Nevada Cattle Ranch

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:
The militias are a fucking joke. A bunch of grown men who are playing GI Joe to distract themselves from their shallow intellects and inconsequential existences. [/quote]

lol @ how much of a self righteous, indignant, judgmental elitist you are.

It must be so hard for you to walk among us simpletons every day. [/quote]

holy fucking poo , how big of a hypocrite are you :slight_smile: Even if he was and I am not saying he is . That would be like the sun calling the moon stellar :slight_smile:
[/quote]

It didn’t turn out so well the last time a bunch of Europeans thought U.S. militias were a joke.

42

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

It didn’t turn out so well the last time a bunch of Europeans thought U.S. militias were a joke.
[/quote]

Well, there is debate how effective they really were. But, by the time the Mass Militia refused to march to Canada, they were fairly well established and battle worn, so were, at the very least, a much better foe than they were the time the revolution started.

At least, that is my understanding. Could be wrong.

43

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]mbdix wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]mbdix wrote:

That is my understanding as well. I just don’t see the State of Nevada disputing this Fed’s claim to the land. So, I am assuming that the State and Fed’s worked out a deal on the land. So Bundy is pretty much saying “yeah, I’ll pay the state fees, but fuck you Feds I don’t recognize your claim to this land and I wont pay you” It is not his land and never was his land. He and his family have been using land that does not belong to them for decades for their gain?

If Nevada and Fed’s were in dispute over this land I would understand Bundy’s stand, but from my understanding of this, Bundy is just saying “Fuck you Feds”. Maybe I am slow, but I don’t see his fight and from what I understand of the situation I wouldn’t stand and fight with him.
[/quote]

So, as long as the Fed and State government are in agreement, he as a citizen shouldn’t stand up to a law he feels is unjust?

Would this rationale apply to things other than government land grabs?[/quote]

I will only give my opinion on a case by case scenario. I will not give a blanket opinion on all laws passed by elected state and government officials. Kinda like picking your battles.

This battle, I don’t see Bundy’s fight. Like I said, maybe I am missing it, I will accept being wrong if someone can point out what I am missing on this situation. (I actually would almost like to be shown why I should be outraged and side with Bundy)

As I see this, Bundy should pay the fees or get his cattle off that land.

[/quote]

Fair enough, however the timeline for the land is important IMO.

Who owned it first, and how did it end up federal property largely will influence (at least my) opinion here. [/quote]

Cool.

That’s what I am basing my opinion on. My understanding is that the Bundy’s have never owned this land, only used it for 140 years. If that is accurate I would say Bundy should just be thankful for the amount of time his family have gotten to use that land.

If this was Bundy’s property and the Feds were coming in, I would be saying “Fuck you Feds, get off his land”. But I don’t see that as being the case.

44

Again, take a minute to read this article. It seems that water rights, and the slow erosion of rural communities plays a large role in this issue.

45

It appears that the BLM has decided that they are on the wrong side of public opinion. They are pulling the operation.

46

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:
The militias are a fucking joke. A bunch of grown men who are playing GI Joe to distract themselves from their shallow intellects and inconsequential existences. [/quote]

lol @ how much of a self righteous, indignant, judgmental elitist you are.

It must be so hard for you to walk among us simpletons every day. [/quote]

holy fucking poo , how big of a hypocrite are you :slight_smile: Even if he was and I am not saying he is . That would be like the sun calling the moon stellar :slight_smile:
[/quote]

It didn’t turn out so well the last time a bunch of Europeans thought U.S. militias were a joke.
[/quote]

no one has shown that there is more to this situation other than basic tax evasion or fee evasion .

I am sure there are thousands that use our public lands and pay the fees , but these people are special :slight_smile:

47

It is easy to whip those in the so called right, into a frenzy . Or as we refer to them here as the CJS :slight_smile:

48

[quote]JEATON wrote:
It appears that the BLM has decided that they are on the wrong side of public opinion. They are pulling the operation.

[/quote]

The roundup began April 5, following lengthy court proceedings dating back to 1993, federal officials said.

So
 They have been fighting with the Feds for 20 years
 Obviously lost, got frustrated and said we’ll fight this way.

eh. Makes sense they would stop paying, they were in court. And they did take action, with 20 years legal fees, a whole lot of it. Seems this stand was a last resort.

49

This is reportedly a post from the ranchers daughter.

By SHIREE BUNDY COX: I have had people ask me to explain my dad’s stance on this BLM fight. Here it is in as simple of terms as I can explain it. There is so much to it, but here it s in a nut shell. My great grandpa bought the rights to the Bunkerville allotment back in 1887 around there. Then he sold them to my grandpa who then turned them over to my dad in 1972. These men bought and paid for their rights to the range and also built waters, fences and roads to assure the servival of their cattle, all with their own money, not with tax dollars. These rights to the land use is called preemptive rights. Some where down the line, to keep the cows from over grazing, came the bureau of land management. They were supposed to assist the ranchers in the management of their ranges while the ranchers paid a yearly allotment which was to be use to pay the BLM wages and to help with repaires and improvements of the ranches. My dad did pay his grazing fees for years to the BLM until they were no longer using his fees to help him and to improve. Instead they began using these money’s against the ranchers. They bought all the rest of the ranchers in the area out with they’re own grazing fees. When they offered to buy my dad out for a penence he said no thanks and then fired them because they weren’t doing their job. He quit paying the BLM but, tried giving his grazing fees to the county, which they turned down. So my dad just went on running his ranch and making his own improvements with his own equipment and his own money, not taxes. In essence the BLM was managing my dad out of business. Well when buying him out didn’t work, they used the indangered species card. You’ve already heard about the desert tortis. Well that didn’t work either, so then began the threats and the court orders, which my dad has proven to be unlawful for all these years. Now their desperate. It’s come down to buying the brand inspector off and threatening the County Sheriff. Everything their doing at this point is illegal and totally against the constitution of the United States of America. Now you may be saying," how sad, but what does this have to do with me?" Well, I’ll tell you. They will get rid of Cliven Bundy, the last man standing on the Bunkerville allotment and then they will close all the roads so no one can ever go on it again. Next, it’s Utah’s turn. Mark my words, Utah is next.
Then there’s the issue of the cattle that are at this moment being stolen. See even if dad hasn’t paid them, those cattle do belong to him. Regardless where they are they are my fathers property. His herd has been part of that range for over a hundred years, long before the BLM even exsisted. Now the Feds think they can just come in and remove them and sell them without a legal brand inspection or without my dad’s signature on it. They think they can take them over two boarders, which is illegal, ask any trucker. Then they plan to take them to the Richfeild Aucion and sell them. All with our tax money. They have paid off the contract cowboys and the auction owner as well as the Nevada brand inspector with our tax dollars. See how slick they are?
Well, this is it in a nut shell. Thanks"

50

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:
The militias are a fucking joke. A bunch of grown men who are playing GI Joe to distract themselves from their shallow intellects and inconsequential existences. [/quote]

lol @ how much of a self righteous, indignant, judgmental elitist you are.

It must be so hard for you to walk among us simpletons every day. [/quote]

holy fucking poo , how big of a hypocrite are you :slight_smile: Even if he was and I am not saying he is . That would be like the sun calling the moon stellar :slight_smile:
[/quote]

It didn’t turn out so well the last time a bunch of Europeans thought U.S. militias were a joke.
[/quote]

You believe that I’m a European? Does my writing give you that impression? Militias made sense when America didn’t maintain a standing army. It now maintains an extremely professional and capable standing army. Heavily armed paramilitary groups guided by ideological fundamentalism using force to undermine federal law enforcement, as the militia leader in the video is advocating, is alarming.

51

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:
The militias are a fucking joke. A bunch of grown men who are playing GI Joe to distract themselves from their shallow intellects and inconsequential existences. [/quote]

lol @ how much of a self righteous, indignant, judgmental elitist you are.

It must be so hard for you to walk among us simpletons every day. [/quote]

Watch the posted video and tell me the militia leader advocating the use of force against federal law enforcement is a rational individual. Paramilitary organizations are no longer relevant in the present security environment. How am I an elitist? Because I’m a strong proponent of higher education in the face of te anti intellectual sentiment present among some here? I’m decidedly middle class and attended a state school during my undergraduate career.

52

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
This is reportedly a post from the ranchers daughter.

By SHIREE BUNDY COX: I have had people ask me to explain my dad’s stance on this BLM fight. Here it is in as simple of terms as I can explain it. There is so much to it, but here it s in a nut shell. My great grandpa bought the rights to the Bunkerville allotment back in 1887 around there. Then he sold them to my grandpa who then turned them over to my dad in 1972. These men bought and paid for their rights to the range and also built waters, fences and roads to assure the servival of their cattle, all with their own money, not with tax dollars. These rights to the land use is called preemptive rights. Some where down the line, to keep the cows from over grazing, came the bureau of land management. They were supposed to assist the ranchers in the management of their ranges while the ranchers paid a yearly allotment which was to be use to pay the BLM wages and to help with repaires and improvements of the ranches. My dad did pay his grazing fees for years to the BLM until they were no longer using his fees to help him and to improve. Instead they began using these money’s against the ranchers. They bought all the rest of the ranchers in the area out with they’re own grazing fees. When they offered to buy my dad out for a penence he said no thanks and then fired them because they weren’t doing their job. He quit paying the BLM but, tried giving his grazing fees to the county, which they turned down. So my dad just went on running his ranch and making his own improvements with his own equipment and his own money, not taxes. In essence the BLM was managing my dad out of business. Well when buying him out didn’t work, they used the indangered species card. You’ve already heard about the desert tortis. Well that didn’t work either, so then began the threats and the court orders, which my dad has proven to be unlawful for all these years. Now their desperate. It’s come down to buying the brand inspector off and threatening the County Sheriff. Everything their doing at this point is illegal and totally against the constitution of the United States of America. Now you may be saying," how sad, but what does this have to do with me?" Well, I’ll tell you. They will get rid of Cliven Bundy, the last man standing on the Bunkerville allotment and then they will close all the roads so no one can ever go on it again. Next, it’s Utah’s turn. Mark my words, Utah is next.
Then there’s the issue of the cattle that are at this moment being stolen. See even if dad hasn’t paid them, those cattle do belong to him. Regardless where they are they are my fathers property. His herd has been part of that range for over a hundred years, long before the BLM even exsisted. Now the Feds think they can just come in and remove them and sell them without a legal brand inspection or without my dad’s signature on it. They think they can take them over two boarders, which is illegal, ask any trucker. Then they plan to take them to the Richfeild Aucion and sell them. All with our tax money. They have paid off the contract cowboys and the auction owner as well as the Nevada brand inspector with our tax dollars. See how slick they are?
Well, this is it in a nut shell. Thanks"[/quote]

I am afraid even if his allegations are true , he is fighting a losing battle .

IMO the amount of time that his family grazed their cattle there is not important . He does not own it , we do . We have employed these people to over see our investment . They have deemed this tortoise is of value

We have a lake in the desert called Horse Shoe that is dry because of some fly catcher (bird) I personally think that if they flooded the lake the bird would simply move . But I have not studied the subject so I resign my self to their supposed better judgement

53

I have heard of several cases where environmental issues have trumped private property rights

54

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]JEATON wrote:
If you are looking for a fight, look elsewhere. I simply do not believe you have enough information to support your opinions at this point.

Here is another good article. Bundy Ranch, the Federal Government, and the Nevada Water Tipping Point - American Thinker

A “critical mass” has never been a majority. It is more like a catalyst, just enough to set off an explosion. [/quote]

How am I looking for a fight?

I just am not sure about the whole “critical mass” thing.

james
[/quote]

No way that would happen. The American military and federal law enforcement apparatuses are far too capable and widely present. The protesters have no interest in being turned into hamburger meat. The American government has largely done an exemplary job of providing for its citizens. While people grumble here and there, there is no extant powder-keg of revolutionary grievances.

55

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
It didn’t turn out so well the last time a bunch of Europeans thought U.S. militias were a joke.
[/quote]

The militias sucked. Washington himself said so and disliked them because they talked too much and did diddly squat when fighting actually occurred.

Sure they bloodied the British quite a bit at Bunker and Breed’s Hill and at Lexington and Concord, but at that point the British didn’t take them all that seriously and the militias were at the height of their fervor. As soon as the fervor died down, a great deal many of them sorta became pussies and just
 left. When the war had hardly even begun.

Afterwards, most of the fighting was done by the Continental Army that Washington and others formed; an army that essentially was the same professional army that the colonists said were crappy and tyrannical.

56

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I have heard of several cases where environmental issues have trumped private property rights [/quote]

I think “trumped” is the key word pertaining to the turtle. Trumped up to be more precise.

Ater reading through this thread, I side weakly with the rancher. I could easily change my mind with a little more information or hearing a compelling argument the other way, but one thing I know for sure, that save the tortoise angle is pure bull shit. Clearly an angle the BLM took to try to get what they want.

The letter from the daughter and the dirty-pool-ness of the Save the Tortoise BS are the two things that have me on the side of the rancher.

57

Here is another point of view.

I have been following the news on the proposed roundup of Cliven Bundy?s cattle that are grazing illegally on federal lands in Gold Butte managed on behalf of the public by the Bureau of Land Management and National Park Service.

I am familiar with the situation, as I served as superintendent of the Lake Mead National Recreation Area for the National Park Service from 1987 to 2000. In 1993, we reduced the number of cows that could be grazed on the Bunkerville allotment to 150 because of the emergency listing of the desert tortoise as an endangered species.

Because Bundy refused to remove his cattle to meet the 150 level and ignored repeated requests to do so, his permit was canceled in 1994 and the allotment was closed to grazing.

As the news coverage has reported, Bundy continues to graze his cattle and has refused to pay the BLM a grazing fee. The figure he owes the government exceeds $300,000. The estimate of cattle being grazed illegally since 1994 on the old Bunkerville allotment have ranged from 550 to more than 900.

It is unfathomable to me that 20 years after the Bunkerville allotment was canceled in 1994, we are still wrestling with getting his cattle off the range. And there were issues of overgrazing that allotment before 1994. It is my opinion that the BLM and the Park Service have done everything possible administratively to try to resolve the issue amicably. In addition, there are two federal court rulings upholding the agencies? position, and the most recent ruling demanded Bundy not physically interfere with any seizure or impoundment operation.

Read more

58

Mark Levin - The BLM asserts their power through the expressed desire to protect the endangered desert tortoise, a tortoise so ?endangered? that their population can no longer be contained by the refuge constructed for them so the government is closing it and euthanizing over a thousand tortoises. The tortoises, the excuse that BLM has given for violating claims to easements and running all but one lone rancher out of southern Nevada, is doing fine.

In fact, the tortoise has lived in harmony with cattle in the Gold Butte, Clark County Nevada for over a hundred years, or as long as Cliven Bundy?s family has lived on the land as ranchers. In fact, the real threat to it is urbanization, not cattle.

A tortoise isn?t the reason why BLM is harassing a 67 year-old rancher. They want his land. The tortoise wasn?t of concern when Harry Reid worked BLM to literally change the boundaries of the tortoise?s habitat to accommodate the development of his top donor, Harvey Whittemore. Whittemore was convicted of illegal campaign contributions to Senator Reid. Reid?s former senior adviser is now the head of BLM. Reid is accused of using the new BLM chief as a puppet to control Nevada land (already over 84% of which is owned by the federal government) and pay back special interests. BLM has proven that they?ve a situational concern for the desert tortoise as they?ve had no problem waiving their rules concerning wind or solar power development. Clearly these developments have vastly affected a tortoise habitat more than a century-old, quasi-homesteading grazing area. If only Clive Bundy were a big Reid donor.

BLM has also tried to argue that the rules have changed, long after Bundy claims he secured rights and paid his dues to Clark County, Nevada. BLM says they supersede whatever agreement Bundy had prior; they demanded that he reduce his living, his thousand-some-odd head of cattle down to a tiny herd of 150. It?s easy for the government to grant itself powers of overreach, but it doesn?t make it right. Many bad things are done in the name of unjust laws. Just look at Obamacare. This heavy-handed tactic has run the other ranchers from the area and now Bundy is the last one. He?s the last one because he stood up to the federal government.

*UPDATE: Those who say Bundy is a ?deadbeat? are making inaccurate claims. Bundy has in fact paid fees to Clark County, Nevada in an arrangement pre-dating the BLM. The BLM arrived much later, changed the details of the setup without consulting with Bundy ? or any other rancher ? and then began systematically driving out cattle and ranchers. Bundy refused to pay BLM, especially after they demanded he reduce his heard?s head count down to a level that would not sustain his ranch. Bundy OWNS the water and forage rights to this land. He paid for these rights. He built fences, established water ways, and constructed roads with his own money, with the approval of Nevada and BLM. When BLM started using his fees to run him off the land and harassing him, he ceased paying. So should BLM reimburse him for managing the land and for the confiscation of his water and forage rights?

Cliven Bundy?s problem isn?t that he didn?t pay ? he did ? or that his cattle bother tortoises ? they don?t ? it?s that he?s not a Reid donor.

59
60

[quote]Bismark wrote:

Paramilitary organizations are no longer relevant in the present security environment. How am I an elitist? [/quote]

They seemed to do well against US military in Iraq. Remember what Kissinger said: if the guerrilla doesn’t lose, it wins. If the army doesn’t win, it loses.