More Abortion Talk

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
21

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:
It strikes me as odd that the pro-life movement is hellbent on banning abortion outright. Change like this overnight will simply drive abortion underground, throwing women into the hands of shady back alley “Doctors”.

Let us assume these principles for the purpose of this thread.

[quote]1. Humans like sex (crazy, I know).
2. You will not be able to stop non-procreational sex. Ever. To understand why, see 1.
3. Religious musings on sex are irrelevant to this discussion. Not everyone follows the same God, or even any God.
4. Consensual non-procreational sex helps with pair bonding.[/quote]

Now, here is some data, feel free to skip it, but don’t complain it was not provided.

Pregnancy rates for Contraception:

  • Abstinence (0%)
  • The implant (0.05%)
  • Vasectomy (0.15%)
  • IUD with Progestogen (0.2%)
  • Tubal Litigation (0.5%)
  • Depo Provera (0.3%)
  • The Pill (0.3% - 8%, largely dependent on education on use)
  • Condoms (2% - 15%, again dependent on education on proper use)
  • Symptoms based fertility awareness (25%)
  • The rhythm method (25%)
  • Pulling out (27%)
  • Spermicidal Gel (29%)
  • None (85%)

Now, we move into the realm of speculation, but again we abide by the principles stated above.

Is there any doubt that providing education on the use of contraception, and providing easy access to said contraceptives would lower abortion rates? This idea, which I can’t even claim as my own, has the benefit of:

a.) Leaving females with choice.
b.) Lowering abortion rates substantially*

*I think.

Promiscuity is not going to increase noticeably, we already live in a highly sexualized society. Contraception use on the other hand, would be encouraged and rise in use very noticably. Development of contraception for males would also play a large part in this, I have mentioned RISUG before and I will mention it again. Non-hormonal birth control for men, offering a double up and even further reducing pregnancy rates on contraception.

Now, after this wall of text, discuss.

Also, pic unrelated.[/quote]

Why do would you care if abortion rates are low if you agree with abortion? Wouldn’t it be better if they are high?[/quote]

Well, now that you mention it, I think it is time for abortion parties.

If we include sex (unprotected, obviously), drugs and alcohol would even create more cannon fodder for our next party.

I can only congratulate you on understanding the other side of the argument so well that you are able to make invaluable contributions.

[/quote]

That’s the spirit! This is one of the most non-complicated issues ever. It’s either killing a person or it’s not. If you believe it’s not, why suppress the use of it? If it is right, why not just go nuts with it? Why shouldn’t ever woman have an abortion? If it’s not wrong, it doesn’t matter.

22

[quote]optheta wrote:
Abortion should be a non-issue in politics seriously. The Right and the Left have a perpetuate Need to interfere with peoples life, tis awesome.[/quote]

You must be lost. I believe RMP is thataway =>

23

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:
It strikes me as odd that the pro-life movement is hellbent on banning abortion outright. Change like this overnight will simply drive abortion underground, throwing women into the hands of shady back alley “Doctors”.

Let us assume these principles for the purpose of this thread.

[quote]1. Humans like sex (crazy, I know).
2. You will not be able to stop non-procreational sex. Ever. To understand why, see 1.
3. Religious musings on sex are irrelevant to this discussion. Not everyone follows the same God, or even any God.
4. Consensual non-procreational sex helps with pair bonding.[/quote]

Now, here is some data, feel free to skip it, but don’t complain it was not provided.

Pregnancy rates for Contraception:

  • Abstinence (0%)
  • The implant (0.05%)
  • Vasectomy (0.15%)
  • IUD with Progestogen (0.2%)
  • Tubal Litigation (0.5%)
  • Depo Provera (0.3%)
  • The Pill (0.3% - 8%, largely dependent on education on use)
  • Condoms (2% - 15%, again dependent on education on proper use)
  • Symptoms based fertility awareness (25%)
  • The rhythm method (25%)
  • Pulling out (27%)
  • Spermicidal Gel (29%)
  • None (85%)

Now, we move into the realm of speculation, but again we abide by the principles stated above.

Is there any doubt that providing education on the use of contraception, and providing easy access to said contraceptives would lower abortion rates? This idea, which I can’t even claim as my own, has the benefit of:

a.) Leaving females with choice.
b.) Lowering abortion rates substantially*

*I think.

Promiscuity is not going to increase noticeably, we already live in a highly sexualized society. Contraception use on the other hand, would be encouraged and rise in use very noticably. Development of contraception for males would also play a large part in this, I have mentioned RISUG before and I will mention it again. Non-hormonal birth control for men, offering a double up and even further reducing pregnancy rates on contraception.

Now, after this wall of text, discuss.

Also, pic unrelated.[/quote]

Why do would you care if abortion rates are low if you agree with abortion? Wouldn’t it be better if they are high?[/quote]

Well, now that you mention it, I think it is time for abortion parties.

If we include sex (unprotected, obviously), drugs and alcohol would even create more cannon fodder for our next party.

I can only congratulate you on understanding the other side of the argument so well that you are able to make invaluable contributions.

[/quote]

That’s the spirit! This is one of the most non-complicated issues ever. It’s either killing a person or it’s not. If you believe it’s not, why suppress the use of it? If it is right, why not just go nuts with it? Why shouldn’t ever woman have an abortion? If it’s not wrong, it doesn’t matter. [/quote]

This question has been getting asked over and over again now, in this thread and the other one. And in countless threads before this one. I don’t believe I’ve even once see anyone attempt to answer it.

24

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

That’s the spirit! This is one of the most non-complicated issues ever. It’s either killing a person or it’s not. If you believe it’s not, why suppress the use of it? If it is right, why not just go nuts with it? Why shouldn’t ever woman have an abortion? If it’s not wrong, it doesn’t matter. [/quote]

This question has been getting asked over and over again now, in this thread and the other one. And in countless threads before this one. I don’t believe I’ve even once see anyone attempt to answer it.
[/quote]

The procedure is invasive and there are risks involved, as with any surgical procedure.

25

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

That’s the spirit! This is one of the most non-complicated issues ever. It’s either killing a person or it’s not. If you believe it’s not, why suppress the use of it? If it is right, why not just go nuts with it? Why shouldn’t ever woman have an abortion? If it’s not wrong, it doesn’t matter. [/quote]

This question has been getting asked over and over again now, in this thread and the other one. And in countless threads before this one. I don’t believe I’ve even once see anyone attempt to answer it.
[/quote]

The procedure is invasive and there are risks involved, as with any surgical procedure.

[/quote]

I imagine they falsely believed pro-choicers would actually feel a bit of guilt and regret over the high rate of human lives being snuffed out. I could have told them pro-choicers have no regret about the millions of lives lost. They’re (choicers) monsters. They’re the slavers and we (lifers) are the abolitionists of today.

26

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

That’s the spirit! This is one of the most non-complicated issues ever. It’s either killing a person or it’s not. If you believe it’s not, why suppress the use of it? If it is right, why not just go nuts with it? Why shouldn’t ever woman have an abortion? If it’s not wrong, it doesn’t matter. [/quote]

This question has been getting asked over and over again now, in this thread and the other one. And in countless threads before this one. I don’t believe I’ve even once see anyone attempt to answer it.
[/quote]

The procedure is invasive and there are risks involved, as with any surgical procedure.

[/quote]

I imagine they falsely believed pro-choicers would actually feel a bit of guilt and regret over the high rate of human lives being snuffed out. I could have told them pro-choicers have no regret about the millions of lives lost. They’re (choicers) monsters. They’re the slavers and we (lifers) are the abolitionists of today.[/quote]

Whatever gets you through the day sloth.

America, land of the free… if you’re a white conservative male between 25 and 55 and adhere to the christian faith. Otherwise, go to hell!

27

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:
It strikes me as odd that the pro-life movement is hellbent on banning abortion outright. Change like this overnight will simply drive abortion underground, throwing women into the hands of shady back alley “Doctors”.

Let us assume these principles for the purpose of this thread.

[quote]1. Humans like sex (crazy, I know).
2. You will not be able to stop non-procreational sex. Ever. To understand why, see 1.
3. Religious musings on sex are irrelevant to this discussion. Not everyone follows the same God, or even any God.
4. Consensual non-procreational sex helps with pair bonding.[/quote]

Now, here is some data, feel free to skip it, but don’t complain it was not provided.

Pregnancy rates for Contraception:

  • Abstinence (0%)
  • The implant (0.05%)
  • Vasectomy (0.15%)
  • IUD with Progestogen (0.2%)
  • Tubal Litigation (0.5%)
  • Depo Provera (0.3%)
  • The Pill (0.3% - 8%, largely dependent on education on use)
  • Condoms (2% - 15%, again dependent on education on proper use)
  • Symptoms based fertility awareness (25%)
  • The rhythm method (25%)
  • Pulling out (27%)
  • Spermicidal Gel (29%)
  • None (85%)

Now, we move into the realm of speculation, but again we abide by the principles stated above.

Is there any doubt that providing education on the use of contraception, and providing easy access to said contraceptives would lower abortion rates? This idea, which I can’t even claim as my own, has the benefit of:

a.) Leaving females with choice.
b.) Lowering abortion rates substantially*

*I think.

Promiscuity is not going to increase noticeably, we already live in a highly sexualized society. Contraception use on the other hand, would be encouraged and rise in use very noticably. Development of contraception for males would also play a large part in this, I have mentioned RISUG before and I will mention it again. Non-hormonal birth control for men, offering a double up and even further reducing pregnancy rates on contraception.

Now, after this wall of text, discuss.

Also, pic unrelated.[/quote]

Why do would you care if abortion rates are low if you agree with abortion? Wouldn’t it be better if they are high?[/quote]

Well, now that you mention it, I think it is time for abortion parties.

If we include sex (unprotected, obviously), drugs and alcohol would even create more cannon fodder for our next party.

I can only congratulate you on understanding the other side of the argument so well that you are able to make invaluable contributions.

[/quote]

That’s the spirit! This is one of the most non-complicated issues ever. It’s either killing a person or it’s not. If you believe it’s not, why suppress the use of it? If it is right, why not just go nuts with it? Why shouldn’t ever woman have an abortion? If it’s not wrong, it doesn’t matter. [/quote]

It would be great if we could control our opponent like that , your theory of either it being bad or good is flawed , it would be like if capital punishment is good or bad . I believe capital punishment is good for a unprovoked calculated murder , but is bad for spitting on the side walk

28

[quote]ephrem wrote:
America, land of the free… if you’re a white conservative male between 25 and 55 and adhere to the christian faith. Otherwise, go to hell!
[/quote]

You shouldn’t even use the word “Freedom” while being a pro-abortionist. I love that you pulled in a racial component. Since most of you guys wouldn’t outlaw abortion because those homicidal blacks carry such high abortion rates. You know, it keeps the ahem…‘crime’…down. My position, more blacks would be a higher percentage of the population. Yours, not so.

29

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
America, land of the free… if you’re a white conservative male between 25 and 55 and adhere to the christian faith. Otherwise, go to hell!
[/quote]

You shouldn’t even use the word “Freedom” while being a pro-abortionist. [/quote]

Freedom, freedom, freedom? You suck at trolling slothy, but i can imagine that, in your warped little world, denying women the choice whether to abort a pregnancy or not constitutes freedom.

Will you be keeping this up, or should i ignore you too?

30

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
America, land of the free… if you’re a white conservative male between 25 and 55 and adhere to the christian faith. Otherwise, go to hell!
[/quote]

You shouldn’t even use the word “Freedom” while being a pro-abortionist. [/quote]

Freedom, freedom, freedom? You suck at trolling slothy, but i can imagine that, in your warped little world, denying women the choice whether to abort a pregnancy or not constitutes freedom.

Will you be keeping this up, or should i ignore you too?[/quote]

You’re asking me? Feel free to ignore me for all I care. The truth hurts. You support the snuffing out of lives as a solution to poverty, casual sex, and crime. Where is the freedom you ground up with all that flesh in your quest for casual sex? Where is the freedom of those human lives, whose destruction you supported? Where? Rotting in some biological disposal? Burnt up in some crematory? Pro-abortions are anti-freedom. They will trade the inalienable rights (such as life) of human beings just to secure casual non-committal sex as a norm. “It’s invasive.” Cry me a friggen river. We stand for freedom, you don’t.

Your side will eventually find it’s rightfull place in history, right alongside slavers.

31

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

That’s the spirit! This is one of the most non-complicated issues ever. It’s either killing a person or it’s not. If you believe it’s not, why suppress the use of it? If it is right, why not just go nuts with it? Why shouldn’t ever woman have an abortion? If it’s not wrong, it doesn’t matter. [/quote]

This question has been getting asked over and over again now, in this thread and the other one. And in countless threads before this one. I don’t believe I’ve even once see anyone attempt to answer it.
[/quote]

The procedure is invasive and there are risks involved, as with any surgical procedure.

[/quote]

That’s not why most pro-choicers say they wish there were less abortions.

Not by any means.

32

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

That’s the spirit! This is one of the most non-complicated issues ever. It’s either killing a person or it’s not. If you believe it’s not, why suppress the use of it? If it is right, why not just go nuts with it? Why shouldn’t ever woman have an abortion? If it’s not wrong, it doesn’t matter. [/quote]

This question has been getting asked over and over again now, in this thread and the other one. And in countless threads before this one. I don’t believe I’ve even once see anyone attempt to answer it.
[/quote]

The procedure is invasive and there are risks involved, as with any surgical procedure.

[/quote]

That’s not why most pro-choicers say they wish there were less abortions.

Not by any means.
[/quote]

How do you know that? There’s a physical risk involved, and an emotional aspect that has a certain impact.

That prolifers are so quick to judge and claim that women line up just to get an abortion for fun does not mean that’s true.

That this is an answer you don’t want to hear does mean it’s invalid.

33

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

That’s the spirit! This is one of the most non-complicated issues ever. It’s either killing a person or it’s not. If you believe it’s not, why suppress the use of it? If it is right, why not just go nuts with it? Why shouldn’t ever woman have an abortion? If it’s not wrong, it doesn’t matter. [/quote]

This question has been getting asked over and over again now, in this thread and the other one. And in countless threads before this one. I don’t believe I’ve even once see anyone attempt to answer it.
[/quote]

The procedure is invasive and there are risks involved, as with any surgical procedure.

[/quote]

Well, there is a 100% mortality rate. Colonoscopies and pap smears are invasive and risky, I don’t see anybody cautioning against them…

34

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

That’s the spirit! This is one of the most non-complicated issues ever. It’s either killing a person or it’s not. If you believe it’s not, why suppress the use of it? If it is right, why not just go nuts with it? Why shouldn’t ever woman have an abortion? If it’s not wrong, it doesn’t matter. [/quote]

This question has been getting asked over and over again now, in this thread and the other one. And in countless threads before this one. I don’t believe I’ve even once see anyone attempt to answer it.
[/quote]

The procedure is invasive and there are risks involved, as with any surgical procedure.

[/quote]

Well, there is a 100% mortality rate. Colonoscopies and pap smears are invasive and risky, I don’t see anybody cautioning against them…[/quote]

A botched abortion can lead to infertility.

35

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

That’s the spirit! This is one of the most non-complicated issues ever. It’s either killing a person or it’s not. If you believe it’s not, why suppress the use of it? If it is right, why not just go nuts with it? Why shouldn’t ever woman have an abortion? If it’s not wrong, it doesn’t matter. [/quote]

This question has been getting asked over and over again now, in this thread and the other one. And in countless threads before this one. I don’t believe I’ve even once see anyone attempt to answer it.
[/quote]

The procedure is invasive and there are risks involved, as with any surgical procedure.

[/quote]

That’s not why most pro-choicers say they wish there were less abortions.

Not by any means.
[/quote]

How do you know that? There’s a physical risk involved, and an emotional aspect that has a certain impact.

That prolifers are so quick to judge and claim that women line up just to get an abortion for fun does not mean that’s true.

That this is an answer you don’t want to hear does mean it’s invalid.
[/quote]
Prolifers merely correctly point out that you are taking a human life…Not that woman do it for fun…But at 1.2 million per year, that’s a hell of fun to be had…

36

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

That’s the spirit! This is one of the most non-complicated issues ever. It’s either killing a person or it’s not. If you believe it’s not, why suppress the use of it? If it is right, why not just go nuts with it? Why shouldn’t ever woman have an abortion? If it’s not wrong, it doesn’t matter. [/quote]

This question has been getting asked over and over again now, in this thread and the other one. And in countless threads before this one. I don’t believe I’ve even once see anyone attempt to answer it.
[/quote]

The procedure is invasive and there are risks involved, as with any surgical procedure.

[/quote]

Well, there is a 100% mortality rate. Colonoscopies and pap smears are invasive and risky, I don’t see anybody cautioning against them…[/quote]

A botched abortion can lead to infertility.
[/quote]

So can a botched paps mear, reaction to birth control pills, high blood pressure, etc. Besides, if your willing to kill off your kid, infertility may not be a bad thing since you don’t want an inconvenient kid…It’s an indication you’re to selfish to have kids…

37

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

A botched abortion can lead to infertility.
[/quote]

So can a botched paps mear, reaction to birth control pills, high blood pressure, etc. Besides, if your willing to kill off your kid, infertility may not be a bad thing since you don’t want an inconvenient kid…It’s an indication you’re to selfish to have kids…[/quote]

Right, right. That must be it.

Why ask questions if all you want is a confirmation of your preconceptions?

A black and white, good vs evil, world does not exist.

Just count yourself lucky you’ll never have to make such a decision pat.

We’re men, we don’t know what it’s like.

38

A potential of life.

39

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

Why do would you care if abortion rates are low if you agree with abortion? Wouldn’t it be better if they are high?[/quote]

Believing a woman should have the option of abortion does not mean believing the woman should take it. Pro choice is not the same as pro abortion.[/quote]

If you believe abortion is right, why should it be as high an option as any other? Why shouldn’t that just be another choice, not one to be avoided? Seriously, if it’s right, it’s right, why should it ever be avoided?[/quote]

You’re confusing the right with the thing. The belief that the right to have an abortion is right is not the same as believing abortion itself is right or good.

Many see abortion as an unfortunate last resort.

Also, if you oppose abortion, shouldnt you support all the things that reduce the incidence of the circumstances where people choose to have abortions?

40

[quote]Cortes wrote:
And btw, if I accepted your premise that abortion was indeed merely a law regulating a distasteful act, then I would fully agree with you. But I don’t. Abortion takes a human life. That is not acceptable. And that is where the argument needs to start.
[/quote]

And this is the dispute. I don’t know when life begins but I highly doubt that it begins at the very moment of conception. Why? Because at that very moment there is no higher brain function - the brain has not even developed yet. What you have at this stage is a potential for human life. So the question becomes who should be given the right to decide when human life begins? Politicians? A majority of the people? Or should it be the individual? My vote is for the individual.

And for the record, I am not entirely opposed to some regulation on aborting healthy fetuses that do not threaten the mother’s life or health. However, in situations where the mother’s life and health are at risk, rape, and incest, the choice to abort should be left entirely to the individual.