New Iraqi Strategy

[quote]fightinirish26 wrote:

Good explanation of the strategy, thanks for that.

However, to me it seems a bit too late for this. This rebellion is stronger than its ever been, and I don’t still don’t see us doing much more than causing more problems.

This is not a situation where we can win. Escalation in a violent occupation hasn’t worked as far as I know…India with the British, America with the British, Ireland with the British, Algeria with the French, Vietnam with the French, Vietnam with America…[/quote]

Hey irish!!!

I think the gloves are going to come off. Personally, I can’t think of another way. You can tell that Bush is starting to drop the P.C. crap. He’s fingering the syrians and iranians directly. He’s pointing to the mahdi and other shiite milita groups.

He means to win this.

He spoke up like a man and admitted/took responsibility for the shortcomings so far.

He’s set dates and deadlines: circa November 2007.

I hope you are open to seeing and acknowledging the victories.

For instance, yesterday’s capturing of iranian nationals who are suspected of involvement with terrorism.

That’s a big deal.

JeffR

Well we can guess all we want, but really this is something we will be able to see. He expects signifigant results by november, where we turn it over the iraqi government completely. I hope it’s enough.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
hedo wrote:
The strategy is forward deployment out of the bases, commonly known as the green zone.

The troops will patrol and garrison, along with the Iraqi’s in the areas where the insurgents operate. It is designed to kill the enemy and hold the areas.

The switch in generals and combat commanders is to be combined with more effective tactics. Less restrictive rules of engagement which the troops have requested far more then more then additional troops. This will allow then to provoke, engage and kill the enemy and destroy his supply channels.

Lastly Bush made clear that Iran and Syria are fueling the enemy with training and supplies. If they follow thru they will stop this by hitting training camps and supply depots in those countries that are near the border. This will send a clear message that we are ready to engage them militarily. If they don’t blink then this will intensify.

Two carriers will be in place shortly. Look for one more to redeploy suddenly. That will be a good indicator as far as I’m concerned.
The sub that just dinged the Japanese frieghter was also a signal, in my opinion. The message was we have attack subs, in the Gulf, deploy yours against shipping and we’ll sink them. Nobody practices deception better then the submarine force.

If this strategy is followed thru and the military executes it properly it will greatly reduce the effectivness of the insurgency by denying them shelter and supplies. At that point the Iraqi’s can deal with it.

The only question is if the Democrats will allow it time to work. Since they opposed the plan, before it was unvieled that is doubtful. However the stakes are high, the alternative are limited and the Democrats offer no credible alternative other then withdrawing which will have dire consequences in the long term.

Look at Sen. Durbin’s response. “21K troops isn’t enough but it’s too many to put at risk”. In other words, the Democrats will oppose any strategy offered by the President, even if it is one their leadership publicy supported weeks before, until Bush agreed with it.
Did anyone expect anything different?

Good explanation of the strategy, thanks for that.

However, to me it seems a bit too late for this. This rebellion is stronger than its ever been, and I don’t still don’t see us doing much more than causing more problems.

This is not a situation where we can win. Escalation in a violent occupation hasn’t worked as far as I know…India with the British, America with the British, Ireland with the British, Algeria with the French, Vietnam with the French, Vietnam with America…[/quote]

Irish

Those situations you mentioned, with the exception of the US and Vietnam, involved countries that wanted to occupy the weaker nation. The US wants to get out of Iraq but wants them to be strong enough to hold up and defend themselves. In Vietnam we had the ability to prevail but chose not to do so. Isolate the North, destroy the infastructure and continue to fund the South and you would have had two seperate Vietnam’s to this day. Similar to the Korean situation one would have advanced leaps and bounds and the North would still be a piecework shop for China.

Can this strategy work? Probably. Bush ackwoledged the failures and shortcomings and took steps to fix them. A lot will have to do with taking these guys on, in their backyard, and killing them. That will involve provoking them to fight. This may include Iran and Syria. They need to ship the warfighters back in and take the gloves off. Sounds like they are doing that.

I don’t know what will work. I know leaving and surrending to an insurgency led by Iran and the Jihadists will lead to more risk in the ME and at home. Most alternatives I have heard seem unworkable or simply designed to score political points. That will last until another massive attack hits the US. My two cents.

[quote]JeffR wrote:

Hey irish!!!

I think the gloves are going to come off. Personally, I can’t think of another way. You can tell that Bush is starting to drop the P.C. crap. He’s fingering the syrians and iranians directly. He’s pointing to the mahdi and other shiite milita groups.

He means to win this.

He spoke up like a man and admitted/took responsibility for the shortcomings so far.

He’s set dates and deadlines: circa November 2007.

I hope you are open to seeing and acknowledging the victories.

For instance, yesterday’s capturing of iranian nationals who are suspected of involvement with terrorism.

That’s a big deal.

JeffR

[/quote]

We will see. As you can imagine I have no faith in him or his administration to do anything correctly…but I hope the military can handle what he never can.

I disagree with sending in more troops…but I will await the results.

I’m no big Bush fan, I wasn’t for this war to beging with and I doubt the troop increase is nearly enough to make a dent. But I hope I’m wrong, and I sincerely hope we can right the situation over there.

With that out of the way, for you to pretend – just because you don’t like the Bush administration – that Iran is not at all meddling in Iraq (arming, training, adivising insurgents) means you must’ve gone throught the past 3 years with your eyes and ears closed. I have neither the time nor the energy to dig up a shitload of links explaining that Iran is indeed doing so. But plenty has been written about it by very mainstream news sources. Do some research.

[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Why did you say “methinks not” in respects to Iran arming and training insurgents? How does stolen American made Iraqi security weapons negate Iran’s involvement? Two separate issues.

British Find No Evidence Of Arms Traffic From Iran
Britain, whose forces have had responsibility for security in southeastern Iraq since the war began, has found nothing to support the Americans’ contention that Iran is providing weapons and training in Iraq, several senior military officials said.

Because just like in the run-up to Iraq, they’re hyping the threat from Iran EVERY chance they get.

There is no reason WHATSOEVER to believe anything this administration has to say about ANYTHING. Everything said about the Iraq war was a LIE - there is not a single reason to believe anything they say about Iran. None.

If you think Iraq has gone bad - wait till we get a load of the Iran debacle. BTW, even if I thought for one second we needed to attack Iran to save the world, I sure as f**k wouldn’t want Gilligan calling the shots.

That’s the thing that should scare EVERYBODY shitless.[/quote]

Getting Kurds, Sunnis, and Shites to all get along is like asking the Israelis and Palestinians to go hold hands and play nice… It ain’t gonna happen. (Not unless you’re like Saddam and hold a gun to everyone’s head.)

We’re allowing our sons and daughters to die for nothing. Come back to reality folks.

jeffr not for nothing but do you realize how hard of a time we had properly armoring our troops with Republicans? care to explain to me why military-industrial complex bureaucrats are holding up the development of the Trophy weapons RPG defense systems for tanks?

before you go blaming democrats for every problem, look in the mirror and figure out what the republicans have done. if you want to call them obstructionists i can interpret that as reasonable, insomuch as they want to obstruct Bush from invading Iran, causing another clusterfuck while also starting World War III and bankrupting our country while he’s at it.

we’ve lost iraq. we had an opportunity in the beginning to do this right, but we fucked up. nothing we do will make things better there. this isn’t surrender monkey garbage, this is and has been the conclusions of generals and intelligence for the past 2-3 years. Bush is only continuing for his selfish notion of hubris - even if it is going to destroy the world.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

Yeah. And the alternate story is, the British haven’t found ANY evidence. And the US allowed 200,000 unregistered, unaccounted for, small arms into Iraq AND lost 400 ton of explosives.

WHY would Iran even NEED to arm the insurgents?

Have you not learned by now the U.S. version is ALWAYS WRONG or an outright LIE. That’s not just an opinion, it’s an unfortunate FACT.

[quote]Damici wrote:
I’m no big Bush fan, I wasn’t for this war to beging with and I doubt the troop increase is nearly enough to make a dent. But I hope I’m wrong, and I sincerely hope we can right the situation over there.

With that out of the way, for you to pretend – just because you don’t like the Bush administration – that Iran is not at all meddling in Iraq (arming, training, adivising insurgents) means you must’ve gone throught the past 3 years with your eyes and ears closed. I have neither the time nor the energy to dig up a shitload of links explaining that Iran is indeed doing so. But plenty has been written about it by very mainstream news sources. Do some research.[/quote]

The neocon’s intention was always to attack Iraq and Iran WELL before Bush came into office - that is also VERY WELL documented. Do some research.

You know what else was written about in “mainstream media”? IRAQ’s WMD.

But the point is they have ZERO credibility - NONE. They were completely WRONG about EVERY aspect about Iraq - but they know ALL about Iran.

AGAIN - NO CREDIBILITY.

[quote]fanonda wrote:
jeffr not for nothing but do you realize how hard of a time we had properly armoring our troops with Republicans? care to explain to me why military-industrial complex bureaucrats are holding up the development of the Trophy weapons RPG defense systems for tanks?

before you go blaming democrats for every problem, look in the mirror and figure out what the republicans have done. if you want to call them obstructionists i can interpret that as reasonable, insomuch as they want to obstruct Bush from invading Iran, causing another clusterfuck while also starting World War III and bankrupting our country while he’s at it.

we’ve lost iraq. we had an opportunity in the beginning to do this right, but we fucked up. nothing we do will make things better there. this isn’t surrender monkey garbage, this is and has been the conclusions of generals and intelligence for the past 2-3 years. Bush is only continuing for his selfish notion of hubris - even if it is going to destroy the world.[/quote]

An RPG isn’t effective against an M-1 tank. That may be the primary reason.

A lucky shot, with an RPG, may disable an M-1 but it’s a low percentage shot and will get the shooter killed nearly all of the time because it is a short range unguided weapon. Systems effective against an RPG are also usually heavy, may have some use on a stryker or hummer, if the weight can be brought way down. Good advance and cover tactics are much more effective.

The voting records of congressional Republicans vs. Democrats during defense buildups are one sided. If the US had of followed the counsel of the dems in the 70’s,80’s and early 90’s we would not have developed most of the stuff you are seeing on TV. The Democrats have never supported national Defense and do not appear to be doing so now. Listen to the rhetoric. Durbin called for an end to funding the war on Thursday. Pure politics with men in the field.

[quote]fanonda wrote:
jeffr not for nothing but do you realize how hard of a time we had properly armoring our troops with Republicans? care to explain to me why military-industrial complex bureaucrats are holding up the development of the Trophy weapons RPG defense systems for tanks?

before you go blaming democrats for every problem, look in the mirror and figure out what the republicans have done. if you want to call them obstructionists i can interpret that as reasonable, insomuch as they want to obstruct Bush from invading Iran, causing another clusterfuck while also starting World War III and bankrupting our country while he’s at it.

we’ve lost iraq. we had an opportunity in the beginning to do this right, but we fucked up. nothing we do will make things better there. this isn’t surrender monkey garbage, this is and has been the conclusions of generals and intelligence for the past 2-3 years. Bush is only continuing for his selfish notion of hubris - even if it is going to destroy the world.[/quote]

fanonda:

Thanks for your input. Unfortunately, you are too far into Bush psychosis syndrome (BPS) for us to have a give and take dialogue.

This sentence says it all: “Bush is only continuing for his selfish notion of hubris - even if it is going to destroy the world.”

Even though we cannot have a meaningful discussion, I am curious as to what country you reside in.

Thanks,

JeffR

[quote]hedo wrote:
The Democrats have never supported national Defense and do not appear to be doing so now. [/quote]

Go fuck yourself, asshole. You’ve never displayed any integrity and do not appear to be doing so now.

Look, everybody knows the insurgency is in it’s last throes (Dick Cheney) and major combat operations are over (George Bush). This troop increase is totally negligable. It’s not going to make a bit of a difference in the long run, when you have these same clowns running the show. It takes 12 weeks to train a US soldier, Bush has had 4 years to train an Iraqi army and hasn’t been able to pull it together. That’s a result of Bush’s political incompetence, not a lack of US firepower. Bush has brought his Katrina level of incompetence to Iraq, and we’ve been watching a slow motion trainwreck for the past four years. The latest evidence… Bush has installed an Iraqi government that can’t even pull off a hanging, without screwing it up.

Bush was a great campaigner but he’s a total fuckup as a president, and he’s clueless about what to do in Iraq now that he’s screwed the pooch. He’s trying to stall and postpone, so he can get the fuck out of office and hand off the mess to somebody else.

If the Democrats were just trying to be cynical opportunists about the war they would be laughing and celebrating now, because Bush’s insistance on the surge has just cost the Republicans even more losses at the polls in 2008.

[quote]hedo wrote:
Stop beating around the bush and blame Israel or the new world order. Then we won’t have to skip over so many posts.
[/quote]

Olmert Hugs Bush, Praises Iraq War
Nov 17, 2006
Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert raised eyebrows this week when he praised America’s war in Iraq as a “great operation” that brought stability to the Middle East.
http://www.forward.com/articles/olmert-hugs-bush-praises-iraq-war/

See, we should be celebrating the wonderful success of Iraq.

[i]"On September 15, 2001, at a meeting in Camp David, Wolfowitz advised President George W. Bush to skip Kabul and train American guns on Baghdad…

What’s not in dispute is that Wolfowitz is the principal author of the doctrine of preemption, which framed the war in Iraq and which, when it comes to it, will underpin US action against other rogue states…

"When President Bush says, “America will not permit the world’s most dangerous regimes to threaten us with the world’s most destructive weapons” – that’s Wolfowitz talking. "[/i]
Jerusalem Post on Paul Wolfowitz - 2002 Man of the Year
http://www.israelnewsagency.com/paulwolfowitzajcisrael8990402.html

Wolfowitz, Feith and Perle - ALL previously accused of passing classified information to Israel before ending up in the Bush admin…

Neo-Cons, Israel and the Bush Administration
Have the neo-conservatives–many of whom are senior officials in the Defense Department, National Security Council and Office of the Vice President–had dual agendas, while professing to work for the internal security of the United States against its terrorist enemies?

A review of the internal security backgrounds of some of the best known among them strongly suggests the answer…
http://www.counterpunch.org/green02282004.html

Gee, if only I could find an Israeli connection…

[quote]Brad61 wrote:
hedo wrote:
The Democrats have never supported national Defense and do not appear to be doing so now.

Go fuck yourself, asshole. You’ve never displayed any integrity and do not appear to be doing so now.

Look, everybody knows the insurgency is in it’s last throes (Dick Cheney) and major combat operations are over (George Bush). This troop increase is totally negligable. It’s not going to make a bit of a difference in the long run, when you have these same clowns running the show. It takes 12 weeks to train a US soldier, Bush has had 4 years to train an Iraqi army and hasn’t been able to pull it together. That’s a result of Bush’s political incompetence, not a lack of US firepower. Bush has brought his Katrina level of incompetence to Iraq, and we’ve been watching a slow motion trainwreck for the past four years. The latest evidence… Bush has installed an Iraqi government that can’t even pull off a hanging, without screwing it up.

Bush was a great campaigner but he’s a total fuckup as a president, and he’s clueless about what to do in Iraq now that he’s screwed the pooch. He’s trying to stall and postpone, so he can get the fuck out of office and hand off the mess to somebody else.

If the Democrats were just trying to be cynical opportunists about the war they would be laughing and celebrating now, because Bush’s insistance on the surge has just cost the Republicans even more losses at the polls in 2008. [/quote]

Does your mom know your using her computer to type cuss words. Shame on you child. Now sack up and try again.

It takes a lot longer to train a soldier then 12 weeks you pathetic sack of shit. Tell us about your trigger time. How long did basic and infantry training take again…you fucking idiot.

The Bush derangement syndrom you have has now leaked out of your brain and dried up you balls son. Try and get some T in your system…maybe it will clear your small mind.

The Democrats are celebrating, didn’t you see Madame Pelosi’s coronation ceremony. It was on all the networks.

I did 9 weeks of relief work during Katrina. The fed didn’t fuck things up son, only milk fed moonbats like you think that. But do tell us about your experiences on Katrina and what the fed did or didn’t do. Did your school volunteer to send some kids down to help out for a day or two?

Your panties are all wadded up because the Dems are blowing it. They will be swept out in 2008 worse then they were in 94. They actually have to be for something now and they are incapable of doing so…much like yourself. Your childish post is filled with false statements, hats and venom but no substance…much like yourself.

What an asshole.

[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
hedo wrote:
Stop beating around the bush and blame Israel or the new world order. Then we won’t have to skip over so many posts.

Olmert Hugs Bush, Praises Iraq War
Nov 17, 2006
Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert raised eyebrows this week when he praised America’s war in Iraq as a “great operation” that brought stability to the Middle East.
http://www.forward.com/articles/olmert-hugs-bush-praises-iraq-war/

See, we should be celebrating the wonderful success of Iraq.

[i]"On September 15, 2001, at a meeting in Camp David, Wolfowitz advised President George W. Bush to skip Kabul and train American guns on Baghdad…

What’s not in dispute is that Wolfowitz is the principal author of the doctrine of preemption, which framed the war in Iraq and which, when it comes to it, will underpin US action against other rogue states…

"When President Bush says, “America will not permit the world’s most dangerous regimes to threaten us with the world’s most destructive weapons” – that’s Wolfowitz talking. "[/i]
Jerusalem Post on Paul Wolfowitz - 2002 Man of the Year
http://www.israelnewsagency.com/paulwolfowitzajcisrael8990402.html

Wolfowitz, Feith and Perle - ALL previously accused of passing classified information to Israel before ending up in the Bush admin…

Neo-Cons, Israel and the Bush Administration
Have the neo-conservatives–many of whom are senior officials in the Defense Department, National Security Council and Office of the Vice President–had dual agendas, while professing to work for the internal security of the United States against its terrorist enemies?

A review of the internal security backgrounds of some of the best known among them strongly suggests the answer…
http://www.counterpunch.org/green02282004.html

Gee, if only I could find an Israeli connection…
[/quote]

Thank God it’s the Jews. I’m glad it’s not the Mason’s or Illuminati or the Lizard people or even the Trilateral commission. You really gotta watch out for them.

[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
Sloth wrote:

Yeah. And the alternate story is, the British haven’t found ANY evidence. And the US allowed 200,000 unregistered, unaccounted for, small arms into Iraq AND lost 400 ton of explosives.

WHY would Iran even NEED to arm the insurgents?

Have you not learned by now the U.S. version is ALWAYS WRONG or an outright LIE. That’s not just an opinion, it’s an unfortunate FACT.

You do realize how few British troops are in Iraq, right? They don’t exactly cover a sizeable chunk of occupied Iraq. And, your conspiracy charge was predictable. Maybe the jews are shipping those weapons in! I realize you share that whole hating Israel agenda with Iran, but your buddies have been caught red-handed. By the way, your story was was older than mine.

“The next 6 months in Iraq are the most crucial.” Repeat indefinitely.

That’s a heckuva strategy, Bushie. Stay the failure course.

If I was really cynical I would LOVE LOVE LOVE George Bush… because he is doing so much to damage the Republican party. It takes a special talent to lose two wars simultaneously.

I can’t celebrate though, because Bush is actually making the global terrorism problem even worse.

I hope the Democrats can successfully force a vote, to get everyone on the record: Do you support the president’s Iraq policy or not? The Republicans in Congress are so afraid of personal accountability, that they are threatening to filibuster the vote! Hilarious!!! Republicans don’t want to publicly admit whether they support Bush’s failed policies on the war or not… they don’t want it on the record for the next election in 2008.

That’s the Republican party today.

[quote]hedo wrote:
Thank God it’s the Jews. I’m glad it’s not the Mason’s or Illuminati or the Lizard people or even the Trilateral commission. You really gotta watch out for them.
[/quote]

Hope you like Democrats - wouldn’t want people to start calling you anti-semitic…

Division of congressional posts seems to favor Jewish issues
January 10, 2007
WASHINGTON, Jan. 9 (JTA) - The new Congress doesn’t just feature more Jews in powerful positions than the community has seen in more than a decade - it also features more friendly faces across the board, Jewish leaders say.

“A net positive” is how one pro-Israel activist described it.

No one denies that the Republican-led U.S. House of Representatives, in power from 1995 until 2006, was overwhelmingly pro-Israel. But with Democratic wins in both houses, the 110th Congress removes from power several maverick Republicans who wanted the United States to be more critical of Israel, and boosts to leadership lawmakers who are not just Israel-friendly but intimately acquainted with the U.S. Jewish community.

That’s partly because some of the top leaders are from the community…

Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), the new House speaker, has elevated a number of Jewish members to powerful committees. Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz (D-Fla.) joins Appropriations after just two years in the House, as does Rep. Adam Schiff (D-Calif.). They join Lowey and Rep. Steven Rothman (D-N.J.) on the committee.

Jews now number 30 in the House - a net increase of four from the last Congress…

There are a record 13 Jews in the Senate, including 11 who are Democrats or caucus with Democrats - 20 percent of the Democratic presence.

Jews in chairmanship positions include:

Not bad for only being about 2% of the entire US population. Obviously this is great news for our foreign policy.

[quote]Brad61 wrote:
hedo wrote:
The Democrats have never supported national Defense and do not appear to be doing so now.

Go fuck yourself, asshole. You’ve never displayed any integrity and do not appear to be doing so now.

Look, everybody knows the insurgency is in it’s last throes (Dick Cheney) and major combat operations are over (George Bush). This troop increase is totally negligable. It’s not going to make a bit of a difference in the long run, when you have these same clowns running the show. It takes 12 weeks to train a US soldier, Bush has had 4 years to train an Iraqi army and hasn’t been able to pull it together. That’s a result of Bush’s political incompetence, not a lack of US firepower. Bush has brought his Katrina level of incompetence to Iraq, and we’ve been watching a slow motion trainwreck for the past four years. The latest evidence… Bush has installed an Iraqi government that can’t even pull off a hanging, without screwing it up.

Bush was a great campaigner but he’s a total fuckup as a president, and he’s clueless about what to do in Iraq now that he’s screwed the pooch. He’s trying to stall and postpone, so he can get the fuck out of office and hand off the mess to somebody else.

If the Democrats were just trying to be cynical opportunists about the war they would be laughing and celebrating now, because Bush’s insistance on the surge has just cost the Republicans even more losses at the polls in 2008. [/quote]

bradley,

I think I can speak for everyone here in saying that this response was WAY over the top.

It’s going to be very hard to find anyone as level headed as Hedo. I’m not making news when I say he’s a top five poster.

You, on the other hand, are not.

Therefore, show some respect or take your bilious venom somewhere else.

No one is impressed.

JeffR

[quote]JeffR wrote:
storey420 wrote:
From the above link:

More U.S. troops will mean more wasted blood and more people killed," Ahmed said. “The violence will surge unless U.S. administration decides to curb militiamen who are part of the Iraqi government.”

Abdel-Karim Jassim, a 44-year-old Shiite trader, said he had hoped Bush would come up with something other than the troop increase.

“Sending more troops will not solve the problem,” he said, although he acknowledged that “Iraqis cannot handle security issue on their own because of the sectarian divisions and the strong militias and insurgents.”

Here’s to hoping we lose!!!

Signed,

The only weiner in Texas (storey)

[/quote]

You see Jeffy unlike you and other chickenhawks like you, I have been there, I have lost friends there and watched them die, fuck you for thinking for one second that I would want us to lose this thing.

What people like you don’t realize or don’t care about is that sometimes throwing more bodies on the pile doesn’t work.