideas propagate action. Prove this. What do you mean by ideas? I would hazard much more action is precipitated by brute emotion and raw desire than any lofty ideal.

When you are starving and you have a gun and that guy over there has the food its not an idea propagating whats going to occur.

I am all for intellectual arguments, but I think there could be a case made that no government anywhere at anytime in history has done anything to equal the depths of depravity that goes on in Somalia daily. To dismiss this as not my problem? It would be your problem if you lived somewhere with no government. There is no way you believe no government is a good state if you are being intellectually honest.
[/quote]

You cannot act without a proper idea.

QED.[/quote]

Please define idea. Are you simply making a tautology with idea being equal to thought? If so that isn’t how you were implying it. Fine I agree with you you cannot act unless your brain sends a series of electrical impulses through a set of nerves.

So great now we have your premise being that to commit any action your brain has to send some electricity somewhere. Or perhaps you mean something else by idea?
[/quote]

Concepts. Awareness. Thoughts. Notions. Impressions. Intentions. Opinions. Views. Beliefs.

You can look the meaning up in any dictionary.
[/quote]

Thats not how you were using it. You think you are being tricky or maybe you’re just not that quick. You took one very specific meaning of a word. Then when pressed you try to broaden the word so much as to be meaningless so you can’t be called on statements you present as true.

You were referring to idea more as an ideal. Don’t be a pussy and try to equate it with all mental states humans have.

Its still a fact that any government would be better than the state of affairs in Somalia. If you want a proof to fight with.

A There is a terrible amount of suffering and death in Somalia now.
B Any government would lessen this amount of suffering. Some by more than others.
C The lessening of suffering and premature violent death is a state to be worked toward.

Thus
D Some government should be put in place in Somalia.
[/quote]

Governments are responsible for suffering and death.

In order to lessen suffering it would have to first create more suffering and death.

Civilization arose out of cooperation sans government.

[ephrem]

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]ironcross wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
I’m not going to watch the lecture orion. No doubt it’ll be as onesided as your viewpoints.

Please give me an example of a failed monopoly or cartel when relevant regulations to prevent them were absent.[/quote]

Can we go back to this? Still waiting.[/quote]

The technology industry is the least regulated and therefore the most free. In this sector there are no monopolies and there are no cartels.[/quote]

There are a couple of very big players in the field of technology that produce 70 to 80% of modern hardware. Think Foxconn and Samsung, companies like that.

But this isn’t an answer to the question, is it?