Spending some time in church doesn’t necessarily qualify you to give this woman advice on tithing. Even your merely suggesting to PWI folk what she should or shouldn’t do should be taken with a grain of salt because it appears you don’t have a grasp on this subject.
For instance, I have little to no experience in Liechtenstein’s internal politics so far be it from me to act the expert when it comes to a discussion about it.
Can you let on to the rest of us what the hard question is?
Sure it was. Who would argue otherwise?
The Bible was written by people and Christians believe those people received inspiration from God the Holy Spirit as to what to write.
What’s the problem? You deny the inspiration? If so, big deal. Folks been doin’ that for thousands of years. You’re no snowflake, friend.
Now I know you must’ve slept through a bunch of those church services you claimed you attended. The people who received inspiration to write the Scriptures are NOT the ones receiving any financial consideration here.[/quote]
Let me ask you Push, what would your advice be for the woman? The hard question was a typo of hard questions such as: What if God doesn’t exist? What if this entire story is fabricated? What do people stand to gain by telling someone it is their spiritual duty to give 10% of their income to God? What if I stand up for what I believe is wrong with the church? What if people kill each other in the name of their God and the have been lied to?
If you want my take on the bible here it is. It was written by good men with strong convictions. I think that the danger occurs in taking any religious text too literally. The Bible and many other religious and non-religious texts can teach us what it means to be good people, to raise good families and live in a good society. I do not think that these men or any others have ever in any fashion spoken with any higher power. I do not deny the existence of any higher power or higher powers. I think that great men existed and they have been deified to solidify their religious podiums (ie Jesus, Buddha etc.).
Let me ask you Push, what would your advice be for the woman?..
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As a general rule doing the opposite of what an internet atheist advocates would be the smart bet…if for no other reason than an internet atheist is probably clueless in helping a religious person answer doctrinal questions.
The response to the rest of your post will have to wait; too much multitasking problems here on my end.[/quote]
Now who’s floundering? Your only advice to her would be to do the opposite of what an “internet atheist” says?
I don’t have a problem with her paying a tithe in general.[/quote]
Why should this woman be concerned with whether you have a problem or not with her tithe?[/quote]
Huh? Didn’t you just ask me what I would recommend to her and why? I thought we were playing the hypothetical game.
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Yes, that’s true but you seem to be benevolently concerned that she do what’s “right”. Why?
So if one’s religion called for tithing outside of YOUR tithing parameters they should shuck their religious views and pay attention to the likes of you? Really?
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Because I care about society. Believe it or not it’s possible to be an atheist and care about your fellow man. But all you are doing is changing the discussion from the advice Pat Robertson gave to why I care.
Yes, and I’ll extend that to religious beliefs in general. If your religion dictates you tithe at the expense of feeding and sheltering your family, I take issue. If your religion requires you deny your sick child medicine, I also would take issue.
Well then you are the exception to the rule cuz atheists do less charitable giving. 'Member?[/quote]
You are clearly not in the mood to give much of a rebuttal any longer. For the record I am not against giving to a church. I am against them telling you that you must give money and that this giving has anything to do with your relationship with God. Mr. Robertson could have easily told her if she couldn’t give money to give time, but he can’t buy a half million dollar horse with time now can he.
[quote]BeefEater wrote:<<< I am against them telling you that you must give money and that this giving has anything to do with your relationship with God. >>>[/quote]Then you are unsurprisingly against the clear and universally accepted teaching of the bible. Forget about “Mr. Robertson” where I’m concerned. I couldn’t care less. Giving does not in any way make someone right with God, but anyone who IS right with God WILL give. Of their time, talent and treasure. Luke 21:1-4 (also Mark 12:41-44), [quote]1-And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury. 2-And He saw a poor widow putting in two small copper coins. 3-And He said, “Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all of them; 4-for they all out of their surplus put into the offering; but she out of her poverty put in all that she had to live on.”[/quote] If I were her pastor I would tell her that whatever God blesses her with in her obedience to Him in giving to Him first is His will for her in this season of her life. Yes I do practice what I preach.
If you are in a church where you have any reservations about where your money’s going? You’re in the wrong church. I see and participate with my own 2 hands in where my money goes. I have no such reservations. Our leadership is utterly transparent and committed to bringing glory to the name and reputation of the most high God and advancing the kingdom of His risen Christ in the earth. That’s the fruit of one’s salvation. Everything we think, do, say, have and are is given into His hands lest we bring dishonor on Him by taking His name and misrepresenting Him before a hostile and unbelieving world.
I think I would look to ignorant online atheists for biblical advice before 95% of the flaming heretics on television who, whatever it is they’re doing, it is not what I described above.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
…but anyone who IS right with God WILL give. Of their time, talent and treasure. Luke 21:1-4 (also Mark 12:41-44),
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This is exactly what I am talking about. You are essentially blackmailing someone into giving by having it reflect on their personal relationship with God in ANY way. I could just as easily call you an ignorant online Christian since you choose not to think objectively about why this sort of teaching would appear in the Bible. To be clear. Giving is good. Giving to your church CAN be good if, as in your case, you have transparency to see that the money is not being abused. Being made to feel like you have to choose to give when your back is against the wall to the detriment of your family is not good. Making someone feel like they are robbing God or that they are suddenly a bad Christian or bad person, after giving for years, is abhorrent. I suppose this is where we will have to agree to disagree, since there are many contradicting points of view on what you call a universally accepted teaching of the Bible.
BTW, everything you are and everything you have is God’s too. Your refusal to recognize that is entirely irrelevant to that fact. It is not however irrelevant to your state before Him.
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So what religion and what God is the correct one? What makes the word of Christian God more credible than that of the Hindus. Hinduism is older than Christianity, does that then make it more credible? How about the fact that the creation story from Genesis is nearly 100% copied from the Mesopotamian creation story with Marduk.[/quote]
Your questions, though pertinent, are entirely irrelevant to the act of somebody who already believes in practicing their chosen faith. That was the point of my original post (or one of them)–tithing serves a purpose, or more than one, in the faith. Just because it is not your faith does not mean that tithing itself is not still a functional part of many faiths–in many ways including animal/food sacrifices–not just christianity’s “membership fee”. In addition you could say that the ancient animal sacrifices were the more costly/valuable because it entailed literally sacrificing food that would have gone to your family’s table to feed them (or in a barter system trade for food) in order to act in faith towards God. Once again, the fact that you don’t believe is entirely irrelevant to the function of tithing within a belief system. The fact that there could be more than one right religion or ZERO right religions is also irrelevant. The purpose of tithing is pretty much exactly what I stated in my original post.
For the record, not a fan of Robertson either ok? Jury’s out for me on the video itself because although for a practicing Christian the central theme of tithing that push notes is correct even in hard times, I have a supreme distrust for Mr. Robertson’s words coming from him…it doesn’t smell right to me. that’s why I am just speaking about the concept of tithing in general…
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
…but anyone who IS right with God WILL give. Of their time, talent and treasure. Luke 21:1-4 (also Mark 12:41-44),
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This is exactly what I am talking about. You are essentially blackmailing someone into giving by having it reflect on their personal relationship with God in ANY way. I could just as easily call you an ignorant online Christian since you choose not to think objectively about why this sort of teaching would appear in the Bible. To be clear. Giving is good. Giving to your church CAN be good if, as in your case, you have transparency to see that the money is not being abused. Being made to feel like you have to choose to give when your back is against the wall to the detriment of your family is not good. Making someone feel like they are robbing God or that they are suddenly a bad Christian or bad person, after giving for years, is abhorrent. I suppose this is where we will have to agree to disagree, since there are many contradicting points of view on what you call a universally accepted teaching of the Bible.[/quote]Anyone who has to be blackmailed into giving has not yet tasted of the mercies of the living God and it is NEVER to the detriment of anyone except Satan when a truly born again believer gives in the spirit and truth of authentic worship. True Christians do however define “detrimental”, like most other things of consequence, very differently than you do.