My Story and Labs

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

(Oh, and I did see the high cortisols with normal ACTH. The OP does not have Cushing’s disease or a macroadenoma. He had mono. A random cortisol is not a sufficient test for most issues. Perhaps this one thing should be rechecked.)[/quote]

I was curious about this too. The labwork indicated am cortisol was sky high (27 on a 19 max range I believe). Why would this alone be indicative of adrenal fatigue? I don’t understand. Wouldn’t adrenal fatigue, at the minimum, manifest itself by low am cortisol? Unless there was a 4 sample saliva test showing a flatlined cortisol response throughout the day, I just don’t understand the diagnosis?[/quote]

Perhaps there is no such thing as “adrenal fatigue.”

I have diagnosed or rendered people adrenally insufficient, or hyperadrenal, but I have yet to see a coherent provable definition of “adrenal fatigue,” or even a description of it that would not be otherwise better explained.

Nothing in PureChance’s post, above, makes sense physiologically, or pathophysiologically. To explain further will only encourage further foolishness.

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

(Oh, and I did see the high cortisols with normal ACTH. The OP does not have Cushing’s disease or a macroadenoma. He had mono. A random cortisol is not a sufficient test for most issues. Perhaps this one thing should be rechecked.)[/quote]

I was curious about this too. The labwork indicated am cortisol was sky high (27 on a 19 max range I believe). Why would this alone be indicative of adrenal fatigue? I don’t understand. Wouldn’t adrenal fatigue, at the minimum, manifest itself by low am cortisol? Unless there was a 4 sample saliva test showing a flatlined cortisol response throughout the day, I just don’t understand the diagnosis?[/quote]

Perhaps there is no such thing as “adrenal fatigue.”

I have diagnosed or rendered people adrenally insufficient, or hyperadrenal, but I have yet to see a coherent provable definition of “adrenal fatigue,” or even a description of it that would not be otherwise better explained.

Nothing in PureChance’s post, above, makes sense physiologically, or pathophysiologically. To explain further will only encourage further foolishness.[/quote]

Dr. Wilson states in his book that he uses the term to describe someone who is exhibiting hypoadrenia (which I believe is synonymous with the term you used of “adrenally insufficient”). He prefers the “adrenal fatigue” moniker because it indicates the chief symptom of the condition.

I guess we could debate whether or not fatigue is the chief symptom or just one of many, but I think trying to distinguish “adrenal insufficiency” from “adrenal fatigue” from “hypoadrenia” is akin to potatoes and tomatoes, and not very relevant.

My confusion from the diagnosis is primarily due to the fact that adrenal output isn’t actually insufficient. In fact, going by just the bloodwork, it appears overactive. This will certainly stress the adrenals and can lead to trouble if not rectified, but I just don’t see how this situation is indicative of adrenal fatigue.

Agree that the high cortisol can be partially attributed to mono, but his earlier blood test (from May) was also highish. Two data points are not a pattern, but can’t be dismissed outright.

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
Perhaps there is no such thing as “adrenal fatigue.”
[/quote]

I agree. I just didn’t feel like typing out a long winded answer on why that description isn’t the most accurate.

that being said, having low or insufficient cortisol is a problem whatever you happen to name it. I had cortisol readings of 5 at 8am and never got above 12 in all of my 8am blood tests for tests over the years - call it adrenal fatigue, adrenal insufficiency, low cortisol, whatever.

when I treated just my hormone imbalance I didn’t see many improvements and in fact just caused new problems and symptoms to pop up, but once I address my low ferritin, low vitamin D3, low cortisol, high RT3, etc. then I started seeing a huge difference.

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

My confusion from the diagnosis is primarily due to the fact that adrenal output isn’t actually insufficient. In fact, going by just the bloodwork, it appears overactive.
[/quote]

Re-read these last two sentences.
It is not “insufficient.”
Why assume that the cortisol levels should always be the same as “normal lab values?” They rise in response to a stimulus. They fall when the stimulus is removed; that is how normal is defined.
Next:

No, this is not “certainly” the case.
There is no normal situation in which increased adrenal output of cortisol leads to “exhaustion” or involution of the adrenals.
Adrenal insufficiency may have causes–tuberculosis, cancer, meningococcemia, autoimmune disease, “unknown causes”–but not increased adrenal “stress.” There is no definition of “adrenal fatigue” that fits the reality of normal adrenal function.

Yes, and I indicated that it was the one unguided lab test that was not explained. Mono can incubate for weeks, and the diagnostic lab tests may lag for months.

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
There is no normal situation in which increased adrenal output of cortisol leads to “exhaustion” or involution of the adrenals.
Adrenal insufficiency may have causes–tuberculosis, cancer, meningococcemia, autoimmune disease, “unknown causes”–but not increased adrenal “stress.” There is no definition of “adrenal fatigue” that fits the reality of normal adrenal function.

[/quote]

This is in direct contrast to everything I’ve ever read by Dr. Wilson.

Do you not think that constant increased cortisol output over a prolonged period of time can weaken the adrenals?

If not, I guess we’re just gonna have to agree to disagree.

One can do a low dose HC trial and see if some symptoms are resolved. If so, you have individualized data and then you can disregard concerns about "Why assume that the cortisol levels should always be the same as “normal lab values”

And I guess another definition of adrenal fatigue is when “They rise in response to a stimulus. They fall when the stimulus is removed; that is how normal is defined.” does not happen. These stimulus/response does not get address with lab work. And when people feel run over after a major stress event, the following fall in levels with weak adrenal function may create levels that are really to low for normal function.

[quote]KSman wrote:
One can do a low dose HC trial and see if some symptoms are resolved. If so, you have individualized data and then you can disregard concerns about "Why assume that the cortisol levels should always be the same as “normal lab values”

And I guess another definition of adrenal fatigue is when “They rise in response to a stimulus. They fall when the stimulus is removed; that is how normal is defined.” does not happen. These stimulus/response does not get address with lab work. And when people feel run over after a major stress event, the following fall in levels with weak adrenal function may create levels that are really to low for normal function.[/quote]

Part of the problem with a fabricated “diagnosis,” like “adrenal fatigue,” which has no coherent definition, is that various phenomena are then offered as “proof.” You say it exists, mysteriously, and is something different than adrenal insufficiency.

Points:
–if someone’s cortisol level is high, how does giving them HC prove anything? (If you are talking about diagnostic testing for Cushing’s syndrome, the classic test is the dexamethasone suppression test. Oral hydrocortisone will be detected, if at all, along with native cortisone in a blood test; dexamethasone will not.)
–if someone’s cortisol level is normal, giving them HC may make them feel better, regardless of the adrenal state: a little more HC makes for an artificial sense of well being for all sorts of conditions in which the adrenals remain perfectly healthy.
–What I say regarding the normal physiologic response to physical stress is absolutely true, and to a degree, it is tautologic. A physical stressor is defined as one which raises the physiologic production of cortisol in normal subjects. A normal pitutitary-adrenal system returns to normal after the stress is removed.

Now, then, my friend KSman, let’s take an example from life. Suppose someone gets diverticulitis, and it perforates and causes peritonitis. Peritonitis is one of the worst acute inflammatory stressors; it can cause organ failure, coma, and–in people who are otherwise normal–ACTH and cortisol rise. And when it is resolved, cortisol homeostasis returns to normal. There is no “adrenal fatigue;” if there were such a thing, we would have to test every patient with pneumonia, infection, surgery, burns, etc., for…what? temporary insufficiency?

One might cavil that some patients become adrenal insufficient during such acute events, but that is not the “normal response.” Acute stress may reveal a (rare) underlying autoimmune hypoadrenalism, or hypopituitarism. (Proof: autopsy of patients with acute and chronic stress show adrenal hyperplasia, not involution.)

Last, human adrenal physiology has been under investigation for the better part of 60 years, and I cannot find a single peer-reviewed article or review in a literature search back to 1976 for anything called “adrenal fatigue.” Having said that, I create hundreds of patients each year who should have “adrenal fatigue” after medication or stress. And they do not have this entity–either they become Addisonian or they recover. If you want to prove the existence to me of this undefinable and insidious “disease” show me the article, the animal or human physiology, the biopsies of the adrenal glands.

Otherwise its handwaving, and “adrenal fatigue” is quackery to which its victims eagerly subscribe.

“if someone’s cortisol level is normal, giving them HC may make them feel better…”

You do remind readers that individual optimal levels vary, so normal is not very useful. A trial dose is a useful tool for diagnosis, not the only one. One obviously will have symptoms and other information that creates a contingent diagnosis and the results of a trial dose can provide more data.

The main point made in Wilson’s book is that there is no diagnostic code for adrenal fatigue and that one will have a hard time finding doctors who will be of any use. You seem to be close minded to the possibility that the adrenals can be in any state between normal and failure [Addison’s]. You will point to this and say that you are right and Wilson will point at you and say that you are the problem. There is no obvious solution to this.

One might cavil that some patients become adrenal insufficient during such acute events, but that is not the “normal response.” Exactly one of the points that Wilson makes.

[Peritonitis, unfortunately, is something that I do understand.]

I think that we are able to compensate for deviations in some hormone levels or other functions. But if there are multiple issues, perhaps all “lab normal”, then some may take on from functional to dysfunctional. Then some intervention may restore QOL to a nice degree, even though there are other issues remaining. I think that there are lot of situations that are messy and confusing. You will not find any clinical research on interventions where the situation is not clear cut because these will be avoided. That does not make the problem go away.