More Islamofascism

[quote]Makavali wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
This is a bizarre statement coming from you. Are you saying that you believe the “moderates” are, in fact, the minority?

No it’s me stating that I can see a difference between nut-job terrorists and normal people.

You know how I always tell you to stop openly bashing Islam? That still stands. But if you want to bash the extremists, then by all means go for it. Just make sure you make it clear who you are talking about.[/quote]

You should read closer. His position is that Islam is inherently evil. There can therefore be no “normal people”. More disturbingly, he assumes Muslims are liars until proven otherwise. His interpretation of the Quran is, word-for-word, that of Al-Qaeda&co. He also hints at some grand conspiracy whereby Muslims of all races and colors are conspiring to take over the world.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Makavali wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
This is a bizarre statement coming from you. Are you saying that you believe the “moderates” are, in fact, the minority?

No it’s me stating that I can see a difference between nut-job terrorists and normal people.

You know how I always tell you to stop openly bashing Islam? That still stands. But if you want to bash the extremists, then by all means go for it. Just make sure you make it clear who you are talking about.

You should read closer. His position is that Islam is inherently evil. There can therefore be no “normal people”. More disturbingly, he assumes Muslims are liars until proven otherwise. His interpretation of the Quran is, word-for-word, that of Al-Qaeda&co. He also hints at some grand conspiracy whereby Muslims of all races and colors are conspiring to take over the world.[/quote]

Not my interpretation. I’ve read this in Jalalayn and Ibn Kathir. Yes, Islam is inherently evil. There is no question. Murder, theft, paedophilia, and paranoid-schizophrenia are the normative standards of behavior for Muslims according to the MUSLIM interpretation of Surah 33.21.


I’m a bit saddened that I have to do this again… but OMG!!1! LOOK AT THE SCARY MUSLIM!!


OH NOEZ!!1!1

[quote]lixy wrote:
He also hints at some grand conspiracy whereby Muslims of all races and colors are conspiring to take over the world.[/quote]

You mean they’re not? Aw man, I had crackers and dip all ready for the world takeover. Granted, they’ll be a bit stale now, but still.

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Perhaps you should stop carrying water for the religion that was responsible for millions of Hindu deaths.[/quote]

The blame lies on both sides.

And unlike you I don’t blindly defend my own “religion” but that’s because Hinduism accepts all religions.

Oh well.

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
lixy wrote:
Makavali wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
This is a bizarre statement coming from you. Are you saying that you believe the “moderates” are, in fact, the minority?

No it’s me stating that I can see a difference between nut-job terrorists and normal people.

You know how I always tell you to stop openly bashing Islam? That still stands. But if you want to bash the extremists, then by all means go for it. Just make sure you make it clear who you are talking about.

You should read closer. His position is that Islam is inherently evil. There can therefore be no “normal people”. More disturbingly, he assumes Muslims are liars until proven otherwise. His interpretation of the Quran is, word-for-word, that of Al-Qaeda&co. He also hints at some grand conspiracy whereby Muslims of all races and colors are conspiring to take over the world.

Not my interpretation. I’ve read this in Jalalayn and Ibn Kathir. Yes, Islam is inherently evil. There is no question. Murder, theft, paedophilia, and paranoid-schizophrenia are the normative standards of behavior for Muslims according to the MUSLIM interpretation of Surah 33.21. [/quote]

The man has a point…If they weren’t so fucking violent…

[quote]pat wrote:
The man has a point…If they weren’t so fucking violent…[/quote]

And who do you mean by “they”? People like the jackasses who flew into the World Trade Center, or people who make the effort to integrate into a foreign culture?

All I ask is that you make that distinction. They AREN’T the same, no matter how much PRCal obviously wishes they were.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
pat wrote:
The man has a point…If they weren’t so fucking violent…

And who do you mean by “they”? People like the jackasses who flew into the World Trade Center, or people who make the effort to integrate into a foreign culture?

All I ask is that you make that distinction. They AREN’T the same, no matter how much PRCal obviously wishes they were.[/quote]

Look, there have been more that 11,000 terrorist attacks carried out by muslim terrorists since 9/11/2001. I mean, what the hell are people supposed to think, that islam is full of peace love and harmony? It’s bullshit and you know it…

I don’t know if there is a majority or minority…I don’t know if it is every muslim or not. I know these facts…There are an awful lot of muslims who are terrorists and even more who condone or even support them. Whether or not they are most or all I don’t know…I know that to damn many have murdered and to many more want to follow in there footsteps.

This makes me not give a flying fuck whether or not there is a distinction between good muslims and bad muslims.

Given how widespread Islam is, I guess I’ll make that distinction. You don’t have any Muslim friends?

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Given how widespread Islam is, I guess I’ll make that distinction. You don’t have any Muslim friends?[/quote]

He buys his cigars from a Muslim fellow.

I kid you not.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Perhaps you should stop carrying water for the religion that was responsible for millions of Hindu deaths.

The blame lies on both sides.

And unlike you I don’t blindly defend my own “religion” but that’s because Hinduism accepts all religions.

Oh well.[/quote]

You need to read the history of India. The Muslims attacked for aprox. 400 years then ruled till the British took over. The Hindus did not advance against the Muslims. Their war was strickly a defensive one.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
pat wrote:
The man has a point…If they weren’t so fucking violent…

And who do you mean by “they”? People like the jackasses who flew into the World Trade Center, or people who make the effort to integrate into a foreign culture?

All I ask is that you make that distinction. They AREN’T the same, no matter how much PRCal obviously wishes they were.[/quote]

Their religions are the same. It’s a matter of how closely they adhere to their religion. Muslims who are ignorant of the Qur’an and Mohammed can be peaceful, but we have no idea how many there are like that, and any imam can come along and educate them.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Makavali wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Perhaps you should stop carrying water for the religion that was responsible for millions of Hindu deaths.

The blame lies on both sides.

And unlike you I don’t blindly defend my own “religion” but that’s because Hinduism accepts all religions.

Oh well.

You need to read the history of India. The Muslims attacked for aprox. 400 years then ruled till the British took over. The Hindus did not advance against the Muslims. Their war was strickly a defensive one.[/quote]

Yeah, I’m waiting for his explanation of how Arabs got to India by peaceful means and then things turned bad.

Read about General Kasim, Mahmud of Ghazni, Mahmud of Ghor, Mohammad of Khurarezm, the Khilji Dynasty, the Tuglak Dynasty, Timur, Babar, and Humuyum.

They ravaged and devistated India. It was a reign of terror which lasted for centuries.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Read about General Kasim, Mahmud of Ghazni, Mahmud of Ghor, Mohammad of Khurarezm, the Khilji Dynasty, the Tuglak Dynasty, Timur, Babar, and Humuyum.

They ravaged and devistated India. It was a reign of terror which lasted for centuries.[/quote]

The destruction of the Bamayan Buddhas by the Taliban pales in comparison with the destruction of Hindu religious sites by the Muslims when they ruled India. The number of Hindus they killed is estimated in the 10s of millions. There are a number of Hindu authors who’ve written about this. I’ll see if I can dig up some.

[quote] In sheer numbers, no group of Believers has suffered from Islam like the Hindus. It is amazing that few Indian-Americans, and few Indo-British, seem to know the history of their own ancestors and of what the Muslim conquest – or perhaps one should say the Early Conquest and then the Later Conquest – did to India, which Naipaul accurately described as a “wounded civilization.” K. S. Lal writes of the 60-70 million Hindu victims murdered by their Muslim masters. When those Muslim masters ceased the mass killings, it was not out of any sense of mercy, but only to extort the jizya from people who would now be treated in a manner akin to Jews and Christians: dhimmis who would be allowed to live, but would be subject to a series of economic, political, and social disabilities that guaranteed a permanent status of degradation, humiliation, and physical insecurity.

There are those who are morally indifferent to how the Mughal conquerors ruled, or to what happened to the Hindus (or the Sikhs). One thinks of the deplorable William Dalrymple (who is apparently not deplorable enough for the TLS to cease assigning him books to review on the subject) in his popular accounts of the luxury and love-intrigue at Mughal courts, or that other, more scholarly apologist for Islam, Francis Robinson. A number of factors have contributed to the indifference of Hindu intellectuals in India, and outside India, to the real nature of Islam. For the first, there is the common desire to ape the attitudes of so-called intellectuals in London and New York. It would not do, it does not do, to be too exercised about Islam. And of course, all things pertaining to Hindutva, to a sense of Indian nationalism connected to Hinduism, is mocked in the world, though it offers not the slightest threat or menace (unlike Islam) to anyone �?? anyone, that is, but the Muslims who continue to procreate and "gain market-share" as a percentage of the population in India, even as they harry or persecute or murder the Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan and Bangladesh and, whenever they can, in Kashmir and elsewhere in India. 

The astounding ignorance of Indian history that one finds in the Western world, and the supplanting of that history by the ooohing and aahing over Mughal emperors, should stick in everyone's craw. And some sympathetic attention to the claims of Hindus to Hindustan, and to the other non-Muslim populations in that most naturally tolerant of civilizations, should be given in Western universities and in the Western media. Even those newspapers in the Western world that are aimed at an Indian immigrant audience tend to pull their punches about Islam, or perhaps ignore the subject altogether (save in a few cases where the readership is definitely Hindu or Hindu and Sikh). This is done, one supposes, because the newspaper owners do not wish to alienate Muslim Indians in the West who might also read the paper, even if it means ignoring the major issue of our time and possibly of our century: the issue of the world-wide Jihad, from which Indian civilization suffered, and from which Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan, Bangladesh, India itself (including Indian Kashmir), and now in Great Britain, also suffer. Hindus and Sikhs in Britain, having come to the West with its freedoms and opportunities, and who once here have not given any occasion for alarm or offense, now find themselves, thousands of miles from India, subject yet again to the implacable hatred and menace of Islam.

Whenever an Indian (Hindu or Sikh) intellectual becomes known outside of India, he is quick to demonstrate his abhorrence of what is called "communalism" (which always means: those silly Hindus, and Sikhs, who may be too much attached to their own traditions and faiths, and of course are to be regarded with lack of sympathy should they dare to demonstrate any lack of sympathy themselves for Islam). One can see the phenomenon, for example, in the attitudes and rhetoric of Amartya Sen, who has written about the "democracy" within Islam. Sen�??s is an entirely ahistorical piece that makes one wish to insist that this particular shoemaker should stick to his last profession, though now he appears to have decided to make shoes for the whole wide world.

Readers should go to the historians of India -- K. S. Lal, Sir Jahundath Sarkar, those who contributed to the 19th-century volume edited by the Englishmen Dowson and Elliot -- as well as to the modern non-Indian scholars Koenraad Elst and Francois Gautier. They will be surprised what they will learn about the history of India. They might even begin with that book with the old-fashioned title "The Wonder That Was India," about pre-Islamic India, written by A. L. Basham. Others might choose to look at the grim list of Hindu temples, thousands of them, destroyed by Muslims, a list compiled by Sita Ram Goel (another author, who along with Ram Swarup is regarded by many Bright Young Indian Things as simply beyond the pale -- and they make this judgment without ever having bothered to read his works), and published in two volumes.

Among those of Indian descent well-known to the outside world, and who cannot be ignored as "Hindu fanatics" (a term thrown around a good deal, even though the most fanatical of Hindus would not come close, in the menace that his worldview would present to non-Hindus, to what the mildest and most "moderate" of Muslims presents to non-Muslims), the only one to tell the truth about Islam has been V. S. Naipaul.

There should be many more.
[/quote]

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/007743.php

Yes, thank you I am well aware of past atrocities. I can let it go however. Don’t take that as me sanctioning such acts of violence, but what’s done is done.

The only thing we can do now is move forward and try to co-exist. It’s possible too. But like I’ve always said, it’s the extremists on BOTH sides of this argument that have to go for that to be possible.

In contrast there were also many Muslim kings who wished to live in harmony with the Hindus for interests of the Islamic empire. Akbar and Ibrahim Adil Shah II of Bijapur Adil Shah dynasty are notable examples. Akbar’s court was home to intellectuals and saints both Hindu and Muslim, among them the great musician Tansen who converted to Islam, and he even went so far as to try and create a new religion (the din ilahi) to create a rapprochement of both creeds for creating a stable empire.

and: The arrival of Sufi movement conversing with other mystic traditions of Vedanta and Yoga led to the rise of the syncretic Bhakti movement. Kabir was a Sufi saint who embraced the Hindu God Rama as his chosen bhakti ideal. He wrote poetry and preached to the people, advocating a blend of philosophy and spiritual practices. Sufism as a whole is primarily concerned with direct personal experience, and as such may be compared to various esoteric forms of mysticism such as Bhakti form of Hinduism, Hesychasm, Zen Buddhism, Kabbalah, Gnosticism and Christian mysticism.

See there’s good with the bad.

I always denounce intolerant bigots, but I can accept those who accept others.

Sufism understands jihad the same way the “extremists” do. Al-Ghazali, regarded as the greatest Sufi thinker, said this about jihad for the spread of religion:

The guy you described is simply an apostate of Islam.

And I don’t count three Muslim sultans ruling justly out of a thousand years of persecution of Hindus to be evidence for co-existence.