religion is the worst thing that has ever happened to man kind!
There is much more to this story that will come out real soon. Berg was investigated by the FBI when he was at Oklahoma University for exchanging e-mail and the like with a known terrorist. Zacharious Massoui (sp?) if I’m not mistaken.
There's more to this story than meets the eye.
With that said, he was not a combatant. He was brutally killed by individuals that have yet to join the family of man. They are sub-humans that need to be liquidated.
Dustin
Dustin, Nick was “investigated” by the FBI (then cleared) because his e-mail account was unknowingly used by Zacharias
Moussawi…while he was a student at the Univ. of Oklhaoma. It turns out his account was given to some fellow students, who then somehow let it get to Moussawi. Not exactly scandalous.
So, no…there isn’t more than meets the eye to that angle. He was an innocent guy, and was murdered because he was a Jewish American, just like Daniel Pearl was. Obviously, the publicized beheadings of Jews (especially American ones) holds a special place in the hearts of these terrorists…
As far as responsibility goes, how about blaming the murderers? They’re the ones who fucking killed the man! They didn’t have to, and they gained nothing material from it. This wasn’t resistance to occupation, folks…it was bloodlust!
Nick went to Iraq because he was into that sort of “adventerous lifestyle” and obviously liked being challenged. Not by terrorists, mind you, but by the idea that one man can make a difference. He had done similar things before in his life, and he never should have expected to be beheaded. That’s stupid to even think. Honestly, people.
I have no desire to visit Iraq, or Afghanistan, or Bosnia, because that just ain’t my sort of thing. But, I respect those who do want to make a difference, either as businessmen or charity workers. To say that they are “asking for it” is like saying that people who drive are just asking to be killed or injured in a car accident. Stupid.
Here’s another observation: so far, two American Jews have been beheaded on video by Islamic fanatics…and don’t think that this goes unnoticed in the Islamic world. I have a sneaking suspicion that the terrorists are trying to use the age-old Jew hatred there as justification for these acts. After all, both acts were obviously well-planned and conceived by major terrorists, unlike the vile mob scenes in Iraq that took charred American bodies and hung them from bridges. These beheadings were methodical killings of innocents, hardly indiscriminate, nor the result of “resistance.” They were messages…not to the US, but to the Muslims who Al-Qaeda seeks to influence.
So, we need to ask ourselves why they think beheading American Jews would get them respect. My answer is that it serves to strike at the two most hated groups of their blood cult: Americans and Jews. Is this realy a surprise to anyone?
A pox on anyone who says, “It was awful, BUT…”
Support our troops. May their aim be true.
Jeff.
Jeff…agreed!
LittleJay-This is the new liberal United States. Its our fault.
Goldie…you’re right, I thought I was back in Israel for a sec…wait, they’re turning into a bunch of liberal, self-hating pricks, too! After all, the only reason that Arabs hate Israel is because of their occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, right! And the real reason they hate America is because we support Israel!
Now I get it. al-Qaeda would never exist if we just stayed in Kansas and kept to our BBQ’s. Yeah, that’s it! It’s all our fault. Hey, UN and EU…we admit it. We’re evil, and the terorists are just freedom-loving nobleman out for equal rights and justice. Nick Berg must have been one of those Zionist conspirators plotting the demise of all Islam, along with his buddy, Dan Pearl. Throw in those evil American security guards who were left burned and hanging from the bridge in Iraq (they were probably just transporting Nick Berg anyway) and it all makes perfect sense now.
We surrender. Let’s get the troops back and close our borders forever. Free pizza and beer for all Americans who are with me (not)!
;-}
What percentage of Americans do you think get it like Goldberg and LittleJay? I’ve got kids, and I really worry about their future.
You guys are making shit up.
Who said anything about fault? I did see a comment stating that you’d have to be a bit reckless to go visit Iraq these days. Duh.
My own comments are simply to the effect that blowing shit up isn’t going to make the issue go away. Duh.
Everything else says it was horrible and useless and the guys that did it deserve to die, to go to hell, to get whatever it is that bad people deserve. Duh.
Fuck, just because people don’t jump up and down parroting your viewpoint doesn’t mean they disagree y’know.
my question is wtf do we do now?
hiroshima comes to mind but i think thats out of the question in these times.
we cant pull out because then the entire mission is a faliure and the fucking cock sucker terrorists will have won.
again wtf do we do now?
To some it does. Many westerners are just as blind in their convictions as are the fundamentalist terrorists: be it religion, politics, or training methods.
To merely question them or to present an alternative argument is the equivalent of throwing down the gauntlet.
In the Iraq conflict we have two sides with completely opposing convictions and people like Berg get caught in the middle.
Yes it was brutal and heinous but does it ultimately affect the campaign in Iraq?
LittleJay,
I'm not trying to imply that Nick Berg was up to no good. This whole thing just seems odd. Is not a hell of a coincidence that Nick had contact with Massaoui? They just happened to meet? The Iraqi officials also believed Berg was working for the Israeli government.
Nick's father earlier today said the following, "I am sure that he only saw the good in his captors until the last second of his life," "They did not know what they were doing. They killed their best friend."
Does that not seem like an odd statement? I don't know, you may be right. Maybe this situation is cut and dry and I'm looking into this too much.
Again, I'm not impying any wrong doing by Nick Berg, just making some observations that stood out to me.
Dustin (I'll go back to lurking now)
LittleJay,
Here's an article that goes into more detail on what I was pointing out. Take it for what you will. I got this article from cbsnews.com
Bizarre New Link In Berg Murder
May 13, 2004
A CIA official said Thursday that U.S. intelligence officials have concluded that terrorist leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was, in “high probability,” the person shown on a video beheading American Nicholas Berg, based on an analysis of the voice on the video.
The speaker on the video, now believed to be al-Zarqawi, reads a lengthy statement criticizing Islamic scholars and taunting the crusaders. Standing alongside four other militants wearing headscarves and masks to disguise themselves, al-Zarqawi then kills Berg.
Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, told reporters Thursday in Baghdad that it appears al-Zarqawi was responsible. The U.S. military has already posted a $10 million reward for Zarqawi for having orchestrated some of the deadliest terrorist attacks in Iraq.
Initially, Berg’s murder seemed to be a case of an eccentric young American who was in the wrong place at the worst possible time – just as the revelations of American mistreatment of iraqi prisoners were coming to light.
But CBS News National Security Correspondent David Martin reports on what is turning into a bizarre mystery with a connection to 9/11.
U.S. officials say the FBI questioned Berg in 2002 after a computer password Berg used in college turned up in the possession of Zaccarias Moussaoui, the al Qaeda operative arrested shortly before 9/11 for his suspicious activity at a flight school in Minnesota.
The bureau had already dismissed the connection between Berg and Moussaoui as nothing more than a college student who had been careless about protecting his password.
But in the wake of Berg’s gruesome murder, it becomes a stranger than fiction coincidence – an American who inadvertently gave away his computer password to one notorious al Qaeda operative is later murdered by another notorious al Qaeda operative.
Berg’s body was found Saturday in Baghdad. Two e-mails he sent to his family and friends show he traveled widely and unguarded throughout Iraq, an unsafe practice rarely done by Westerners.
On Tuesday, an Islamic Web site released the video, titled “Sheikh Abu Musab al-Zarqawi slaughters an American infidel with his own hands.”
Al-Zarqawi is thought to be in Iraq, operating his own terrorist network, known simply as the “Zarqawi network.” A specialist in poisons, he is thought to have extensive ties across the militant Islamic movement and is considered an ally of Osama bin Laden.
As recently as March, U.S. officials said al-Zarqawi’s practice was not to make taped public pronouncements or take credit for attacks. However, in the last five weeks, he has increased his public profile with at least three recordings, including Berg’s beheading.
Martin reports that in at least one other case, a high-level al Qaeda operative has personally carried out a brutal killing. Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the suspected Sept. 11 mastermind now in U.S. custody, is widely believed to have killed Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl.
Meanwhile Thursday, new details emerged about Berg’s last weeks in Iraq ? a timeline that has been contested by his family and the U.S. government.
Authorities in Baghdad denied that Berg, 26, was held in U.S. custody before he disappeared in early April, despite claims to the contrary by his family. The authorities said he had been held by Iraqi police for about two weeks and questioned by FBI agents three times.
In Baghdad, U.S. spokesmen Dan Senor said that “to my knowledge” Berg was not affiliated with any U.S. or coalition organization, nor was he ever in U.S. custody.
Iraqi police arrested Berg in Mosul on March 24 because local authorities believed he may have been involved in “suspicious activities,” Senor said. He refused to elaborate, except to confirm that the Americans were aware Berg was in custody.
Berg was released April 6 and “was advised to leave the country,” Senor added. Instead, Berg checked into a Baghdad hotel.
Berg had told friends he was arrested by Iraqi police in Mosul because he had an Israeli stamp in his passport. In e-mails released by his family, Berg wrote about his experiences in trying to track down and later meet an in-law in the Mosul area.
In Mosul, police chief Maj. Gen. Mohammed Khair al-Barhawi insisted Thursday that his department had never arrested Berg and maintained he had no knowledge of the case.
“The Iraqi police never arrested the slain American,” al-Barhawi told reporters. “Take it from me … that such reports are baseless.”
Since Iraq remains under U.S. military occupation, it seems unlikely that the Iraqi police would have held Berg, or any other American, for such a length of time without at least the tacit approval of U.S. authorities.
“The Iraqi police do not tell the FBI what to do, the FBI tells the Iraqi police what to do,” Berg’s father, Michael Berg told the AP. “Who do they think they’re kidding?”
The younger Berg told his family that U.S. officials took custody of him soon after his arrest and he was not allowed to make phone calls or contact a lawyer, his father said.
Kimmitt said U.S. forces kept tabs on Berg during his confinement to make sure he was being fed and properly treated because “he was an American citizen.”
But the three FBI visits suggest American authorities were concerned about more than Berg’s well-being. They may have had their own suspicions about what the young American was doing in Iraq.
Two e-mails Berg sent to his family and friends show he traveled widely and unguarded throughout Iraq, an unsafe practice rarely done by Westerners.
Shortly before Berg’s disappearance, he was warned by the FBI that Iraq was too volatile a place for unprotected American civilians and that he could be harmed, a senior FBI official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Wednesday.
Officials said the U.S. government warned Berg to leave Iraq, and offered him a flight out of the country, a month before his grisly death.
On April 10, four days after Berg was released from an Iraqi prison, an American diplomat offered to put him on a flight to Jordan, State Department spokeswoman Kelly Shannon said.
But Berg told the diplomat he “planned to travel overland to Kuwait and would call (his) family from there,” Shannon said.
Michael Berg said that although his son wanted to leave Iraq, he refused the flight offer because he thought the travel to the airport would be too dangerous.
Some things to consider :
In fallujah in the two week offensive close to 400 civilians died.
One of our civilians was killed albeit in a brutal fashion.
What If the shoe were on the other foot? What If there were a hundred thousand Iraqis in my country and they managed to kill 400 of my people in a single city?
You think it would make a difference if one person from the same country showed up wanting to do business ?
Just something to consider not a justification for barbarous acts.
God (or whatever/whomever you believe in) rest his soul.
Dustin, I appreciate your honest attempt to understand this thing…
Here are some simple pointers to keep in mind (by all means reasearch them on your own):
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Anyone who is Jewish is suspected by many (most?) Arabs of being an Israeli Mossad agent, or something to that effect when it comes to their presence in Arab countries. Just look at what they say about every Jew in the State Department or US Administration, both past and present. So, it doesn’t surprise me that Iraqis might be suspicious of a Jew walking around with an Israeli-stamped passport. This sort of bizzare hatred of Jews and Israel is common in the Arab world.
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Moussawi getting a fake e-mail address from some unsuspecting college student is not really a surprise: he was a terrorist who didn’t want to use his own (traceable) adrdess, so he got someone else’s…this happens all the time, and I’m a system administrator for more than 3000 e-mail users so I’d know. The fact that Berg was obviously one of those free-wheeling types fits into this profile for not being paranoid about protecting his e-mail password. Let’s face it, this happened when he was in college!
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An Iraqi offical making these claims about a murdered American is hardly surprising…do you expect them to admit that they held a US citizen and thus (partially) were responsible for his death? Besides, these folks are the same ones who think that Jews control American policy, so let’s keep that in mind, too.
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Finally, remeber the situation in Iraq before Berg was abducted: US soldiers were being targeted, so it’s not like Nick would have felt particularly safe traveling with them…especially considering his independent streak.
I just don’t see much of an issue with this whole “more than meets the eye” thing.
Hmm. Its a little odd that some random college student gets their e-mail address hijacked by a terrorist and then is killed 3-4 years later by another terrorist of the same organization. That isn’t reading into anything. What are the chances of a group that probably has a couple of thousand members (or whatever it is) hijacking someone’s email address randomly and then a few years later kills the same guy in Iraq?
This is difficult for me to say, as that video really messed with my stomach, and I’d as soon have it out of my mind forever, but you don’t start a fight and then handicap yourself with rules when your enemy follows no rules. I think that’s what we’ve done here. I’m neither an expert in international politics nor military strategy, but I do feel strongly that we need to either get the fuck out, or completely annihilate the enemy.
I’m sure many will find this ignorant, ill-considered, hawkish, whatever…it is! I can’t get those images out of my head, but for whatever it’s worth, my father is of Persian descent and there are muslims in my family. And I can’t honestly say that I believe most muslims will be terribly upset with that video, a thought which confuses and upsets me deeply.
Ramo: Exactly. The problem is how do you get rid of them all? I don’t think we need to target the 99.9% of the people who aren’t terrorists here. This isn’t the only place on earth where this happens and it seems to be related mostly to one group of people imposing their traditions and lifestyles on other people. We don’t need to support Isreal, let them deal with their own problems.
Yes, Nick Berg was Jewish. As for the relationship between antisemitism and anti-Americanism in Iraq, I found this article astounding:
Babylonian Hostility
In Iraq, the Jews – and anti-Semitism – are everywhere
by Nir Rosen
Last August, when Imam Mahdi al Jumeili of the small Hudheifa Mosque in Baghdad’s Shurti neighborhood met three American officers to resolve a dispute over soldiers entering the grounds of his mosque, his first question was, “Are any of you Jews?” When he was satisfied that none was, he allowed the meeting to proceed. Prior to the Americans’ arrival, he had voiced his views about them. “We are sure they came here to steal the country and protect Israel,” he said, adding that “Judaism and Masonism are at war with Islam.”
Such views are common in Iraq, where “al Yahud” – “the Jews” – are everywhere. Purportedly serious works about the Jewish threat, including Arabic editions of the notorious czarist forgery The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, are available in every book market. The widespread acceptance of outlandish fantasies about Jewish infiltration and manipulation demonstrates the degree to which Iraqis, whose views were shaped by years of authoritarian control, misunderstand and fear the outside world. The anti-Semitic paranoia is one measure of how difficult the transition to liberal democracy will be.
For a journalist, not a day goes by without mention of Jews and Israel. “We are Muslims!” a taxi driver declared proudly during an evening ride to a hotel. “And Jews come to our land?” When asked to whom he was referring, he said: “They are all Jews. The Americans are all Jews and mercenaries. We know their religion.” Another taxi driver explained that “America and the Jews are one. We know this from their interests, their relationships, and America’s defense of the Jews…America and Jews are the same because they have the same goals and the same faith.” An angry man in the market of Abu Ghraib, a town west of Baghdad, explained that “the Americans are Jews. Their work is Jewish. Nobody accepts them.”
Last summer and fall, signs on the walls of the Abu Hanifa mosque warned Iraqis that Jews had come to the Ekal Hotel and planned to purchase land, just as they did in Palestine, to drive Iraqis out of their country. “Do not stab your fellow Iraqis in the heart” by selling land to the Jews, the signs exhorted. A visit to the Ekal Hotel proved that it was closed for renovations and had no guests.
In November, at the Rahman Mosque in Baghdad’s Mansour district, faithful Shi’ites heard Sheikh Ali al Ibrahimi condemn a decision by the Iraqi Governing Council to let certain non-Iraqis obtain Iraqi citizenship. Ibrahimi warned that “if Jews reside in Iraq, then they will become Iraqi citizens, and they will own Iraq and we will be their guests.”
The widespread Iraqi hostility toward Jews stands in contrast to a more ambivalent Muslim tradition. Although the Koran frequently condemns Jews, it mandates a modus vivendi with them, relegating them to an inferior but protected status. Historically the Muslim attitude toward Jews lacked the racial element of European anti-Semitism, holding that if a Jew converted he was to be treated like any other Muslim. But the conflict over Palestine, the creation of Israel and its defeat of Arabs and occupation of their land, intensified anti-Jewish feeling. Arab and Muslim authors began to adopt European racist and anti-Semitic theories about Jewish conspiracies to explain Israel’s existence, strength, and American support.
Those seeking to give these theories religious legitimacy have little trouble finding support in the Koran, a sprawling work with many passages that are open to interpretation. “Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and pagans,” instructs verse 5:85, implying that Jews and pagans are of equal stature as enemies of Muslims and God. The Koran describes Jews as disobedient and treacherous unbelievers, rejecting God and His messengers. The Jewish worship of the golden calf after God made a covenant with them (2:92-3) and their recurring violations of pacts made with the Prophet Mohammed (8:56-8) show they are not to be trusted. According to the “cow” chapter (2:88), “God’s curse is on them for their blasphemy. Little is it they believe.” Other verses imply that Jews “shall be the companions of hell fire” (4:86), describe them as bragging about killing Jesus (4:157), and call their deeds “evil” (4:79-80). Thus the basis exists, for those who choose to use it, to promote the hostility and palpable fear of Jews that confront journalists in Iraq on a daily basis.
Iraqi newspapers have helped spread the panic about a Jewish invasion. Last summer, the independent Sunni Al-Sa’ah warned Iraqis to check Chinese-made appliances for concealed Stars of David because the Israelis would be surreptitiously selling their products in Iraq. The independent Iraqi daily Al-Yawm Al-Aakher reported that “the frantic campaign to resettle the Jews [in Iraq] has aroused the annoyance of Iraqis, particularly the clerics.” On July 10, Al-’Adala, a newspaper published by the Supreme Council of the Islamic Revolution, warned that “a number of Jews are attempting to purchase factories in Baghdad.” Dar Al-Salam, a newspaper owned by the Iraqi Islamic Party, reported on the same day that Mosul’s association of clerics issued an edict prohibiting the sale of land to non-Iraqis lest it end up in the hands of Jews.
Such accounts are taken quite seriously. It seems nearly everyone in Baghdad has a friend or relative who has seen Jews buying land.
Nir Rosen, a freelance journalist, has been living in Baghdad since April 2003.