People don’t change?
The average 70-something can’t now, in 2017, be less racist than a 20-something?
We weren’t discussing if America’s culture has changed. We were discussing if the “average” 70 year old is less/more racist than the “average” 20-year-old in today’s world.
I went on to say:
You seem to be attributing the result of my third scenario to the premise of my second.
To be more plainspoken: White-centric does not mean 'aimed exclusively at whites.’
Time for a thought experiment.
A 20 y.o. and a 70 y.o white American are selected at random from the general population of the nation. For each, their level of racism is measured in a manner you have pre-approved as being fair and valid. You are required to bet a house-note on which one is less racist. Question: Who are you going to bet on?
On average? I don’t believe so. There’s always going to be a certain segment of society that rejects change. As time goes on, we see that people become more or less “set in their ways” regarding (sometimes useless, sometimes important) key topics.
Yes we were. Your point earlier was you can’t judge people that grew up in vastly different time periods by the same standards, yes? If that holds true, there needs to be a REASON we don’t judge them by the same standards. I believe this reason is because it’s simply ignorant to believe that a certain level of a person’s personality is driven by the society they grew up in.
If we ARE judging everyone by the same standards, and ignoring the society they grew up in, we find that older people are less in lock with current day society (because it’s not the one that molded them). Therefore we logically find more people tuned into the “older” society (which in this case was much more racist).
If we AREN’T judging everyone by the same standards, there has to be a reason to avoid consistency. That reason (imo) is because societies shape viewpoints and the society of the segregation days was more lax re: racism.
Personally I’m fine with either of these scenarios, as I’m pretty comfortable with both proving my point.
And then I said:
and TB said (and I agreed):
To which you replied:
Meaning had roles been reverse TB (and I) would be doing exactly what you’re doing using voting data to support the notion that Trump’s economic policy was aimed at whites.
So, we’re right back to you arguing his policy was aimed at the white working class only.
This is complete nonsense. I’m surprised you’d even throw it up here. The last time I participated in a “thought experiment” I was called an HRC supporter for 6 months. You’ll have to forgive me for not making a wild guess based on absolutely nothing.
Ya, no we weren’t. I certainly never was.
I did indeed ‘use voting data to support the notion that Trump’s economic policy was aimed at whites.’ What I did not do (and what is the subject of this sidebar) is argue that a white-centric message is aimed exclusively at whites.
If thought experiments are ‘nonsensical,’ someone should have told Einstein before he developed the Theory of Special Relativity, as he relied heavily on them in its development (he called them gedanken).
And I am not asking you to ‘make a wild guess based on nothing;’ I’m asking you to make a special kind of selection (called a forced-choice paradigm) based solely on pt age.
And I hereby pledge that, no matter what answer you give, I won’t call you an HRC supporter for longer than a month. Two months tops.
Okay… I give up. “Thus, it is reasonable to conclude that Trump’s message targeted disaffected white, ie, was IP aimed at this group,” apparently doesn’t mean aimed at just white people… I don’t even know what to say anymore. This is why my PWI post count is way down.
Not thought experiments, this thought experiment and most on PWI.
How is the notion that we judge people of different ages differently because of the times they were alive (culture) in anything but a discussion of how America’s culture has changed?
Because it was just a side note pointing out that it doesn’t make sense to apply today’s norms and standards onto prior generations because of context. I.e. why it doesn’t make sense to even compare levels of racism by generation in the first place.
We weren’t discussing cultural shifts we were discussing a very specific topic and you’re trying to extrapolate to some broader discussion. That’s fine, but not what I was talking about.
I don’t buy that on average old people are more racist than young people simply because we are, at least on the surface, more tolerant, generally. Who lived through and helped force this shift, not 20 somethings. It’s like saying 2nd gen American’s are more patriotic than the founders because they never lived under the Crown. Ya, the founders just risk life and limb to make America free.
People change and are agents of change, at least in my world view.
Reminds me, I need to see mine before the end of the year. I am losing the near part and I am already dyslexic sooo, not a good combo. If you’ve see posts where I have flipped words, that would be why…
Letters, numbers, anything horizontal never stands still, it always moves.
If anything has changed, it is the awareness that saying something racists or that can be construed as racist is unacceptable has risen.
That doesn’t necessarily mean that the attitude or actions have changed.
I think more than just that has changed, but that was what I was driving at.
OK then, let’s open it up to everyone else.
Everyone:
A 20 y.o. and a 70 y.o white American are selected at random from the general population of the nation. For each, their level of racism is measured in a manner you have pre-approved as being fair and valid. You are required to bet a house-note on which one is less racist. Question: Who are you going to bet on?
I’ll go first. The young person (is less racist)
Anyone else?
Ah yes–presbyopia. Like gray hair, it happens to everyone eventually.
Damn, sorry about your luck. You pulled Bernie Sanders and Jake Paul… You’re a Dr. you’ll be okay with a second note, right?
Damn. I was hoping I’d pull Trump. He woulda made it rain for me.
Of course it makes sense. It makes 100% sense to judge people on the same metric if your goal is objectivity. What SHOULDN’T be done (imo) is these results given a blanket assessment without comparing what goes into them.
What that means (to me) is that we adjust our expectations based on the oh so important factor of context. Context in the sense that if you were a child (formative years) in the time period where it was socially acceptable, I don’t hold negative viewpoints against you nearly as much as someone whom is 25 and never lived through a time where being racist (by today’s standards) was socially acceptable.
So in a practical sense, when my grandpa calls a waiter a monkey in public, most people shrug it off because he’s an old guy who grew up in a time where that wasn’t frowned upon. When my cousin calls the same waiter a monkey, I expect him to know better, as he’s never experienced society accepting/reinforcing his racism.
I wouldn’t expect you to, since that’s not something anyone here said.
Oooo, I think you have to throw location in to the mix. A place like New Orleans? I am not betting on the young person or the old person. The roving black gangs in the wake of Hurricane Katrina, and Mayor Nagan of the “chocolate” city of New Orleans, who is still serving a prison sentence for skimming Katrina relief money did a lot to that city to set race relations back a good bit. The cops are racist as shit there too. Race relations went backwards for both black and white. Its a corrupt city.
I just…
That is literally the premise of the gotcha “thought experiment” above.
There is nothing objective about judging the attitudes and actions of the past based on a modern understanding of “racism”. Racism in and of itself is subjective. I mean, the freakin questions in the survey that brought this all on are based on how respondents feel about blacks V. whites and not based on fact.
About as much sense as comparing the IQ of a pigmy to that of a Harvard graduate…
Nope. Just age. Where’s your money going–the old person or the young?
Why is it a “gotcha” experiment, as opposed to being simply an effective way to reflect on one’s attitudes?
Out of curiosity, do you think white slave owners in the antebellum South were racists? Why or why not? (A genuine question–not another ‘gotcha’ thought experiment.)
