New Iraqi Strategy

[quote]JeffR wrote:

That is a complete falsehood. Further, you know it.

That makes it worse.

Here is an absolutely fascinating collection of the WMD finds in Iraq so far.

Remember as you are reading about them, how little press they received.

Kudos to this guy for doing what Bush isn’t apparently willing to do: Keeping track.

http://www.bizzyblog.com/?p=2786

There were some that I knew about. For instance the 500 sarin nerve gas shells. However, what was chilling was the nearly two tons of enriched uranium removed, 1,000 pounds of powdered and easily dispersed uranium.

[/quote]

Jeffr’s credibility now in negative territory…

Uhmm…no. Iraq did not have the stockpiles of WMD “we” were looking for.

Have we found the odd degraded shell misplaced or disregarded in 1981, or items under IAEA seal? Uh, yes. Is this too embarassing for even the nuttiest of wankers in the admin to mention…?

Yes.
Except for Jeffry, and oh, Rick Santorum.

But it doesn’t matter because we are there to bring Jeffersonian democracy to Iraqis… wait…update from the president…the current objective in Iraq is:

BUSH: Either we’ll succeed, or we won’t succeed. And the definition of success as I described is sectarian violence down. Success is not, no violence.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
I do have fun at your expense.

Hey, certainly not perfect, but, it is most certainly a “bud.” [/quote]

Must be kidding me! Who the fuck cares about municipal elections?

This was a bone thrown to idiots like you (yeah, when you can’t even admit that no WMDs were found in Iraq, you qualify for that label!) to cover the feudal absolut monarchy. Did I mention 15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 were from that kingdom?

A “bud”, in the context of democracy, implies a strong feminist and youth movement. The Saudis are NOWHERE near the Iranians on democracy. You obviously don’t have a clue as to how those political systems function.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Then I pointed out that he kicked out the inspectors in 1998.

Since nothing changed in Saudi Arabia, your premise was flawed.

I think you know that.[/quote]

More crap. Situations will change. You react and adapt. The inspectors were eventually let back in. People under embargo or blockade will occasionally attempt to set up situations where they can position themselves in a better negotiating position.

Look at North Korea. Not only did they kick everyone out and ignore treaties; they’ve even detonated an actual nuclear bomb and tested missiles they could use for delivery.

Your reaction? International pressure and negotiation.

In fact, one of the factors for you going into Iraq was exactly because Saddam posed no real threat and you knew you wouldn’t be met with WMDs. Public support for the war dwindles very fast when casualties arrive early in the high thousands.

Ha ha ha! You poor dumb clown. Let me ask you this: Why didn’t the administration mention those finds? They were under close public scrutiny and producing any trace of WMDs would’ve validated their initial claims.

I’ll let you in on a little fact, my buffoony friend: you, as usual, omitted a few details from consideration. Those two tons of enriched uranium where LOW-enriched uranium. That type of enriched uranium can only be used as reactor fuel; not to make nuclear weapons.

That’s why we never heard of it. Even your current administration wasn’t stupid enough (and they really push the envelope on stupid) to try and make that claim.

But of course, you are. Truthful master of pure facts that you are.

Easy dodge. I find it odd that you, who never misses an occasion to “correct” anyone ever, is suddenly unable to respond to so many arguments…

Even the easy ones: How many of your planes did Saddam shoot down? Just a number will do. How long can that take?

So keep ignoring half of what I write and wasting that time you don’t have in pathetic Mastercard commercial parodies. Your humor is as weak and pathetic as the rest of your arguments, but at least it’s an HONEST attempt.

[quote]lixy wrote:
JeffR wrote:
Such nonsense. If we were actually thinking of attacking the Saudi’s, you’d be their greatest defenders.

Like your love with the iranians.

My “love with the Iranians” as you put it, is merely an obversation that they are their system is the closest to a democracy any country has come to in the whole region (with the exception of our beloved Israel).

[/quote]

Wow! Just…wow!!

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
lixy wrote:
JeffR wrote:
Such nonsense. If we were actually thinking of attacking the Saudi’s, you’d be their greatest defenders.

Like your love with the iranians.

My “love with the Iranians” as you put it, is merely an obversation that they are their system is the closest to a democracy any country has come to in the whole region (with the exception of our beloved Israel).

Wow! Just…wow!!

[/quote]

Staggering isn’t it.

Iran’s democracy is a sham. The people get to chose from a group of candidates picked by the mullahs. Some choice.

He is ignoring the true democracies in Iraq and Afghanistan where people actually risked their lives to vote

Lebanon has a democracy even though we do not like many of those elected.

[quote]100meters wrote:
JeffR wrote:

That is a complete falsehood. Further, you know it.

That makes it worse.

Here is an absolutely fascinating collection of the WMD finds in Iraq so far.

Remember as you are reading about them, how little press they received.

Kudos to this guy for doing what Bush isn’t apparently willing to do: Keeping track.

http://www.bizzyblog.com/?p=2786

There were some that I knew about. For instance the 500 sarin nerve gas shells. However, what was chilling was the nearly two tons of enriched uranium removed, 1,000 pounds of powdered and easily dispersed uranium.

Jeffr’s credibility now in negative territory…

Uhmm…no. Iraq did not have the stockpiles of WMD “we” were looking for.

Have we found the odd degraded shell misplaced or disregarded in 1981, or items under IAEA seal? Uh, yes. Is this too embarassing for even the nuttiest of wankers in the admin to mention…?

Yes.
Except for Jeffry, and oh, Rick Santorum.

But it doesn’t matter because we are there to bring Jeffersonian democracy to Iraqis… wait…update from the president…the current objective in Iraq is:

BUSH: Either we’ll succeed, or we won’t succeed. And the definition of success as I described is sectarian violence down. Success is not, no violence.
[/quote]

Poor lumpy,

You are so far behind, you think you are ahead.

Silly, deluded, lumpy.

Oh, how many tons of enriched uranium? How many flights to syria? What do the Poles think about chemical tipped weaponery? How much money into R & D?

I don’t like spending too much time on you lumpy. I’m fully aware that even if we found a million tons of WMD, you’d explain it away or change the subject.

It’s your way.

JeffR

[quote]lixy wrote:
JeffR wrote:
I do have fun at your expense.

Hey, certainly not perfect, but, it is most certainly a “bud.”

Must be kidding me! Who the fuck cares about municipal elections?

This was a bone thrown to idiots like you (yeah, when you can’t even admit that no WMDs were found in Iraq, you qualify for that label!) to cover the feudal absolut monarchy. Did I mention 15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 were from that kingdom?

A “bud”, in the context of democracy, implies a strong feminist and youth movement. The Saudis are NOWHERE near the Iranians on democracy. You obviously don’t have a clue as to how those political systems function.[/quote]

lixy,

Stop boring me with your drivel. You were adamant that they were “centuries away from democracy.”

Did you read the stories about how happy people were to be voting for the first time?

Notice the participation percentage of eligible voters?

Once they get a sniff, the dictators won’t be able to stop democracy. We’ve seen it from 1776 to 1789 to 2006 in Iraq.

Finally, you certainly applied the feminist/youth movement addendum AFTER I proved you to be a dunce.

Oh, if that was the criteria then the U.S. didn’t have a democracy from 1776 until the 1920’s.

In summary, you are a dink who gets called on the carpet without the sack to admit error.

My original commentary has been confirmed: You wouldn’t support an attack on a primarily Muslim country no matter the provocation.

End of story.

JeffR

[quote]lixy wrote:

All of your arguments crumble when contemplating the Pakistani situation.[/quote]

Hmm - you keep peddling this, and it isn’t true. You continually overrate yourself.

And interestingly, Pakistan abuts Afghanistan, where the US waged a war. Strategically, if you are going to go in one country with all-out combat, it might make sense to work with an abutting country instead of flattening it.

I realize actual military strategy is nowhere found in your personal body of knowledge, but the decision not to outrightly attack Pakistan is not - repeat, not - evidence of a bad faith motive to go into Iraq.

Managing Pakistan as an asset is a strategic choice.

And what does Saddam’s “secularity” have to do with anything? The intelligence said Saddam could be nuclear in 6 or so years - his “secularity” is irrelevant to the fact that Saddam was interested in arming and harming those he called enemies.

We defanged that viper. If that disturbs your naive peacenik viewpoints, too bad - it was high time we put our fist under the nose of those that would aim to harm us, and guess what? Rogue countries are now on notice that we aren’t the “weak horse” of bin Laden’s description.

I don’t doubt there is an element of stragetic control, but not because of “the oil”. If we wanted cheap oil, we would have bought in on the sly from Saddam like Russia and France. Think of how smart that would have been if oil was our primary strategic target.

As is, the choice to go into Iraq was a risk - no one disputes that, even the war’s supporters. But you keep offering evidence of “bad faith” when there it is not evidence at all - and your propaganda is left wanting.

Again, people can criticize the Iraq war as a mistake, a bad choice, or stupid - but these attempts to characterize it as the product of an evil “bad faith” conspiracy fail to impress. But don’t let that stop you - you have an ideological master to satisfy, regardless of facts.

[quote]pookie wrote:
JeffR wrote:
Then I pointed out that he kicked out the inspectors in 1998.

Since nothing changed in Saudi Arabia, your premise was flawed.

I think you know that.

More crap. Situations will change. You react and adapt. The inspectors were eventually let back in. People under embargo or blockade will occasionally attempt to set up situations where they can position themselves in a better negotiating position.

Look at North Korea. Not only did they kick everyone out and ignore treaties; they’ve even detonated an actual nuclear bomb and tested missiles they could use for delivery.

Your reaction? International pressure and negotiation.

In fact, one of the factors for you going into Iraq was exactly because Saddam posed no real threat and you knew you wouldn’t be met with WMDs. Public support for the war dwindles very fast when casualties arrive early in the high thousands.

There were some that I knew about. For instance the 500 sarin nerve gas shells. However, what was chilling was the nearly two tons of enriched uranium removed, 1,000 pounds of powdered and easily dispersed uranium.

Ha ha ha! You poor dumb clown. Let me ask you this: Why didn’t the administration mention those finds? They were under close public scrutiny and producing any trace of WMDs would’ve validated their initial claims.

I’ll let you in on a little fact, my buffoony friend: you, as usual, omitted a few details from consideration. Those two tons of enriched uranium where LOW-enriched uranium. That type of enriched uranium can only be used as reactor fuel; not to make nuclear weapons.

That’s why we never heard of it. Even your current administration wasn’t stupid enough (and they really push the envelope on stupid) to try and make that claim.

But of course, you are. Truthful master of pure facts that you are.

The rest of your post was complete rubbish not worthy of my time.

Easy dodge. I find it odd that you, who never misses an occasion to “correct” anyone ever, is suddenly unable to respond to so many arguments…

Even the easy ones: How many of your planes did Saddam shoot down? Just a number will do. How long can that take?

So keep ignoring half of what I write and wasting that time you don’t have in pathetic Mastercard commercial parodies. Your humor is as weak and pathetic as the rest of your arguments, but at least it’s an HONEST attempt.

[/quote]

pookie,

As I read your post, it occurred to me that I’m getting closer to opening your mind. I’m challenging your locked down mind. You don’t like it.

There are so many errors in your posts, that I cannot correct them all.

I’ll take on a few at at time.

First, we absolutely thought we were going to be hit by WMD in 2003. We’ve determined that we were hit by them in 1991.

Remember the troops wearing gas masks? How about the Iraqi commanders wearing them? How about Bush warning the commanders not to launch them or face war crimes trials?

Error number one corrected.

Next, they shot down zero planes. Why don’t you ask the guys flying if that’s any comfort. So in your world, what was the purpose of shooting at them? To make a political statement?

In summary, if someone is swinging at you, they are looking for a fight.

Error number two corrected.

Next, you still have this brain block about why the inspectors were let back in. It wasn’t magic. It didn’t just “happen” as “situations change.”

I don’t know how you even can type this. If you are trying to be a troll to get a rise out of me, please let me know.

THE INSPECTORS WERE LET BACK IN BECAUSE THE TROOPS WERE MASSING AND THE WAR DRUMS WERE BEING BEATEN.

Error number three corrected.

north korea has detonated a nuclear weapon. However, the two situations are vastly different. Remember how many times the north koreans have used WMD on their people and their neighbors?

Answer: Zero.

Further, the north koreans (as opposed to saddam) are extremely isolated and subject to pressure. There is a very real possibility that they can be isolated to the point (using non-military means) that they will have no choice but to comply.

I believe they recently have acquiesced to inspections again.

http://rawstory.com/news/afp/North_Korea_will_allow_UN_inspector_04152007.html

Error number four corrected.

Finally, your response to the eye opening link about WMD, was PATHETIC.

Go read it again. It was THREE THOUSAND NINE HUNDRED POUNDS OF ENRICHED URANIUM.

Read the links I send, or don’t respond. It makes you look like an absolute FOOL.

I purposefully do not link many sites because I don’t want your eyes to glaze over. I am very selective.

This link is fascinating!!!

It comes up with some very interesting theories about why Bush isn’t pushing these finds harder.

You’ll love it as it accuses the Bush Administration of not securing the weaponry and now they are falling into the hands of al qaeda (See recent aborted chlorine attacks against Jordan).

If you are asking me why I don’t think Bush is pushing this, I honestly do not know.

I can tell you it isn’t because things haven’t been found.

I’m angry that I have to do all this work.

If I was Bush, I’d have updates frequently.

It may be exactly what the link postulates (you need to read it).

The wonderful thing about the website I linked (if your brain can handle challenges to it’s preconceived notions) is that it gives a tally of the finds. It uses a variety of credible news sources.

In summary, it’s hard to dismiss. In order for it to be false, a whole lot of people with no obvious connections would have to be lying.

JeffR

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
He is ignoring the true democracies in Iraq and Afghanistan where people actually risked their lives to vote [/quote]

You fail to mention that people are risking their lives to shop for milk or go to school as well.

Democracy at gun-point is not democracy. When the occupation ends, I’ll withdraw my comment about Iran beating them democracy-wise.

So do the occupied territories.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
It comes up with some very interesting theories about why Bush isn’t pushing these finds harder.
[/quote]

LOL. I’m sure it does… so nutballs like you can find a way to keep on believing in Santa Clause.

[quote]If you are asking me why I don’t think Bush is pushing this, I honestly do not know.

I can tell you it isn’t because things haven’t been found.[/quote]

Yeah. You can’t imagine any good reasons that Bush wouldn’t push this stuff, right?

Maybe, and this is just a maybe, but maybe you should stop talking so much and think about it. He isn’t pushing it because it doesn’t match the claims made before the war.

Use your fucking brain for once and try to figure out why. Pookie has tossed you some clues that you have completely ignored (as you do everything that doesn’t fit your preconceived notions).

You are a retard.

Yeah, I bet the Bush administration has never thought of this angle. I repeat, you are a retard.

You are a good example of someone who needs a bit of deprogramming.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Oh, if that was the criteria then the U.S. didn’t have a democracy from 1776 until the 1920’s. [/quote]

You bet your sweet ass it wasn’t! What kind of democracy is that where slavery is allowed?

[quote]JeffR wrote:
First, we absolutely thought we were going to be hit by WMD in 2003. We’ve determined that we were hit by them in 1991.[/quote]

You’ve determined, 16 years later, that you were hit by them. Those weren’t the most efficient WMDs, were they? I’m pretty sure Japan didn’t require 16 years to ascertain that Hiroshima and Nagasaki had been hit by WMDs.

I guess “mass destruction” is a flexible term. Funny how many things become extremely flexible when discussing them with you.

A) Not taking chances. B) Bluffing. C) More bluffing.

In your dreams, sure.

As opposed to actually being shot down?

To try and shoot them down, of course. Stop being intentionally dense.

My point is that if Saddam couldn’t even manage to shoot down one single plane in 10 years of shooting at them, while you were flying over his head, how much of a threat was he to you across 2 oceans?

Or even to allies and local interests? You keep repeating that Saddam was a clear and present threat and arguing that going in a the precise moment was really the last resort.

It’s all bullshit.

[quote]In summary, if someone is swinging at you, they are looking for a fight.

Error number two corrected. [/quote]

If it’s a child swinging at you, you restrain him and send him to his room. You don’t pull out a gun and shoot him in the head.

Intelligent use of force requires you to tailor it to meet the threat encountered. Like when the inspectors were let back in: threat of force was sufficient to reach the desired goal.

I notice I just introduced the topic of behaving intelligently in our discussion. My apologies if you’ve been so far unable to follow.

[quote]Next, you still have this brain block about why the inspectors were let back in. It wasn’t magic. It didn’t just “happen” as “situations change.”

I don’t know how you even can type this. If you are trying to be a troll to get a rise out of me, please let me know.

THE INSPECTORS WERE LET BACK IN BECAUSE THE TROOPS WERE MASSING AND THE WAR DRUMS WERE BEING BEATEN.

Error number three corrected.[/quote]

Well of course. That’s exactly what I’m trying to point out: A full scale invasion wasn’t required to reach the intended goal (ie, getting the inspectors back in).

You didn’t have to kill half a million civilians and spend half a trillion to reach it.

[quote]north korea has detonated a nuclear weapon. However, the two situations are vastly different. Remember how many times the north koreans have used WMD on their people and their neighbors?

Answer: Zero.[/quote]

Maybe the fact that NK doesn’t have weak neighbors that can’t retaliate should be factored in here.

Just another tidbit you’re ignoring in your fantasy view of the world.

If Bush decided to move against NK, you’d be here arguing that it’s impossible to isolate and pressure them enough to force them to comply.

You’re impressively transparent.

[quote]Finally, your response to the eye opening link about WMD, was PATHETIC.

Go read it again. It was THREE THOUSAND NINE HUNDRED POUNDS OF ENRICHED URANIUM.[/quote]

As I pointed out earlier, and as you could easily confirm for yourself by googling for 5 minutes, all enriched uranium is not equal.

Those 2 tons of uranium were low-enriched uranium, suitable for nuclear fuel, not nuclear weapons. At best, you might make dirty bombs from it.

Israel bombed their nuclear reactor in 1981. It’s expected that nuclear material will still be present.

The links you post operate the same way you do: Sift through the facts and filter out anything that contradicts the predetermined conclusion.

Actually, it’s because your particular form of denial, bordering on a mental illness, is relatively rare. Few sites are shameless enough to pretend that such gross distortions are anything close to the truth.

[quote]It comes up with some very interesting theories about why Bush isn’t pushing these finds harder.

You’ll love it as it accuses the Bush Administration of not securing the weaponry and now they are falling into the hands of al qaeda (See recent aborted chlorine attacks against Jordan).[/quote]

Pitiful.

[quote]If you are asking me why I don’t think Bush is pushing this, I honestly do not know.

I can tell you it isn’t because things haven’t been found.[/quote]

You keep finding old useless leftovers from the 80s. Old sarin shells, old nuclear material. Old crap he had for two decades before you went it. It didn’t bother you back then, when the stuff might have been useable, but you want us to believe that suddenly, in 2003, the situation is now an emergency?

Are you just pulling our leg to see how long you can draw this out before you admit you were kidding all along?

'Cause that’s what clowns do.

[quote]I’m angry that I have to do all this work.

If I was Bush, I’d have updates frequently.

It may be exactly what the link postulates (you need to read it).[/quote]

Not really. Just to see you agree with it so strongly tells me that it will be full of distortions, lies, omissions and pretty light on facts. I get enough of that from you without wasting more time getting the same from someone else.

You’re my no.1 source for my daily clown fix.

No, in order to be false it simply has to falsely present the information. Enriched uranium is not all the same; pretending that it is, either from ignorance or willful omission, invalidates the whole premise.

It also informs us of the intentions of the site owner. Someone who’s done that much work gathering all that information cannot have missed the facts about low-enriched uranium. That he willfully refrains from posting it with the rest of his information reveals all we really need to now about this individual and his “fans.”

He’s a bullshit artist; same as you. You’ll undoubtedly manage to convince the uninformed and lazy; but anyone who spends even a few minutes verifying your claims will find holes the size of Wyoming in all of them.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
And interestingly, Pakistan abuts Afghanistan, where the US waged a war. Strategically, if you are going to go in one country with all-out combat, it might make sense to work with an abutting country instead of flattening it. [/quote]

That’s not the point. The point I made was that, all the supposed motives for the invasion of Iraq not only apply to Pakistan, but the latter is far more implicated in 9/11 than Iraq.

Heads up; my post was in reply to JeffR who claimed that Saddam was somehow fostering the ideology that lead to 9/11.

Try to follow the flow of the discussion instead of bouncing all around the place. I addressed JeffR regarding a specific context to cram his argument.

Present me with yours and then we can discuss.

Sure. Was that the same source that insists on the sun might rising tomorrow?

With a could, possibilities are limitless.

Again, I brought the secularity to destroy a particular argument. Don’t make a strawman out of it.

The US is, and has been for a long time, an unequaled military power. What makes you think anyone doubts that?

Where did you see me mention oil as the primary cause for invasion? You excel in the art of strawman construction.

My “propaganda” is actually the prevailing belief. You know nothing about politics if you believe everything your president tells you.

You can’t see the ties of the administration to the PNAC, or are you just trying to blind yourself.

You are disillusional to believe Iraq was invaded in good faith. There is no such thing, no matter what FOX or the NYT tell you.

[quote]lixy wrote:
JeffR wrote:
Oh, if that was the criteria then the U.S. didn’t have a democracy from 1776 until the 1920’s.

You bet your sweet ass it wasn’t! What kind of democracy is that where slavery is allowed?

[/quote]

lixy,

There was a war where 650,000 men died. It was our Civil War. It was fought primarily to extinguish slavery.

1865, slavery ended.

Now that doesn’t mean that civil rights were where they could or should have been.

However, I haven’t ever heard anyone say we didn’t have a Democracy.

JeffR

[quote]pookie wrote:
JeffR wrote:
First, we absolutely thought we were going to be hit by WMD in 2003. We’ve determined that we were hit by them in 1991.

You’ve determined, 16 years later, that you were hit by them. Those weren’t the most efficient WMDs, were they? I’m pretty sure Japan didn’t require 16 years to ascertain that Hiroshima and Nagasaki had been hit by WMDs.

I guess “mass destruction” is a flexible term. Funny how many things become extremely flexible when discussing them with you.

Remember the troops wearing gas masks? How about the Iraqi commanders wearing them? How about Bush warning the commanders not to launch them or face war crimes trials?

A) Not taking chances. B) Bluffing. C) More bluffing.

Error number one corrected.

In your dreams, sure.

Next, they shot down zero planes. Why don’t you ask the guys flying if that’s any comfort.

As opposed to actually being shot down?

So in your world, what was the purpose of shooting at them? To make a political statement?

To try and shoot them down, of course. Stop being intentionally dense.

My point is that if Saddam couldn’t even manage to shoot down one single plane in 10 years of shooting at them, while you were flying over his head, how much of a threat was he to you across 2 oceans?

Or even to allies and local interests? You keep repeating that Saddam was a clear and present threat and arguing that going in a the precise moment was really the last resort.

It’s all bullshit.

In summary, if someone is swinging at you, they are looking for a fight.

Error number two corrected.

If it’s a child swinging at you, you restrain him and send him to his room. You don’t pull out a gun and shoot him in the head.

Intelligent use of force requires you to tailor it to meet the threat encountered. Like when the inspectors were let back in: threat of force was sufficient to reach the desired goal.

I notice I just introduced the topic of behaving intelligently in our discussion. My apologies if you’ve been so far unable to follow.

Next, you still have this brain block about why the inspectors were let back in. It wasn’t magic. It didn’t just “happen” as “situations change.”

I don’t know how you even can type this. If you are trying to be a troll to get a rise out of me, please let me know.

THE INSPECTORS WERE LET BACK IN BECAUSE THE TROOPS WERE MASSING AND THE WAR DRUMS WERE BEING BEATEN.

Error number three corrected.

Well of course. That’s exactly what I’m trying to point out: A full scale invasion wasn’t required to reach the intended goal (ie, getting the inspectors back in).

You didn’t have to kill half a million civilians and spend half a trillion to reach it.

north korea has detonated a nuclear weapon. However, the two situations are vastly different. Remember how many times the north koreans have used WMD on their people and their neighbors?

Answer: Zero.

Maybe the fact that NK doesn’t have weak neighbors that can’t retaliate should be factored in here.

Just another tidbit you’re ignoring in your fantasy view of the world.

Further, the north koreans (as opposed to saddam) are extremely isolated and subject to pressure. There is a very real possibility that they can be isolated to the point (using non-military means) that they will have no choice but to comply.

If Bush decided to move against NK, you’d be here arguing that it’s impossible to isolate and pressure them enough to force them to comply.

You’re impressively transparent.

Finally, your response to the eye opening link about WMD, was PATHETIC.

Go read it again. It was THREE THOUSAND NINE HUNDRED POUNDS OF ENRICHED URANIUM.

As I pointed out earlier, and as you could easily confirm for yourself by googling for 5 minutes, all enriched uranium is not equal.

Those 2 tons of uranium were low-enriched uranium, suitable for nuclear fuel, not nuclear weapons. At best, you might make dirty bombs from it.

Israel bombed their nuclear reactor in 1981. It’s expected that nuclear material will still be present.

Read the links I send, or don’t respond. It makes you look like an absolute FOOL.

The links you post operate the same way you do: Sift through the facts and filter out anything that contradicts the predetermined conclusion.

I purposefully do not link many sites because I don’t want your eyes to glaze over. I am very selective.

Actually, it’s because your particular form of denial, bordering on a mental illness, is relatively rare. Few sites are shameless enough to pretend that such gross distortions are anything close to the truth.

It comes up with some very interesting theories about why Bush isn’t pushing these finds harder.

You’ll love it as it accuses the Bush Administration of not securing the weaponry and now they are falling into the hands of al qaeda (See recent aborted chlorine attacks against Jordan).

Pitiful.

If you are asking me why I don’t think Bush is pushing this, I honestly do not know.

I can tell you it isn’t because things haven’t been found.

You keep finding old useless leftovers from the 80s. Old sarin shells, old nuclear material. Old crap he had for two decades before you went it. It didn’t bother you back then, when the stuff might have been useable, but you want us to believe that suddenly, in 2003, the situation is now an emergency?

Are you just pulling our leg to see how long you can draw this out before you admit you were kidding all along?

'Cause that’s what clowns do.

I’m angry that I have to do all this work.

If I was Bush, I’d have updates frequently.

It may be exactly what the link postulates (you need to read it).

Not really. Just to see you agree with it so strongly tells me that it will be full of distortions, lies, omissions and pretty light on facts. I get enough of that from you without wasting more time getting the same from someone else.

You’re my no.1 source for my daily clown fix.

The wonderful thing about the website I linked (if your brain can handle challenges to it’s preconceived notions) is that it gives a tally of the finds. It uses a variety of credible news sources.

In summary, it’s hard to dismiss. In order for it to be false, a whole lot of people with no obvious connections would have to be lying.

No, in order to be false it simply has to falsely present the information. Enriched uranium is not all the same; pretending that it is, either from ignorance or willful omission, invalidates the whole premise.

It also informs us of the intentions of the site owner. Someone who’s done that much work gathering all that information cannot have missed the facts about low-enriched uranium. That he willfully refrains from posting it with the rest of his information reveals all we really need to now about this individual and his “fans.”

He’s a bullshit artist; same as you. You’ll undoubtedly manage to convince the uninformed and lazy; but anyone who spends even a few minutes verifying your claims will find holes the size of Wyoming in all of them.

[/quote]

pookie,

Quick questions: Are dirty nuclear weapons WMD?

Second, question: How do you know the enriched uranium was from 1981?

Third question: How do you not understand that our awareness and determination to fight terrorism increased exponentially after 911?

Fourth question: If you’ve used WMD on other nations and your own people, are you more or less likely to use it again?

Fifth question: If your father or brother (or you, heaven forbid) was flying over SAM sites, would you still be as cavalier about them?

Sixth question: Are you not in the least troubled by 56 flights to Syria carrying chemical weaponerY/

Seventh question: Are you not slightly trouble by TONS of enriched uranium in the hands of saddam and his cronies?

Eighth question: Is international diplomacy always what it seems? Is it possible that Bush didn’t want to attack syria for fear of opening up another theatre before Iraq was finished?

Ninth question: Have you given any thought to anything I’ve posted?

Thanks,

JeffR

[quote]lixy wrote:

That’s not the point. The point I made was that, all the supposed motives for the invasion of Iraq not only apply to Pakistan, but the latter is far more implicated in 9/11 than Iraq. [/quote]

But that is exactly the point - we get to pick our targets based on what we think is the best option.

What international ceasrefire had Pakistan violated? Was the war in Afghanistan over? Plenty of strategic reasons to pick Iraq over Pakistan even assuming you are correct - and reasonable people disagree.

See that? When “reasonable people can disagree on strategic grounds”, your argument for “bad faith” based on not blowing up Pakistan dissolves.

The situation in Pakistan neither proves nor disproves the validity of the Iraq war.

Heads up - he certainly was. His risk profile was one of trafficker in WMDs - and Islamist elements certainly want to get their hands on those.

In a mob sting, do you ignore the people who sell the mafia the guns? Or are they really not part of the problem?

Well, I suspect you failed, since the stronger argument of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” makes more sense.

Saddam was “contained” and yet he was constantly in search of WMDs - especially nuclear - what exactly do you expect Saddam to do with his WMDS? Build an amusement park out of them?

Remember, Saddam was “contained” - how was he to use them himself?

Oh, and your “secularism” argument makes zero sense when considered against the ultimate fact of all: mutual and irrational hatred of Israel. Please don’t insult me that Saddam wouldn’t work with an Islamist group in an effort to harm Israel or its backers.

You have made clear the irrational hatred of Israel commands a common brotherhood across all types of barbarians.

[quote]Sure. Was that the same source that insists on the sun might rising tomorrow?

With a could, possibilities are limitless.[/quote]

Thank God you aren’t in the foreign policy business. Your inability to see and recognize risk plus your naive assumptions about your enemies would be a recipe for national suicide.

You miss the point - amount of power has nothing to do with the characterization. It has to do with willingness to use it to defend ourselves.

Well, let’s review the record:

You said we went in for strategic control of the richest region.

So what makes it the richest region? You didn’t mean oil?

Hmm - wouldn’t it make as much sense for me to say “you know nothing about politics if you disbelieve everything the president tells you” - which is factually true?

This notion that I somehow follow like a lemming behind Bush is comical - Vroom loves the tactic in lieu of substantive argument - but here is a tip: I don’t have to believe everything Bush says in order to disbelieve the radical, discredited fabrications of his most shrill detractors that listen only to the ideological radio voice in their head.

Make sense?

I reiterate - no amount of reason will change your mind. You are a closed mind, dull-witted by the drug of your radical politics. It is a sad fact.

We’ve been over this - Bush had numerous opportunities to plant WMDs and make his “lies” come true - but he never did. If he is nefarious mastermind, surely he would have done that to strengthen himself, which is his only principle?

I know, I know - reason again. It’s tough to drift from your script.

More conclusory nonsense - when you get pressed, you opt out of the argument and instead start parroting radical bullet points like they are undisputed gospel.

And wow - how extreme do you have to be to think both Fox and the NYT are too far to the Right?

I’ve got plenty of “good faith” evidence - as usual, you have conspiracies, conjecture, and radical hopes.

Shame.

“BAGHDAD - A battle raged Thursday in west Baghdad after residents rose up against al-Qaida and called for U.S. military help to end random gunfire that forced people to huddle indoors and threats that kept students from final exams, a member of the district council said…”

"U.S. forces backed by helicopter gunships clashed with suspected al-Qaida gunmen in western Baghdad’s primarily Sunni Muslim Amariyah neighborhood in an engagement that lasted several hours, said the district councilman, who would not allow use of his name for fear of al-Qaida retribution.

Casualty figures were not immediately available and there was not immediate word from the U.S. military on the engagement.

But the councilman said the al-Qaida leader in the Amariyah district, known as Haji Hameed, was killed and 45 other fighters were detained.

Members of al-Qaida, who consider the district part of their so-called Islamic State of Iraq, were preventing students from attending final exams, shooting randomly and forcing residents to stay in their homes, the councilman said…"

…The U.S. military and Iraqi army and police were running the center along with members of Anbar Salvation Council, a loose grouping of Sunni tribes that have banded together to fight al-Qaida…"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070531/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

[quote]JeffR wrote:
However, I haven’t ever heard anyone say we didn’t have a Democracy.[/quote]

There’s a first time for everything, heh?

Anyway, you can’t possibly argue that a country where half the people can’t vote, and blacks are relegated to a second-class status is anywhere near a democracy. You are just throwing whatever argument you have lying.

[quote]lixy wrote:

Anyway, you can’t possibly argue that a country where half the people can’t vote, and blacks are relegated to a second-class status is anywhere near a democracy. You are just throwing whatever argument you have lying.[/quote]

It most certainly was a democracy. Democracy is (largely) value-neutral and has never meant “universal suffrage”. Even in today’s “progressive” world - sarcasm - 17 year olds can’t vote. Oppression!

The ancient Greeks invented democracy and yet restricted suffrage. Your whine is not only factually wrong, it adds nothing to the debate.