Moral Issues--Abortion & Gay Marriage

[quote]ZEB wrote:
On what mertdawg wrote:

Then you should also support Polygamy and (adult) incest, and the many other possible “unions”. Why would the rights of homosexuals be more important than the rights of all of the other groups of people who would like the same benefits from civil unions, or marriage?[/quote]

a) No, I said it would have nothing to do with sexual intercourse or relations. A father and daughter could form a civil partnership for taxes and insurance benefits if they lived together and supported each other during a certain portion of their lives.

b) I’m not talking about rights. The Fed. Gov. gets to decide which pairs of individuals should be allowed to form a civil union. That would not make incest and polygamy no longer criminal. They would still be crimes as defined for the particular state in which they occurred. In some states first cousins can marry today. Polygamy and incest are “ACTIONS” homosexuality is not an action. And homosexual sex is unregulateable, as you already agree.

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
ZEB wrote:
On what mertdawg wrote:

Then you should also support Polygamy and (adult) incest, and the many other possible “unions”. Why would the rights of homosexuals be more important than the rights of all of the other groups of people who would like the same benefits from civil unions, or marriage?

a) No, I said it would have nothing to do with sexual intercourse or relations. A father and daughter could form a civil partnership for taxes and insurance benefits if they lived together and supported each other during a certain portion of their lives.

b) I’m not talking about rights. The Fed. Gov. gets to decide which pairs of individuals should be allowed to form a civil union. That would not make incest and polygamy no longer criminal. They would still be crimes as defined for the particular state in which they occurred. In some states first cousins can marry today. Polygamy and incest are “ACTIONS” homosexuality is not an action. And homosexual sex is unregulateable, as you already agree.[/quote]

I understand your point. But why limit these “special” people?

I think it should have everything to do with sexual intercourse. Why not? Why should you deny the pleasures of sex to someone who wants to have sex with multiple partners inside of marriage (polygamy). Further, why deny a sister the pleasure of marrying her brother? You seem to be limiting these groups. Why?

I am not talking about “some states.” If we are going to move the bar I want to know how far it’s going to be moved. I also want to know why one class, homosexuals, get to have it their way when there are other “different” relationships that deserve at least this much!

ZEB,

[quote]ZEB wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
ZEB wrote:
On what mertdawg wrote:

Then you should also support Polygamy and (adult) incest, and the many other possible “unions”. Why would the rights of homosexuals be more important than the rights of all of the other groups of people who would like the same benefits from civil unions, or marriage?

I think it should have everything to do with sexual intercourse. Why not? Why should you deny the pleasures of sex to someone who wants to have sex with multiple partners inside of marriage (polygamy). Further, why deny a sister the pleasure of marrying her brother? You seem to be limiting these groups. Why?

I am not talking about “some states.” If we are going to move the bar I want to know how far it’s going to be moved. I also want to know why one class, homosexuals, get to have it their way when there are other “different” relationships that deserve at least this much!

[/quote]

Perhaps it is more appropriate to give the homosexuals that chance as their activities are actually legal. Incest (even consential and adult) and polygamy are not (I’m no expert on US law, but as far as I understand, I’m correct here). That is at least one area where I see a striking difference. It makes their striving for more quite understandable and more legitimate than that of other groups, and perhaps explains the support they get from non-gays (like me). Is that enough?

Makkun

And there seems to be even more social change going on in US society - even in the pretty conservative world of Wal-Mart: Beliefnet

Any comments?

Makkun

[quote]makkun wrote:
ZEB,
ZEB wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
ZEB wrote:
On what mertdawg wrote:

Then you should also support Polygamy and (adult) incest, and the many other possible “unions”. Why would the rights of homosexuals be more important than the rights of all of the other groups of people who would like the same benefits from civil unions, or marriage?

I think it should have everything to do with sexual intercourse. Why not? Why should you deny the pleasures of sex to someone who wants to have sex with multiple partners inside of marriage (polygamy). Further, why deny a sister the pleasure of marrying her brother? You seem to be limiting these groups. Why?

I am not talking about “some states.” If we are going to move the bar I want to know how far it’s going to be moved. I also want to know why one class, homosexuals, get to have it their way when there are other “different” relationships that deserve at least this much!

Perhaps it is more appropriate to give the homosexuals that chance as their activities are actually legal. Incest (even consential and adult) and polygamy are not (I’m no expert on US law, but as far as I understand, I’m correct here). That is at least one area where I see a striking difference. It makes their striving for more quite understandable and more legitimate than that of other groups, and perhaps explains the support they get from non-gays (like me). Is that enough?

Makkun[/quote]

Oh please…the law? Did you ever hear of sodomy laws? Some of which are still on the books in some states. Not that they mean much now.

http://www.actwin.com/eatonohio/gay/sodomy.html

You must know that all those of a “different persuasion” must first get past the hurdle of the long arm of the law. No excuse there.

You have to ask yourself why you would be against these various groups who only want the same thing that homosexuals are currently fighting for.

ZEB,

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Oh please…the law? Did you ever hear of sodomy laws? Some of which are still on the books in some states. Not that they mean much now.

http://www.actwin.com/eatonohio/gay/sodomy.html[/quote]

I’m surprised at your comment on the law - just because I’m a liberal doesn’t mean that I don’t believe in the law. Fact is that the sodomy laws don’t seem to be enforced anymore. But I am sorry - I just forgot that I come from that big white old spot in the middle of your map, far from any regions with those kinds of laws… :wink:

[quote]You must know that all those of a “different persuasion” must first get past the hurdle of the long arm of the law. No excuse there.

Yep. And rightly so. Homosexual couples seem, in legal practice, to have accomplished this step. So - no excuse here.

After quietly moving away from the (adult and consential) incest argument (against there is indeed a biological argument), let’s analyse polygamy a bit:

"Polygynous societies are about four times more numerous than monogamous ones. In 1994, Theodore C. Bergstrom noted in his paper “On the Economics of Polygyny” (U. Mich. Center for Research on Economic and Social Theory, Working Paper Series 94-11) that “Although overt polygamy is rare in our own society, it is a very common mode of family organization around the world. Of 1170 societies recorded in Murdock’s Ethnographic Atlas, polygyny (some men having more than one wife) is prevalent in 850.” Polygamy - Wikipedia

Now I know - thanks JeffR, you don’t need to remind me :wink: - that this is the USA we’re talking about. And I recognise that especially polygyny is a source/symptom for discrimination of women in many cultures, as it often violates our criteria of consentiality.
Let’s just forget the fact that coercion and violence do often play a role in our classic monogamous heterosexual marriages, too. Which, from a certain degree of abuse on, is also outlawed.
And here lies the catch - if the US allows polygamy, it would have to deal with many immigrants from all those polygynous cultures, instead of just splitting them up upon entering the country. 404 - Page Not Found
And that is admittedly, and due to the large numbers of cases to be expected (as opposed to gay marriage), quite a big toad to swallow.

So let me be a realpolitician (yeah guys, bring it on!) and not a revolutionary, and say that allowing gay marriage would open a much smaller can of worms than allowing polygamy. Especially as it would reflect a socio-economic trend anyway (see my post above).

Make sense?

Makkun the Traditionalist

Sorry ZEB,

I have to admit that with my last post, I wanted to pull your leg a bit. My bad, but in the light of the fantastic imitation thread, I wanted to be creative… (although my sources are real).

You raise serious questions, and my answers are actually based on the source I have quoted - I am sceptic of polygamic relationships as they indeed often are results/symptoms of discrimination. Morally I don’t really give a toss how many people enter a relationship, but as a trained cultural scientist, I have to admit that I too, carry a bias. Essentiall, there is not much of a reason why polyamorous people should not try to get their relationships accepted. I wish them luck, but I doubt that there will be much success for at least some time.
I see homosexual relationships as being much more accepted (in our western societies), and I would like to give them their chance first to prove how responsible they can be. An experiment? Not really, essentially just accepting the fact that it already happens thousandfold right in our midst anyway - just now it would be more open an honest.

On the other hand, I do not really care for marriage, really. Morally, it has been corrupt for God only knows how long (pun intended), in my personal view; especially by the ones who often tout it as holy - but that is purely my opinion.

As to support children (the only real function it still has in my view), under current western and industrialised terms, it would make much more sense to give any financial/tax advantages to the parents (mother and father) of children, regardless of their marital status. My rationale: Single mothers have it hard enough, and accepting a child as his own for man might become quite attractive if you get the benefits (provided you pay your child support; if not - loose the advantage). That is a system I could really live with. It would concentrate the effort on the child, who needs it most, and put DINKS into the place they are really in: A couple that shares a singles-lifestyle. And that, although its fun, does not deserve any financial breaks.

Makkun

makkun:

I would have to agree that it is the children who are usually harmed both emotionally and financially, whenever there is a problem at home.

You admit a hidden bias against polygamy, I give you credit for your candor.

I think the reason that there is so much opposition to homosexual marriage is that it challenges the status quo. When has there ever been any sort of social change without large amounts of opposition?

Like any rational human I have some trepidation regarding change. Does one thing lead to another? Will the legalization of homosexual marriage lead to the legalization of other, far less acceptable forms of marital states? I do not know, but I do wonder where exactly the line will be drawn.

If nothing else this little message board debate has proven that while some are quite open to homosexuals becoming man and…um man, they are not so open to incestual marriage, or polygamy. This only proves to me that everyone of us has some sort of bias. It’s really where you want to draw the line.

Fifty years ago no one would be debating homosexuals marrying. It would have been treated no differently than the subjectof incestual marriage is today. Fifty years from now where will the line be drawn? Will there even be a line?

Again Zeb, keep in mind that I’m not suggesting that we allow homosexual marriage, but rather taking the term marriage out of the law, and putting in social unions. If you could accept that a father and son could form a social union if they became dependent on each other and lived as an adult family for a portion of their lives, then any two people should be allowed to do so. It’s not a SEX issue anymore. We don’t assume that a father and son who each lost their wives and live together during a portion of their lives have to have sex with each other do we? If the fed gov wants to let 3 adults live as a legal family that’s fine. I’m sure that there are cases where 3 adults live together as a moral family unit and that they don’t practice polygamy. We don’t have to assume that two men living together are performing homosexual activities. Its a more conservative situation with the Fed Gov backing off. If the government has to ask questions that no one has to answer too tell if two people are breaking the law then its a bad law.

I’ve said plenty on this topic in the past, but on marriage and civil unions and society, here is a very interesting series of posts from University of San Diego law professor Gail Heriot, which I have arranged chronologically:

http://therightcoast.blogspot.com/2005_01_01_therightcoast_archive.html#110585731178662036

Marriage, Schmarriage
By Gail Heriot

At USD’s Conference on the Meaning of Marriage this past weekend, my friend and colleague Larry Alexander asked why so many people are willing to tolerate or even endorse civil unions between same-sex couples and yet strongly oppose same-sex marriage. Here in California (and I suspect in some other places too), the legal rights and obligations that arise out the two institutions are precisely the same. The fight is thus essentially over the use of the word “marriage” Or, as Larry put it, what if we were to call same-sex unions “schmarriage,” but otherwise treat opposite-sex and same-sex unions the same? Would that be fine with a significant number of those who oppose same-sex marriage?

Well, maybe it would be. But I don’t think that’s evidence those people are acting irrationally. Symbols matter, especially in a debate that is about symbols. And I see the gay marriage debate as primarily about symbols–and only secondarily about marriage.

First of all, it’s important to remember that the debate over same-sex marriage is not about same-sex marriage at all. It’s about the legal recognition of same-sex marriage. There’s nothing to prevent a same-sex couple from simply declaring themselves married right now, this minute, anywhere in the United States of America. Indeed, there’s nothing to prevent the couple from having, as Shania Twain would put it, “the white dress, the guests, the cake, the car, the whole darn thing.” If they want to, they can start their own church to sanctify the union. After all, this is America. The only problem is that the law won’t recognize the marriage. But that doesn’t mean the couple and their friends and family won’t.

Strangely, however, not that many same-sex couples engage in this sort of “self-help.” (Though some do, and I’ll give them some respect for that.) When the City of San Francisco started granting marriage licenses to same-sex couples a little while ago, surprisingly few of the couples who lined up for blocks said that they already considered themselves married and they were just seeking to have the marriage legalized. They just weren’t married.

Why? There are two possible answers that would make sense to me. First is that it’s not the marriage itself that they are interested in, but rather the legal benefits that flow from the marriage. If so, legal recognition is crucial. But if that’s the case, one would expect that civil unions that provide identical benefits would be just as good. Somehow, however, for large numbers of same-sex couples, they wouldn’t be. Why not?

I think the answer is that for many same-sex couples, a legally-recognized marriage is desired precisely because they regard legal recognition as an endorsement by the community of their relationship. It says, “The State regards this relationship as a worthy one that should receive support.” The same is true of the push to have mainline churches recognize same-sex marriages. It’s not the bare fact of a religious marriage ceremony that is central, since some church, somewhere could easily be found (or created) to endorse same-sex marriage. The desire is to have a major church endorse same-sex marriage as a way of endorsing same-sex relationships generally. It’s just plain better to be able to say that the Presbyterian Church (USA), the Methodist Church or (perhaps even better) a very large church like the Roman Catholic Church, with millions of members, endorses your “life style” than it is to say that the “Tiny Church of the Castro District” endorses it. And, for many, having the church in which they were reared in is important. What being asked for is approval. It’s an undertandable thing; we all crave approval.

The problem is that other people’s approval is the one thing they’re just not entitled to. Nobody is. Approval comes voluntarily or not at all. And rightly or wrongly (and I’ll write on that later), most Americans do not wholly approve of same-sex relationships–at least not at this time and quite possibly never. That doesn’t mean that they don’t like gays or lesbians or that they want to ban same-sex relationships. And it certainly doesn’t mean that they want to turn gays and lesbians into lamp shades (One friend of mine recently suggested–with what I hope and believe was a certain degree of hyperbole–that that significant numbers of people do). But it does mean that they have reservations about public declarations that same-sex relationships are just as desirable as opposite-sex relationships. And recent elections suggest that they are not willing to be corraled into such a declaration.

That doesn’t mean that some of them, perhaps many of them, might not be willing to compromise with … uh … schmarriage … I mean civil unions, which do not put same-sex relationships on the same symbolic footing with opposite-sex relationships and hence do not call upon them to endorse same-sex and opposite-sex unions as equally desirable.

But I’ll have to get back to this later …
posted by Gail at 1/16/2005 12:01:33 AM

http://therightcoast.blogspot.com/2005_01_01_therightcoast_archive.html#110585731178662036

Marriage, Schmarriage, Part II
By Gail Heriot

My friend and soon-to-be-colleague David McGowan wrote to me about my previous post:

“I don’t quite grasp the significance you see in the idea that a
same-sex couple could declare themselves married. That is true, but
what follows from it? To me it would be a frivolous act, akin to
declaring yourself a senator, which you could do so long as you did
not defraud anyone. Perhaps some would see it as an act of protest.
Either way, it would be a legally hollow statement.”

I don’t consider it frivolous at all (and I’m surprised a libertarian like David does). A couple is married when they have promised to love each, spend their lives together, and order their lives for the benefit of the two of them, and that promise has been made publicly. If the state were to get out of the marriage business (or even outlaw marriage!!), you can bet there would still be marriages. Unlike the office of Senator, the institution of marriage is by no means simply a creature of the state.

Current law does not forbid same-sex couples from making marriage promises to each other or from even holding themselves out as a married couple. It simply denies legal recognition to that marriage. They won’t get the benefit of court intervention, applying certain one-size-fits-all dissolution rules if things don’t work out. They won’t get the marital deduction on their income tax. It may be true that a marriage that isn’t recognized by law is “legally” hollow as David suggests, but so what? That doesn’t make it actually hollow. It is filled with whatever meaning the parties to that mutual promise bring to it.

How many brides and grooms walk down the aisle thinking about the protection of the divorce law or the tax code? I hope none; most are too busy thinking about the promises of love and faithfulness (and occasionally about whether the caterers and photgraphers have arrived on time). And if you were to tell the happy couple before the wedding that state was going to change its marriage code to make exit easier or to get rid of the favorable tax treatment or even to get out of the marriage business altogether, how many marriages would be called off? Not many, I don’t suppose. Why do they do it? They do it for that promise. They do it because marriage is not just a promise whispered in the night, but a public declaration, and thus more likely to be kept. The State of California and indeed the United States of America can dry up and blow away, and the couple will still be married. Until death.

David analogizes the case to Bradwell v. Illinois (1873) ( BRADWELL v. STATE OF ILLINOIS | FindLaw ), but I think the comparison is inapt. In Bradwell, Illinois prohibited women from practicing law. Had Myra Bradwell insisted on doing so anyway, she would have been thrown in the pokey. That’s not the case here. A same sex couple can do as it pleases with no such fear. And at least under California law, the civil union laws guarantee that the couple that (if they go through the motions of the civil union) they will get the equivalent legal protections available to married couples through the back door.

Sure, right or wrongly, many people will disapprove. But as I suggested before, neither same-sex couples nor anyone else is entitled to approval.

David made some other interesting comments too that I hope to get to soon. Right now, I must grade some more exams.
posted by Gail at 1/16/2005 10:54:28 PM

http://therightcoast.blogspot.com/2005_01_01_therightcoast_archive.html#110594960245943818

Marriage, Schmarriage (Part III): A Conservative Case For and Against Same-Sex Marriage
By Gail Heriot

Since I’ve already had two earlier posts that have drawn criticism, I might as well go all the way and offend everyone: supporters and opponents of same sex marriage alike. Why else have a blog?

Let me start with the very politically incorrect topic of promiscuity. (Phew, I said it!) As I see it, promiscuity is the starting point for both a secular conservative case in favor of and a secular conservative case against the legal recognition of same-sex marriage. Gay men on average have more sexual partners than heterosexuals or lesbians. A whole lot more. The numbers differ by an order of magnitude, as my friend the astrophysicist would put it.

No, I am not saying if you are gay that you are promiscuous. And no, I am not saying if you are straight or lesbian that you are not promiscuous. (And mercy no, I do not need to hear the story of your brother Ken and his ex-wife Tiffany.) I am talking about averages. But, at least when issues of public policy are being discussed, averages matter.

Socio-biologists claim to understand all this. As they explain it, men, who can in theory father an almost unlimited number of children, have a natural tendency toward promiscuity as a reproductive strategy, while women, whose physical investment in bearing each child is great, are better off being picky about their mates and pursuing a strategy of monogamy. In heterosexual relationships, therefore, women are typically the ones to put the brakes on things. And among gay men, no one is there to serve that function. In the end, however, I do not much care if the socio-biologists are wrong or right. For my purpose, it is enough to know that gay men are on average significantly more promiscuous than both women and straight men.

So what? you may ask, What is the matter with sex? And to be honest, you may be right. But the judgment of the ages has been that long-term promiscuity often leads to an unhappy life, to regret, and finally to a lonely old age and death�and that a few other people usually get hurt along the way. Don Juan is not a happy or sympathetic figure in literature, and neither are most of his fellow life-long libertines.

Can I absolutely prove that promiscuity leads to unhappiness? Of course not. There are limits to proving who is happy and who is unhappy and even greater limits to proving why. Social science cannot take you everywhere. These are among the reasons I would never dream of outlawing promiscuous conduct (or homosexual conduct). But that doesn�t mean that the traditional view is mistaken. And it does not mean that I would oppose all non-coercive sanctions that might subtly influence people to walk the traditional straight and narrow.

For example, if I were a mother, I would consider it my duty to cajole, to nag and, in extreme cases when I thought it would be effective, even to threaten to disinherit my adult son or daughter if I knew he or she was engaging in seriously promiscuous conduct. On this, it would not matter if they were gay or straight. And if the neighbor lady were to give them the evil eye when she observes a different man or woman leaving their apartment every morning, so much the better. The world is not black and white. The fact that certain conduct ought not be prohibited does not by any means that it ought not be subject to more subtle sanctions. Sometimes it means that subtle sanctions are all the more important.

Some would say that the government (as opposed to the neighbor lady and me) should not play favorites among what philosophers call �conflicting visions of the good life.� So long as it is not clearly and directly hurting anyone, conduct ought to be both legal and free from state influence, subtle or not-so-subtle.

But, to me, that seems both wrong in the abstract and not remotely the world we live in. Surely, when the Congressional Medal of Honor is awarded, the government is playing favorites between different visions of good conduct. Some people might regard an antiwar protester’s conduct as more praiseworthy than the military hero’s, but it seems odd (and probably in the end suicidal for the state) to take the position that it cannot choose to reward only the military hero. The same may go for other conduct that the state may wish to praise or even subsidize�including volunteering one’s time or spending one�s money on charitable activities. It would be odd to say that the state must also praise and subsidize those who spend their time and money betting on the ponies at the race track just because gambling is not actually prohibited.

Perhaps it ought to work this way: Conduct ought not be prohibited unless a strong case can be made for its harmfulness to third parties and the prohibition is applied evenhandedly. And sometimes the provision of benefits (or the imposition of fees) can be so large that the case ought to be treated as a prohibition. But lesser benefits and endorsements should be subject to somewhat lesser standards. The state should not be able to act whimsically by giving special recognition or small subsidies to people whose names begin with A-K, but it should not be held to the same standards of direct and provable harm (or benefit) that it would be if the conduct were being prohibited either.

All of this is a rather long way of getting around to say that it does not seem categorically wrong for the state to engage in some policies that are designed to subtly influence people away from promiscuous conduct. That’s not to say that all such policies would be a good idea; most would probably be too heavy handed. But the legal recognition of marriage and the creation of certain tax incentives in favor of marriage do not strike me as obviously inappropriate or any more objectionable than tax incentives to home ownership. It is important not to get overly puritanical about being anti-puritanical.

It is fair to ask at this point which way all of this cuts when it comes to same-sex marriage. And I think the best answer is that it is not completely clear. On the one hand, one could make the argument that the legal recognition of same-sex marriage might promote monogamy among the gay population and hence conservatives interested in dampening promiscuity ought to support it, maybe even promote it. If gay men were given an extra incentive to enter into long-term, monogamous relationships, more of them might do it.

All that does not strike me as obviously wrong. But the opposite argument is also plausible: that legal recognition of same-sex marriages might in the long run have negative effects. First, by removing some of the subtle social and political pressures not to be gay, those men with bisexual tendencies who might otherwise have identified themselves as primarily straight and entered into a monogamous relationship or marriage might just start identifying themselves as primarily gay and not enter into a monogamous relationship. Second, same-sex marriage may inevitably have higher rates of faithlessness and divorce than opposite-sex marriage (particularly opposite-sex marriages with children) and this might further damage the already-embattled institution of marriage. Conservatives should therefore oppose same-sex marriage.

I freely admit that my conservative case against same-sex marriage is riddled with the word might. But that does not resolve the issue, since my conservative case in favor of same sex marriage is riddled with the word might too. Which forecast is right and which is wrong? Where does the burden of proof lie? And is there anything same-sex marriage advocates (or opponents) can do to improve the appeal of their arguments? What role, if any, should civil unions play here? Or same-sex marriages that do not enjoy legal recognition?

Fortunately for you the reader, this post is already much too long, so I can beg off until at least tomorrow. But stay tuned for Part IV …
posted by Gail at 1/18/2005 10:56:20 PM

http://therightcoast.blogspot.com/2005_01_01_therightcoast_archive.html#110618969701725706

Marriage, Schmarriage (Part IV): Edmund Burke Weighs In
By Gail Heriot

When I left off last time, I was saying that there are two conservative arguments that can be made on same-sex marriage–one in favor and the other against. Both can begin with the (undeniable) fact that gay men on average, though not necessarily in individual cases, have many more sexual partners than do straight men or women and the (more contestable, but in my view probably correct) view that in general this promiscuity is not a good thing.

Talking about this issue can be hazardous, so I would prefer that you go back and read my earlier posts. That way if you are unhappy, you will at least be unhappy over what I am actually saying, rather than some mistaken notion of it. But to recap: One could argue that the recognition of same-sex marriage will promote promiscuity by removing some of the traditional stigma that once attached to a gay lifestyle, hence increasing at the margin the number of people who engage in that lifestyle (or in a promiscuous heterosexual lifestyle). One could also argue that extremely high rates of infidelity and divorce are likely to result from such marriages, which could end up having negative effects on the already-embattled institution of traditional marriage. The problem is that the opposite argument is plausible too. Allowing same sex-marriage might, to some extent, “domesticate” gay relationships and dampen gay promiscuity by causing a larger number of gays to commit to monogamy. Dampening that promiscuity might also have an indirect effect on straights.

It’s worth noting, however, that while one “can make” a plausible argument in favor of same-sex marriage from the standpoint of social conservatism, one doesn’t often hear it actually being made (except as part of a Right Coast law professor’s musings). And I don’t think this is because conservatives are stupid or motivated by ill will. I think it is something more fundamental to the conservative psyche (and I believe on the whole quite reasonable).

Nobody knows with anything approaching certainty which of the many plausible predictions about the effects of a change in public policy on this issue would actually come true. And anybody who thinks he does is a fool. What we can say is that marriage is one of the most fundamental institutions in our culture. It has a lot to do with how we rear our children (at least when we do it well), how we care for the elderly and infirm, how we pass on property from one generation to the next, and how we love and live our lives. And in the past several decades, it has been under considerable pressure. Rates of illegitimacy and divorce have been high. Celebrity marriage have helped to bring the institution into disrepute. From the standpoint of many conservatives, therefore, the issue is, Should we risk even the possibility of further harm?

Amy Wax (U. Penn.) presented a paper at USD’s recent Conference on the Meaning of Marriage, which she has tentatively titled, “The Conservative’s Dilemma: Social Science, Social Change and Traditional Institutions.” The article is still in very preliminary form, so I won’t quote from it, but I will summarize one or two of her points as I understand them. She argues that the conservative position against same-sex marriage has not been well-represented in the newspapers, magazines or the academic literature, but that a conservative in the tradition of Edmund Burke might articulate it this way: It is precisely because we cannot be sure of the consequences that we should avoid tinkering with the traditional concept of marriage. (Or as Burke put it, when man “tinker[s] impudently with [tradition] … [he] is left awfully afloat in a sea of emotions and ambitions, with only the scanty stock of formal learning and the puny resources of individual reason to sustain him.” Since we cannot know in advance what effects our social experiments will have, we had better be careful. Incremental change should be strongly preferred over more radical approaches.

All of this seems reasonable to me. When it comes to institutions as important and potentially fragile as marriage, we need to be cautious about the winds of change and humble about our ability to judge how they will affect us. For me, that means that a heavy burden of proof must be upon those who advocate the legal recognition of same-sex marriage, especially when they attempt to do so via the courts rather than the ballot box.

Does that end the matter? Not quite. As I suggested in my original Marriage, Schmarriage post, there are less sweeping approaches that make sense to me, which I will elaborate on in my next (and perhaps final) post on same-sex marriage. In the meantime, don’t touch that dial …
posted by Gail at 1/20/2005 12:41:52 AM

http://therightcoast.blogspot.com/2005_01_01_therightcoast_archive.html#110643344048892642

Marriage, Schmarriage (Part V): Same-Sex Marriage and Lesbians
By Gail Heriot

In my last installment in this Marriage, Schmarriage series (for earlier posts see here, here, here, and here), I said that maybe my next post would be the last. No such luck. I’ve gotten lots of thoughtful responses, so I have to try to do justice to at least some of them. If you haven’t been keeping up with the series, I urge you to go back through the earlier posts to get a sense of what I’m trying to say. As I am sure you are aware, Gentle Reader, this is a bit of a touchy subject with some people.

Brett McDonnell (U. Minn), who is visiting here at USD this semester, urges me not to ignore lesbians in my argument. He writes, “The very same factors that make gay men more promiscuous than straight couples should make lesbians less promiscuous.” Brett is, of course, quite right. Both the theory and the empirical evidence suggest that lesbian couples are, if anything, more monogamous than straight couples. The issue of lesbian marriage is thus arguably different, and I can easily imagine thoughtful people coming to a different conclusion concerning it.

But in the public mind the issues are bundled together–in part because most members of the public haven’t given it much thought, in part because the same-sex marriage movement and the gay movement generally have presented the issue as a bundled one, and in part because modern constitutional law doctrine would probably make it impossible to unbundle them. As a result, if lesbian marriage were legally recognized, same-sex marriage between men would follow almost immediately (and vice versa). A person who believes that same sex marriage between women by itself would, all others things considered, be a good thing, but that same-sex marriage between men would be a bad thing, must somehow balance the two against each other and arrive at a single conclusion.

Is that a slippery slope argument? If so, it’s worth pointing out that it has been repeatedly said that Burkean conservatism and slippery slope arguments are antithetical. And, in a limited sense, that’s true. Much of Burke’s argument is that cultural context and nuance matter. If he was able to distinguish between the American and the French Revolutions, then Burkean conservatives ought to be willing to distinguish among issues that are similar but not identical, even when other people can’t or won’t.

But that argument applies only when the Burkean conservative is himself or herself the policymaker. It seems perfectly reasonable for the Burkean conservative to take the position that when two issues cannot realistically be separated from each other in the minds of the ultimate decisionmakers (which in a democracy will ordinarily be the voters, though in our democracy is sometimes the judiciary), it doesn’t matter if they are arguably distinguishable. Fate has put them together.
posted by Gail at 1/22/2005 01:58:36 PM

http://therightcoast.blogspot.com/2005_01_01_therightcoast_archive.html#110644213678760029

Marriage, Schmarriage (Part VI): Will Same-Sex Marriage Really Affect Anything?
By Gail Heriot

A couple of my correspondents have expressed doubt that same-sex marriage will have either of the effects that I’ve talked about in my earliers posts here, here, here, here and here.

Tom Chatt, for example, who sent me an extremely thoughtful response favoring same-sex marriage, expressed doubt that it will have the upside effect of dampening promiscuity among members of the gay community and suggested instead that only committed couples will enter into such marriages. (I liked his teasing example: “‘Oh honey, why don’t we get married? True, we’ll have to give up promiscuity, but we’ll get tax breaks!’”)

On the other hand, Brett McDonnell, whose interestng and fair-minded response I mentioned in my last post, concentrated his doubt on my downside effect–that traditional marriage will be harmed by the introduction of same-sex marriage. He asks: “Is the idea that straight people will see gay men being unfaithful to their husbands, figure it’s OK, and go out and do the same? … Is that really a plausible story?”

(Somehow this reminds me of “Broken Windows,” James Q. Wilson and George L. Krelling’s 1982 article in Atlantic Monthly. They suggested that scrubbing away graffiti, cleaning up trash, and fixing broken windows might reduce crime in high-crime neighborhoods. Many people, used to the modern cliche that you shouldn’t “sweat the small stuff,” considered all this counter-intuitive and teased them with scenarios like this: “Sluggo, that new flower pot in the park is so pretty that I think I’m going to give up my life of crime!” But Wilson and Krelling stood their ground, and the evidence now suggests that they may well have been right. (See
Fixing Broken Windows by George L. Krelling and Catherine M. Coles.))

The truth is that there are eight million stories in the Naked City. And at every given moment thousands and thousands of people are facing tough questions for which they plausibly could go either way. Should I get married? Should I get divorced? Should I tell my husband what I really think of him? Should I punch my brother-in-law in the nose for what he did to my sister? And the ever popular, should I give this damn thing one more try?

Can the legal recognition of same-sex marriage (which fair-minded people agree is likely to have higher rates of break-up than traditional marriage, particularly traditional marriages that involve children) affect some of those decisions? I can’t see how it could fail to. To me, the interesting issue is which effects will dominate, not whether there will be such effects. Consider these hypotheticals:

****Susan may be the sort of woman who has a hard time committing to anything, but once she does, she tends to do well. Her problem is that when she is considering whether to marry her boyfriend, she can’t help but remember what a terrible time her older brother had when he was divorcing his same-sex spouse. In the end, it’s just enough to give her cold feet.

****Beth learns that her husband has been spotted in a restaurant stroking the shoulder of a female colleague. It’s not clear that he has actually cheated on her (and in fact he hasn’t–yet). Her instinct is to confront her husband and ask for an explanation (and in this case her instinct would have been correct, since it would have snapped her husband back into reality, before things had gone too far). But she confides in a gay friend who advises her that he keeps his own same-sex marriage intact by ignoring minor indiscretions. Only half-convinced, she reins herself in somewhat and simply asks her husband where he had lunch that day. When he answers that he had lunch at his desk, she stares darts at him, but he is too thick to notice. Undeterred, his relationship with his colleague gets out of hand.

****Bob’s marriage to Carolyn has generally been a happy one, both inside and outside the bedroom. Bob, however, has always regarded himself as a potential bisexual. He has never acted on this interest of his; ten years ago he considered it, but decided that getting caught by anyone would be the most humiliating thing that could happen to him, even if Carolyn and the children never found out. Lately, however, he’s noticed that such things just don’t seem to carry with them the same social stigma they used to, in part because of the legal recognition of same-sex marriage. This time he decides to go through with it.

Similar hypotheticals can be imagined for the upside argument that same-sex marriage could somehow “domesticate” the gay lifestyle. Of course, Tom is right that few gay couples would be thinking, “Hey, now that the law has changed, we should give up our promiscuous lifestyle and get married!” But that’s not the point. The idea is not that a proposed change in the law could move some people from A to Z. Instead, such a change could move a lot of people a little bit–from A to B, B to C, and Y to Z. A previously committed couple may get married and even hold a big wedding to mark the occasion. Their best friend, who is not so committed, but on the whole would prefer it, is inspired by their example and tries a little harder to find someone special. And he succeeds. His neighbor has an adult son who is into the bathhouse scene, and she steps up her criticism of him. The son responds not by giving up the bathhouse, but by joining to local gay youth club that goes bowling on Friday nights (one of three nights a week he previously used to frequent the bathhouses.) Gradually, he is pulled away from the most promiscuous lifestyle into to one that is somewhat less promiscuous–a small victory for Mom, but still a victory.

Well, that’s just six stories. There are 7,999,994 more to tell. When we add them all up, which of these effects–upside or downside—will ultimately outweigh the other? As I suggested in my earlier posts, I don’t know. I am just another of Burke’s error-prone mortals “with the puny resources of individual reason to sustain” me. But to me, that’s precisely why caution is in order.

posted by Gail at 1/24/2005 03:49:53 PM

http://therightcoast.blogspot.com/2005_01_01_therightcoast_archive.html#110679487376448528

Marriage, Schmarriage (Part VII): Partial Measures and the Ability to Reconsider
By Gail Heriot

In this series, I believe that I have laid out plausible conservative arguments in favor of and against the legal recognition of same-sex marriage. See here and here. But for reasons that I have already described, I am somewhat more persuaded by the argument against.

In this post, I want to get back to a point that I made in Part I ( The Right Coast ) that the choice for same-sex couples is not between the legal recognition of same-sex couples and nothing at all. There are at least two options available under current law. First, nothing prevents a same-sex couple from simply declaring themselves to be married and attempting to live their lives accordingly. (See Part II The Right Coast ). No, the marriage would not be legally recognized (and would not carry with it tax or other legal benefits). But marriage has been around a lot longer than governments, and I’ll wager that if the state ever withers away, as Mr. Marx so famously predicted, marriage will still be here. For most purposes (and certainly for the most important purposes), legal recognition is quite beside the point.

Second, in many states now, a same-sex couple may enter into a civil union, which at least here in California carries with it precisely the same benefits as traditional marriage. What’s at issue is simply the use of the word marriage–and the symbolic statement that homosexual unions and heterosexual unions are equally deserving of the state’s protection and nurture.

It’s interesting to think how our experience with these options will affect the debate over time. For example, if private marriages and civil unions turn out to have infidelity and divorce rates that are similar to those of traditional marriage, that would go a long way to convince skeptics like me that same-sex marriage would be a good thing and that present concerns are unfounded. Alternatively, if divorce rates are very high, that might help convince some same-sex marriage enthusiasts that same-sex marriage is not such a great idea after all.

Of course, the opportunity to re-evaluate the issue may never come in some states. When same-sex marriage advocates decided to pursue a litigation strategy rather than attempt to persuade voters to support their cause, opponents opted for the only counter-strategy available to them: They passed state constitutional amendments defining marriage to rule out same-sex marriage. (That’s how democracy works you know.) Same-sex marriage advocates will thus have a tougher time switching to a “go slow” strategy than they would have had had they started with it. Now they will have to work to repeal these amendments–no easy task.
posted by Gail at 1/26/2005 10:17:29 PM

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Again Zeb, keep in mind that I’m not suggesting that we allow homosexual marriage, but rather taking the term marriage out of the law, and putting in social unions. If you could accept that a father and son could form a social union if they became dependent on each other and lived as an adult family for a portion of their lives, then any two people should be allowed to do so. It’s not a SEX issue anymore. We don’t assume that a father and son who each lost their wives and live together during a portion of their lives have to have sex with each other do we? If the fed gov wants to let 3 adults live as a legal family that’s fine. I’m sure that there are cases where 3 adults live together as a moral family unit and that they don’t practice polygamy. We don’t have to assume that two men living together are performing homosexual activities. Its a more conservative situation with the Fed Gov backing off. If the government has to ask questions that no one has to answer too tell if two people are breaking the law then its a bad law.[/quote]

No, no sorry, I insist that everyone be having sex!

Seriously, you have raised some good points. However, I am not for “social unions” as they will be badly abused for financial purposes.

BB, excellent input as always. Very interesting.

ZEB,

[quote]ZEB wrote:
makkun:

I would have to agree that it is the children who are usually harmed both emotionally and financially, whenever there is a problem at home.

You admit a hidden bias against polygamy, I give you credit for your candor.

I think the reason that there is so much opposition to homosexual marriage is that it challenges the status quo. When has there ever been any sort of social change without large amounts of opposition?

Like any rational human I have some trepidation regarding change. Does one thing lead to another? Will the legalization of homosexual marriage lead to the legalization of other, far less acceptable forms of marital states? I do not know, but I do wonder where exactly the line will be drawn.

If nothing else this little message board debate has proven that while some are quite open to homosexuals becoming man and…um man, they are not so open to incestual marriage, or polygamy. This only proves to me that everyone of us has some sort of bias. It’s really where you want to draw the line.

Fifty years ago no one would be debating homosexuals marrying. It would have been treated no differently than the subjectof incestual marriage is today. Fifty years from now where will the line be drawn? Will there even be a line?[/quote]

I see your point. Sure we all carry a bias. And the lines we draw are normally the result of convention - even if the convention is very old and regarded “natural”, it quite often just isn’t.

Yes, it might be that in 100 years, polygamous marriage will have become a norm in the “western world”. There are quite a few cultures that would see that as far more natural than gay marriage (check a few African cultures’ views on homosexuality).

Is it more natural? Nope. What’s moral or natural is mostly affected by what we perceive as such by the conventions we have agreed upon (at least if you follow a constructivist approach). But defining conventions is a continuous process - and it just goes on. For example even a marriage based on mutual romantic love was seen as a revolutionary break of traditions (and regarded a danger to moral values) just a bit more than 200 years ago. Did it destroy our cultures? No. It has shaped them and helped them develop strategies in dealing with changes in living conditions which helped couples build then “modern” relationships and families.

Perhaps we are at such a breakpoint now when it comes to gay marriage - I don’t know. I understand that people are cautious about the topic; but I tend to think that trying to hold back a social trend that is just materialising with increasing strength will simply not succeed.

Makkun

[quote]makkun wrote:

Is it more natural? Nope. What’s moral or natural is mostly affected by what we perceive as such by the conventions we have agreed upon (at least if you follow a constructivist approach). But defining conventions is a continuous process - and it just goes on. [/quote]

This is precisely the mistake that people make- allowing convention to define what is natural or right. Societies norms sometimes change for the better and sometimes for the worse. For example, in China where polygamy was legal in the l800s and into the 1900s, a marriage law was just written a few years ago to make it harder on men who take on (defacto) 2nd wives. The communists stamped out this past practice in the 1950s, and most recognize this as a good thing, even though it was a deeply entrenched cultural norm. Hoorah for progress. The problem came back with a vengeance in the 80’s, so much so that, as I said, it had to be addressed with a rewritten law. Surely the Chinese family is better off if the husband is constrained by law not to take his secretary as his concubine. So you see, the norms go up and down.

Relativism will not do. There must be an absolute standard. We can find it in the bible. If people had a deeper understanding of the bible, society would be much better off.

Here is an example of what bible ignorance produces. Did you know that there is a whole book in the bible about romantic love and sexual attraction? Yet Victorian society had it backwards. Bible ignorance is the undoing of a society.

As you know Makkun, it was the publishing of the bible in the common tongue that brought Europe out of the dark ages.

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
makkun wrote:

Is it more natural? Nope. What’s moral or natural is mostly affected by what we perceive as such by the conventions we have agreed upon (at least if you follow a constructivist approach). But defining conventions is a continuous process - and it just goes on.

This is precisely the mistake that people make- allowing convention to define what is natural or right. Societies norms sometimes change for the better and sometimes for the worse. For example, in China where polygamy was legal in the l800s and into the 1900s, a marriage law was just written a few years ago to make it harder on men who take on (defacto) 2nd wives. The communists stamped out this past practice in the 1950s, and most recognize this as a good thing, even though it was a deeply entrenched cultural norm. Hoorah for progress. The problem came back with a vengeance in the 80’s, so much so that, as I said, it had to be addressed with a rewritten law. Surely the Chinese family is better off if the husband is constrained by law not to take his secretary as his concubine. So you see, the norms go up and down.

Relativism will not do. There must be an absolute standard. We can find it in the bible. If people had a deeper understanding of the bible, society would be much better off.

For example even a marriage based on mutual romantic love was seen as a revolutionary break of traditions (and regarded a danger to moral values) just a bit more than 200 years ago. Makkun
Here is an example of what bible ignorance produces. Did you know that there is a whole book in the bible about romantic love and sexual attraction? Yet Victorian society had it backwards. Bible ignorance is the undoing of a society.

As you know Makkun, it was the publishing of the bible in the common tongue that brought Europe out of the dark ages.
[/quote]

I agree about the bible ignorance and in absolute moral law. Boy, I sure hope your Catholic (guessing from the Kerry picture). The US is the ultimate protestant kingdom, and as I’ve said before its the fractioning of American protestantism into 10,000 sects and denomonations that gace birth to moral relativism. It didn’t exist anywhere before. If you believe that history, context and intent are important in interpreting the law, you have to submit to the fact that the context of US law is protestant relativism. Backtracking doesn’t work. Earthly govenments have an inevitable flow toward relativism. It is a one way valve.

By the way, publishing the bible didn’t end the dark ages, although the printing press was important. The dark ages ended in the worlds first Liberal revolution. The greatness of man! The deification of humanity! This is the quintessential definition provided many weeks ago from Webster via HSPDER.

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Boy, I sure hope your Catholic (guessing from the Kerry picture).[/quote]
Catholic, far from it. The more you read the bible, the more you understand Roman doctrine is a pack of lies. The Kerry photo was for fun. I suppose it’s about time to change it, since he is already irrelevent.

Perhaps you don’t know it, but this is exactly what the bible predicts. That’s way man is hopeless without God.

Yes, the first thing that Gutenberg printed was the bible.

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
Boy, I sure hope your Catholic (guessing from the Kerry picture).
Catholic, far from it. The more you read the bible, the more you understand Roman doctrine is a pack of lies. The Kerry photo was for fun. I suppose it’s about time to change it, since he is already irrelevent.

Earthly govenments have an inevitable flow toward relativism. It is a one way valve.
Perhaps you don’t know it, but this is exactly what the bible predicts. That’s way man is hopeless without God.

By the way, publishing the bible didn’t end the dark ages, although the printing press was important.

Yes, the first thing that Gutenberg printed was the bible.[/quote]

You can’t definitively say what ended the dark ages (in the west by the way). The Copernican revolution? The reinvention of lense quality glass? Many mark it with the Amedici contracting out to make some famous church doors.

Mr. Chen,

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
makkun wrote:

Is it more natural? Nope. What’s moral or natural is mostly affected by what we perceive as such by the conventions we have agreed upon (at least if you follow a constructivist approach). But defining conventions is a continuous process - and it just goes on.

This is precisely the mistake that people make- allowing convention to define what is natural or right. Societies norms sometimes change for the better and sometimes for the worse. …

So you see, the norms go up and down.

Relativism will not do. There must be an absolute standard. We can find it in the bible. If people had a deeper understanding of the bible, society would be much better off.[/quote]

Relativism would be basically trying to excuse any social change by “it has happened, so it is good”. That is not what I intended, and not what I said.

Analysing social change (or any cultural phenomenon) requires observation (of in our case a shift towards an acceptance of gay relationships), interpretation (why is it happening?) and evaluation (do we like it happening?).
Observation: Yes, it happens.
Interpretation: A wide range of explanations from “changed attitudes towards relationships in postmodern societies in conjunction with economic change (see Walmart example above)” to “the Antichrist is coming” are possible.
Evaluation: Everything from “yes, is to be supported as it normalises formerly stigmatised behaviour” to “not sure - the changes do not only bring advantages, but also damage” to “no, it is immoral and therefore has to be fought”.

The answers in this thread were often quite a mixture of these responses. My response definitely tends towards a pro-gay marriage stance, but some of the points brought by the sceptics (like ZEB) have made me rethink some of my arguments. Your stance that there are clear guidelines given by the bible does not convince me as an atheist - although I do normally respect that in many instances the bible gives useful tips on how to live our lives (in my opinion just not in this case).

My main point is that societies tend to change, whether people really like it or not. Normally there is an underlying necessity for the change, otherwise people would not let this paradigm change happen. Certain core values (a Christian would count the 10 commandments in that category) tend to change only very seldom. But it can happen - and there have been many rules from for example the bible that have been abandonded by a change in consensus - convention. How we evaluate that, is of no consequence to the fact that it happens.

My evaluation is that it is unrealistic to expect people to move towards a moral system that they tend not to be able to uphold anymore - and the former Christian in me says that it is good that the core values are still being respected after 2000 years, as I support most of them; but the liberal in me greets the changes as acceptable and in accordance with the changed social environment we live in.

[quote]For example even a marriage based on mutual romantic love was seen as a revolutionary break of traditions (and regarded a danger to moral values) just a bit more than 200 years ago.
Makkun, Here is an example of what bible ignorance produces. Did you know that there is a whole book in the bible about romantic love and sexual attraction? Yet Victorian society had it backwards. Bible ignorance is the undoing of a society.[/quote]

Yes, I know. I wasn’t refering to Victorianism though, but the romantic revolution sweeping through Europe in the early 18th century, when it became a fashion, a trend, a life-style and finally the norm, not to base marriage on the economic interests of the families (parents) involved, but on the mutual amorous interest of the couple itself. We see that as normal today, but during those times it was revolutionary. It does not mean that the idea was not around before, but that there was no social consent (convention) accepting this as the cultural norm.

I doubt, personally, that not following the bible is detrimental to society, but respect your position that you think it is. That you might call relativism. :wink:

Well yes, 1455 with the Gutenberg bibles. But it, in effect, that also brought schism to the church which led to the 30 years war 1618-1868 - which brought on a terrible dark age with massacres and pestilence (the plague).

Makkun

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
Relativism will not do. There must be an absolute standard. We can find it in the bible. If people had a deeper understanding of the bible, society would be much better off.[/quote]

I’m gonna sound like the turd in your coffee here, but how do you know this? There are no moral absolutes. I’m sure that pretty much anyone can think of a set of circumstances where it would be justifiable to break any of the ten commandments… do you agree? Then, that means that the bible morality is not absolute, right? We are all moral relativists – just to differing degrees sometimes.

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:

I’m gonna sound like the turd in your coffee here, but how do you know this? There are no moral absolutes. I’m sure that pretty much anyone can think of a set of circumstances where it would be justifiable to break any of the ten commandments… do you agree? Then, that means that the bible morality is not absolute, right? We are all moral relativists – just to differing degrees sometimes.
[/quote]

Who are you justifying it to? Sounds like you are talking about situational ethics, not morals.

Here is the moral section of the Ten Commandments.

Exo 20:12 Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long upon the land which Jehovah your God gives you.
Exo 20:13 You shall not kill.
Exo 20:14 You shall not commit adultery.
Exo 20:15 You shall not steal.
Exo 20:16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Exo 20:17 You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.

I would have to ask when is it justifiable to not respect someone, to commit adultery, to steal, to lie, to want other people’s stuff?

You could find a time when we might understand why you did it, but I doubt anyone would say it is ok.

That again though would be situational ethics, and not morals.

[quote]haney wrote:
lothario1132 wrote:

I’m gonna sound like the turd in your coffee here, but how do you know this? There are no moral absolutes. I’m sure that pretty much anyone can think of a set of circumstances where it would be justifiable to break any of the ten commandments… do you agree? Then, that means that the bible morality is not absolute, right? We are all moral relativists – just to differing degrees sometimes.

Who are you justifying it to? Sounds like you are talking about situational ethics, not morals.

Here is the moral section of the Ten Commandments.

Exo 20:12 Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long upon the land which Jehovah your God gives you.
Exo 20:13 You shall not kill.
Exo 20:14 You shall not commit adultery.
Exo 20:15 You shall not steal.
Exo 20:16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Exo 20:17 You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.

I would have to ask when is it justifiable to not respect someone, to commit adultery, to steal, to lie, to want what other people’s stuff?

You could find a time when we might understand why you did it, but I doubt anyone would say it is ok.

That again though would be situational ethics, and not morals.
[/quote]

The word Jehovah does not appear in the bible. It’s a medieval invention right?