My Argument about Beginers

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
1

Just a quick one.

I met with a man who has been world “fitness” champion a few times who now runs his own personal training business.

Anyway we had an argument over weight training for beginners.

I said that when i start with one of my clients, out of shape untrained with weights, i still make them do weights straight away. Of course extremely light but at least to practice the movement and co-ordination of the basic exercises.

His argument was that they should do prep work for anywhere up to a month before starting with weight. Because they will just get too sore from weights.

I have had no problems starting with -30-40 year old women on the basic weights exercises, of course they have a bit of soreness but nothing crazy.

Opinions please…

2

Sounds like he has no idea how to manipulate his clients’ volume, intensity, and/or frequency.

3

i used to think the same thing about beginners doing “prep work”. Then again “prep work” according to my knowledge was bodyweight stuff like push ups, dips, free squats, and pull ups. No weight training, not even to learn basic technique (whether broomstick or empty bar). All to prevent pain.

HA! How stupid I was huh? People change, and everybody hurts the first time doing anything lol

4

Chubs.
Thats what his argument was, that you should do bodyweight stuff before hand. Which could result in even more soreness.

How would you guys put this argument in a physiological sense of explaining it to this guy?

If possible to do so…

It would be good to come back at him with something other than cos i said so…

Thanks.

5

Pain is pain. It needs to be understood that unless you are dealing with an 80 year old grandmother and are teaching “Sit and Be Fit”, for your body to go from a completely inactive state to one of activity, some discomfort will be involved. I used to work as a personal trainer and the only justification I can see for starting someone out with body weight only exercises is if that person hasn’t reached puberty yet and you are preparing them for eventual weight bearing exercises when they actually have enough testosterone to grow significantly from it. Maturity level would also be the issue at that point to avoid injury. If someone can’t already do a significant number of pushups, they will get sore from that as well which voids that as being a reason to avoid weights as a beginner.

6

I in no way consider myself an expert.

I have, through the years, helped introduce a few people to weight training.

My theory is that it is not the movement, but the intensity of the movement, that often discourages a newcomer.

This holds true for a regimine of bodyweight only excercise.

Most of you guys, I am sure, could knock out serveral sets of standard pushups with no effect at all. On the other hand, a comlete newbie will get just as sore from a few sets of pushups, as he would from doing a few sets of light benches, to learn proper form.

Getting a newcomer on the bench and in the rack is very important. It builds excitement and enthusiasm, which helps to anchor their commitment.

7

I think of it this way. I get a new client, who has paid quite a bit of money to see me. Am I going to show them push-ups? Are they getting what they wanted out of this? I know that theoretically, they could see great results with push-ups, but most clients don’t know this. So, they’re going to think, “uh, I just paid this guy a crapload of money so he could show me something my high school gym teacher taught me 20 years ago? this sucks”

8

[quote]nick wrote:
…
His argument was that they should do prep work for anywhere up to a month before starting with weight. Because they will just get too sore from weights.
Opinions please…[/quote]

I’ve worked with several beginners,
and in my experience they don’t get
very sore no matter how hard they
work. This could be because they
have very low failure points. On
the other hand, an experienced
lifter who’s had a one-month layoff
can get mighty sore doing one set
to three reps short of failure.

9

It depends on the clients sport training history, age, body fat level and if the client has any health conditions. But in general I would use basic weighted core movements coupled with strategically placed body weight training. The use of body weight training for a beginner should be used for pre-hap/re-hap, control drills, GPP, motor re-programming and muscular endurance. Body weight training can also be used in a structural training program where the trainee?s goal is to strengthen the tendons and other connective tissue.
Keep a open mined.

10

Thanks for the replies.

Scott, i totally agree with the excitement factor, i always sense hesitance when someone starts weights but once they realise it aint as difficult as it looks they really get excited by weight training.

Boss, fully agree with your statement there. I spose when someone is close minded in the other direction, you naturally defend the other side.

But overall i think its important to get people doing what gives them the most benefit as quick as possible. (not to say bodyweight isn’t benificial)

Anymore feedback/opinions is more than welcome.

11

[quote]nick wrote:
Opinions please…[/quote]

I should preface this by saying that I don’t train people professionally (well, not primarily, although I usually get paid for it). It’s something I do on the side because I enjoy it. Many of my “clients” are friends and co-workers, or friend-of-a-friend type things.

Personally, I like to start people off doing progressively more intense bodyweight and GPP type workouts, and I have a couple of reasons for this.

First of all, my reasoning has nothing to do with soreness. Someone who has never worked out before is going to be sore the day after a reasonably intense workout, no matter what type of workout they do. Hell, some of the most sore experiences I’ve had were after intense bodyweight or GPP workouts.

Secondly, most people are in horrible shape. It’s almost scary to see what kind of shape some people are in. And most people, lulled into a false sense of difficulty by those stupid “it’s not your fault” and “new body in 5 effortless minutes a day” commercials, books, and advertisements, don’t realize how difficult it is, especially at first, to get in good shape.

By starting them off with bodyweight exercises and GPP work, I won’t feel as bad when they decide to quit after two weeks. (Specifically, I won’t feel bad that they just dumped $400 on a year’s gym membership that they’ll never use now).

Another nice thing about bodyweight exercises is that it lets me test a person against themself, and their own abilities, without getting wrapped up in pounds and reps and stuff. Beginner strength is rather erratic and variable, especially when someone is out of shape.

They may be able to give a decent first set, but extremely poor later sets (I saw someone who was able to just squeeze out 11 reps on his first set, but only 4 reps on his second, and 2 on his third, same weight for all). Beginners tend to really lack any kind of muscular endurance.

Lastly, it’s easier to improve their general fitness level to a more reasonable (safe) point before they start straining under heavy weights. From an immediate fitness improvement standpoint, 4-6 weeks of this kind of thing just seems to give the best benefit. They’ll increase their strength, their muscular endurance, their aerobic capacity, and their overall work capacity.

And once someone has gotten used to fairly intense workouts like that, they know what it’s like to be sore after a workout, they know what kind of effort and work ethic is going to be required to get in shape. By the time they actually start lifting weights, they’re really pumped, excited, and ready to go.

And due to their increased fitness, they’re able to “jump in” faster and make better gains with the weights.

I should probably note too, that after 3-4 weeks, if possible, I think it’s ideal to start working in some technique work for weight training. Mostly as a pre-workout practice and warm-up, doing lifts with little or no weight (bar only, etc). After the technical training, though, it’s over to bodyweight/GPP for the real workout, though.

Oh, yeah, and a jump rope is one of the best things you can do for an out of shape person. Anyone can learn to be proficient with it in a week or less, they’re as cheap as it gets, and they so effective.

12

CW lays out reasons not to start with weights immediately in “GPP ASAP.”

13

the reason why weight training is THE MOST PREFERABL training modality for beginners and youngsters alike is adjustability…

think about this, if you have someone doing pushups, and they weigh 200lbs, doesnt matter how strong or weak they are, they are still pushing against 200lbs… if you have someone bouncing around in some sort of aerobics and they weigh 200lbs, doesnt matter whether or not their knees or their thighs and calf muscles, tendons, and ligaments are up to the task of handling that kind of weight, they still weigh the same.

with weights, on the other hand, we can adjust the resistance to the person. take the 200lb aerobics guy or girl, they can leg press 20lbs to start if need be, no need to start with 200lbs. they can safely and slowly progress to squatting, and squatting with weights that assure that their lower extremities are up to the task of handling their weight while bouncing around a floor and sweating…

i always use this type of example when parents of kids who want to be on the weightlifting team ask if they are old enough. chances are the kid already plays soccer or something like that. when they make a cut on the soccer field, they handle their bodyweight in a dynamic fashion. i can start to teach them to snatch with a broomstick. think about it. my soon to be 3 year old son likes to imitate the weightlifters he sees everyday, so i made him a wooden “barbell” set, painted silver complete with painted wooden discs as “weights”. whole thing probably weighs less than 5lbs, he loves lifting it over his head and even squats with it if the guys on the team are doing squats that day. is this dangerous? well, if it is, then him sitting down then standing up from his little training potty that we have in the front room is also dangerous.

weights are adjustable, your bodyweight is not, at least not as quickly as it would need to be to count in this situation. this is why the more out of shape a person is, the MORE appropriate it is to start with weights, THEN move to bodyweight stuff later if you still want to do that sort of thing.

14

[quote]glenn pendlay wrote:
the reason why weight training is THE MOST PREFERABL training modality for beginners and youngsters alike is adjustability…[/quote]

I disagree with that statement.

Just because your bodyweight isn’t adjustable doesn’t mean that the resistance and intensity of bodyweight exercises can’t be changed.

For example, for someone who is very out of shape, they can start by doing pushups from their knees. Someone in moderate shape (able to do multiple pushups in good form), they can do standard pushups. For people who are in slightly better shape, you can raise their feet off the floor, have them put their feet on a swiss ball, have them do hindu pushups, or divebomber pushups, have them do jump or clap pushups, etc. For a truly advanced person, you can raise their feet and have them do an advanced pushup movement like those listed above, or even do hand-stand pushups. This is just examples from one exercise, but most movements can be adjusted like this for greater or lesser difficulty.

Don’t get trapped into thinking that difficulty or intensity is limited by bodyweight. A little creativity can greatly change that.

15

i know a lady who is obese and going into her 50’s. when asked to help her get in shape, i first had her try push ups pull ups etc. ( we left diet out)

She couldnt do 1 pushup. maybe 1.5 from the knees.
However, she could do light weight bench, military, rows, stiff leg deads, curls and a few other exercises.

and the second day soreness seemed to tell her " hey something is happening here, my body is responding"

16

A genuine beginner wouldn’t be able to hang from a pull-up bar let alone do one chinup. Nor would they be able to do dips. Sometimes I think these boards are crazy - it’s much easier to do a bench press with 50lbs than it is a push-up, much easier to do a tricep pushdown with 20lbs than a dip, much easier to do a lat pulldown than a chin, etc, leg press than a squat. Bodyweight exercises are for advanced trainers. My own opinion is that absolute beginners should start off with machine work and graduate to free weights as their fitness/strength levels improve.

17

[quote]kefu wrote:
A genuine beginner wouldn’t be able to hang from a pull-up bar let alone do one chinup. Nor would they be able to do dips. Sometimes I think these boards are crazy - it’s much easier to do a bench press with 50lbs than it is a push-up, much easier to do a tricep pushdown with 20lbs than a dip, much easier to do a lat pulldown than a chin, etc, leg press than a squat. Bodyweight exercises are for advanced trainers. My own opinion is that absolute beginners should start off with machine work and graduate to free weights as their fitness/strength levels improve.[/quote]

I understand the point you are trying to make, but you forgot one very important fact…most of us who many would consider advanced trainers started lifting like nearly everyone else…using our own bodyweight while doing pushups, situps, and anything else we could find. As a beginner, I was too young and broke to afford a real gym or access to machines and I developed just fine. I am not sure where you picked up that body weight exercises are for advanced trainers. that would mean many kids in high school are “advanced”.

18

What is this ?prep work? he refers to if not a personal interpretation (based on who knows what) of Seyle?s general adaptation syndrome (alarm, resistance, exhaustion response)?! This syndrome is a response from the body to any stressor, whether it be exercise or the flu. Regardless of what type of exercises you use with a beginner, their body will react in this manner, and it is the appropriate manipulation of their training program (recovery included, of course) that will minimize the soreness brought about by the original overload. I choose to employ a higher repetition range for a beginner, and most beginners are unable to properly perform the prescribed number of repetitions of many of these body weight exercises?so logically, I employ free weights (as much as I can, and machines in SOME cases). Just my 2 cents :wink:

19

‘I am not sure where you picked up that body weight exercises are for advanced trainers. that would mean many kids in high school are “advanced”.’

Kids who have never allowed themselves to get out of shape and have that natural fitness will be able to do bodyweight-type exercises. But if you’re a personal trainer, you’re more likely to be dealing with people who have let themselves go as they’ve become adults, the out-of-shape people referred to in the first post. These are people who aren’t in any competitive sports and who would find a couple of miles of a jog impossible. They’re not going to be able to do bodyweight exercises … full-stop. Also, if somebody can afford a personal trainer, they’ve probably already joined a gym. And it was in that context that I made my comments. If you have no access to a gym and no weight-training equipment, I think the focus should be primarily on cardio activity, jogging, biking, whatever. Any bodyweight type strength training should be done as an afterthought or when a certain basic fitness threshold is reached.

20

[quote]
Kids who have never allowed themselves to get out of shape and have that natural fitness will be able to do bodyweight-type exercises. But if you’re a personal trainer, you’re more likely to be dealing with people who have let themselves go as they’ve become adults, the out-of-shape people referred to in the first post. These are people who aren’t in any competitive sports and who would find a couple of miles of a jog impossible. They’re not going to be able to do bodyweight exercises … full-stop. Also, if somebody can afford a personal trainer, they’ve probably already joined a gym. And it was in that context that I made my comments. If you have no access to a gym and no weight-training equipment, I think the focus should be primarily on cardio activity, jogging, biking, whatever. Any bodyweight type strength training should be done as an afterthought or when a certain basic fitness threshold is reached.[/quote]

Again, I disagree with your last statement. Anyone who can’t join a gym should only focus on cardio? Do you actually participate in bodybuilding? Just so that nothing is misunderstood, this is what I wrote earlier about body weight training:
“the only justification I can see for starting someone out with body weight only exercises is if that person hasn’t reached puberty yet and you are preparing them for eventual weight bearing exercises when they actually have enough testosterone to grow significantly from it.”

In that context, I agree that some older individuals may not have the strength to do push ups and machines is how I would train anyone in that physical state if they owned a gym membership. Back to your last statement though, why do you assume that everyone is overweight to start with? If some guy looking to gain muscle is underweight (as has been seen on this site often), instead of even attempting any body weight exercises when a gym can’t be accessed, they should simply start running? I think you are severely underestimating many beginners. Again, when I was a kid and was looking to add muscle mass, I did all that I could do…which was often push ups or any other body weight exercise. If I were to listen to what you wrote, I would have lost even more weight and would probably be one of the many assuming they are “hardgainers” for no reason.