[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
How about not deliberately exterminating a living thing in the first place?
This is also an idea that has changed much over time. When did people start calling into question the morality of eating meat?[/quote]
That one boggles my mind.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
It is murder to deliberately kill a human, though I’m not sure we have a consensus on that anymore in teh West.
Exactly why I call it a philosophical ambiguity. There are many who would disagree with you. I am not one of those people. I am just raising it as a point.[/quote]
Ultimately, it’s a religious question. I’m a big proponent of the idea that man is made in the imago Dei and is entitled therefore to rights and dignity, but that idea has fallen out of fashion.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
How about not deliberately exterminating a living thing in the first place?
This is also an idea that has changed much over time. When did people start calling into question the morality of eating meat?[/quote]
A human being is not a cow. I do find it interesting, however, that many of my vegetarian friends look on killing a cow with horror - yet view abortion as an issue of “choice.” Hah! Yeah. Right.
Anyway, whenever and wherever it has become acceptable to deliberately take human life - where human life is no longer seen as sacred, but as dispensable - there, I say, civilization is in danger. We have plenty of examples in the 20th century.
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
HH, would you unpack that difference for us?
Certainly. The difference is subtle for most people, yet it does exist.
To give or help because I see value in another person and wish to correct unjust suffering is a selfish act, and therefore moral PROVIDED that I gain more than I give. For example, if I give someone what to me is a trivial sum yet prevents them from suffering disaster, I enjoy that. I perceived a rational being and valued their well-being more than the sum.
Now, if I gave that person help at the cost of disaster to me, that’s an altruistic act. I put the welfare of another above my own. I lost more than I gained, I sacrificed a larger value (my well-being) for the sake of another.
(with apologies to prcaldude…)
I see what you mean, but that means altruism, as you’ve defined it, would be exceedingly rare, if it exists at all. And where your definition seems to apply to the few real-world examples I can think of, it seems to denigrate what we might otherwise call a noble act. For example, the marine who jumped on the grenade to save his buddies - should he be extolled for his bravery? Or is he an altruistic shmuck?[/quote]
Self-sacrifice resulting in death is a tough one. Ms. Rand has an article called ‘The Ethics of Emergencies’ which you might like.
If you die for a complete stranger, I’d say your motives were purely altruistic. You obviously have minimal interest in strangers. To die for people you care about has a sliding scale of value — would you die to save Chester the former child molester, who’s dad gave him a job in your department? No. Would you die for your child? Yes.
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
A human being is not a cow. I do find it interesting, however, that many of my vegetarian friends look on killing a cow with horror - yet view abortion as an issue of “choice.” Hah! Yeah. Right.
[/quote]
I’ve seriously considered starting a fake website advertising puppy abortions. That would really get some of the vegeterians/animal rights activists/abortionists riled up.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
One of the things they counsel is that it is OK to have an abortion.
[/quote]
I did not know that. Really? I thought genetic counseling was just a series of tests used to determine exactly what was wrong and what could go wrong, as well as an expert to inform and prepare the parents for such happenings.
That’s sick, and a horrible mistranslation of the wording. How was the bans exception worded exactly?
[quote]tedro wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
A human being is not a cow. I do find it interesting, however, that many of my vegetarian friends look on killing a cow with horror - yet view abortion as an issue of “choice.” Hah! Yeah. Right.
I’ve seriously considered starting a fake website advertising puppy abortions. That would really get some of the vegeterians/animal rights activists/abortionists riled up.[/quote]
Shit, that’s a great idea tedro. Perhaps it would cause an epidemic of schizophrenia. That way, they won’t show up at the voting booth in November either.
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
How has the idea of “humanity” changed?
The idea that the methods used to purposefully kill a living organism should be as painless as possible.
Not only that, there are many scientific and philosophical ambiguities concerning the nature of where life begins.
accelerating…
We’re not talking any “life” here - we’re talking about human life. It’s not murder to kill a cow. It is murder to deliberately kill a human, though I’m not sure we have a consensus on that anymore in teh West. [/quote]
It’s not a human life - it’s a potential human life.
[quote]wirewound wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
How has the idea of “humanity” changed?
The idea that the methods used to purposefully kill a living organism should be as painless as possible.
Not only that, there are many scientific and philosophical ambiguities concerning the nature of where life begins.
accelerating…
We’re not talking any “life” here - we’re talking about human life. It’s not murder to kill a cow. It is murder to deliberately kill a human, though I’m not sure we have a consensus on that anymore in teh West.
It’s not a human life - it’s a potential human life.[/quote]
Finally, somebody willing to engage in a philosophical discussion.
At what point does it become human, in your estimation?
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
wirewound wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
How has the idea of “humanity” changed?
The idea that the methods used to purposefully kill a living organism should be as painless as possible.
Not only that, there are many scientific and philosophical ambiguities concerning the nature of where life begins.
accelerating…
We’re not talking any “life” here - we’re talking about human life. It’s not murder to kill a cow. It is murder to deliberately kill a human, though I’m not sure we have a consensus on that anymore in teh West.
It’s not a human life - it’s a potential human life.
Finally, somebody willing to engage in a philosophical discussion.
At what point does it become human, in your estimation?
[/quote]
Some time after they get jobs, I guess. But I’m an aberration in that regard.
If that girl believes it was O.K to have her retarded baby killed, I don’t see how she could object to older people in the same condition being killed as well. It’s her choice if she wants to believe that, but I hope she isn’t kidding herself about whether she supports unconsented euthanasia.
[quote]Thomas Gabriel wrote:
If that girl believes it was O.K to have her retarded baby killed, I don’t see how she could object to older people in the same condition being killed as well. It’s her choice if she wants to believe that, but I hope she isn’t kidding herself about whether she supports unconsented euthanasia.[/quote]
Err… wait who are you referring to?
Gretchen Voss
I’m wondering - and I’m sorry should this go too far from the original question: while I understand that people are highly emotional about abortion - and accepting for a moment that life has already started in partial birth abortion - what about the death penalty in comparison?
It seems to me to be in a sense pretty similar: a legal procedure is being followed which allows the killing of a human being. So, what’s the venn diagram looking like here - how many anti-abortion posters here also oppose the death penalty on the grounds of killing a human being?
Just curious.
Makkun
[quote]makkun wrote:
I’m wondering - and I’m sorry should this go too far from the original question: while I understand that people are highly emotional about abortion - and accepting for a moment that life has already started in partial birth abortion - what about the death penalty in comparison?
It seems to me to be in a sense pretty similar: a legal procedure is being followed which allows the killing of a human being. So, what’s the venn diagram looking like here - how many anti-abortion posters here also oppose the death penalty on the grounds of killing a human being?
Just curious.
Makkun[/quote]
There is no joy in killing a baby. I’d experience a lot of joy in executing someone like John Cooey, who raped a litthe girl and buried her alive. I’d chuckle with delight while pulling the switch. That’s one big differenve right there.
I’m against capital punishment.
On the other hand, I don’t think prisoners should just get to hang around studying law and lifting iron. I think they should have to do hard labor that 1. benefits the community (the return of chain gangs working on roads, etc.) and 2. makes the prison self-sufficient (farming, etc.)
HH - I admit I’d feel some glee in doing so as well, but that doesn’t justify capital punishment, imo.
My religion informs my opinion about capital punishment.
One of the greatest Arhants of my religion was once a psychopathic killer named Angulimala. After an encounter with Siddhartha Gautama, during which he tried to kill the Buddha, Angulimala became a monk and later an arhant.
In Vajrayana (Tibetan) Buddhism, there is the tale of Milarepa, who was supposedly a thief and ‘black magician’ who was responsible for the deaths of several people. He also became a great (and peaceful) teacher.
If these killers can become among the greatest teachers of my religion, how would it have been worse to kill a child (who may grow up to be a thug) than it would be to kill a possible future lineage holder or arhant?
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
I’m against capital punishment.
On the other hand, I don’t think prisoners should just get to hang around studying law and lifting iron. I think they should have to do hard labor that 1. benefits the community (the return of chain gangs working on roads, etc.) and 2. makes the prison self-sufficient (farming, etc.) [/quote]
Too much potential for abuse. ‘Undesirable’ civilians and political opposition could be ‘picked up’ by corrupt police and courts and forced to feed public works. It gets greed involved in the justice system, which could only be a bad influence.
[quote]Beowolf wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
One of the things they counsel is that it is OK to have an abortion.
I did not know that. Really? I thought genetic counseling was just a series of tests used to determine exactly what was wrong and what could go wrong, as well as an expert to inform and prepare the parents for such happenings.
[/quote]
They also discuss abortion options. My wife discussed this with her doctor. She asked exactly what the genetic counseling was and her doc told her it was basically they tell you horror stories, tell you about programs that help you if you keep the kid and tell you abortion is an option. Her doc is pretty open with her because she is a bio professor.
The counselor is simply a counselor and is not involved in the testing. We are well enough informed that we do not need someone to filter the information for us.
[quote]
It doesn’t, yet partial birth abortions are done for this reason. Perfect illustration that the “health of the mother” clause is a cop out. All the doctor has to do is point put a blood pressure or insulin sensitivity issue that occurs with every pregnancy and the abortion meets that clause.
That’s sick, and a horrible mistranslation of the wording. How was the bans exception worded exactly?[/quote]
I don’t recall but the only real time a partial birth abortion is truly needed to save the mothers life is a condition when the baby’s head is too large and the baby is not viable.
Partial birth abortion has been horribly misused over the years.
[quote]wirewound wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
…
At what point does it become human, in your estimation?
Some time after they get jobs, I guess. But I’m an aberration in that regard.[/quote]
lol