I can see your obviously a huge Miggy fan.
You’ll probably be disappointed though Maiden.
I still have to say though, how can you possibly support Miggy when he’s absolutely killed his team on defense?
The only way I’d overlook his defense would be a historic season at the plate and he’s not having one.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I still have to say though, how can you possibly support Miggy when he’s absolutely killed his team on defense?
The only way I’d overlook his defense would be a historic season at the plate and he’s not having one.
[/quote]
I’m not a huge Cabrera fan, I just think he was robbed of the MVP last year and is deserving of it this year. It’s definitely going to be close. His defense might not be good but he is playing a different position this year and is third in the league in WAR so he can’t be hurting his team that bad. I would think winning the triple crown for the first time since 1967 would be considered a historic season as well.
Well we do agree on one thing. I would’ve given Miggy the MVP over Verlander in 2011.
One thing I want to throw out there with respect to WAR once it comes time to look at it for the Cy Young.
WAR uses a stat called FIP (Fielding Independent Pitching) which is built off ERA. Unfortunately for RA Dickey the stat doesn’t really work for Knuckleballers so even though RA Dickey isn’t leading in WAR it could be argued he has been the pitcher in the NL.
The wildcard race for the 2nd spot in the National League is getting pretty interesting. The Brewers and the Phillies snuck up out of nowhere.
Everybody was also crowning the Dodgers NL west champs after their big trade and Melky going out for the Giants. All that has happened since then is the Giants have widened their lead.
Looks like the Angels are out of the playoffs.
Baseball is so cruel.
Oh well, my Rangers are favourites.
Let’s go Texas!
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I’m a big fan of WAR for deciding MVP so for me it really isn’t close.
Mike Trout 8.7 WAR
Robinson Cano 6.1 WAR
Miguel Cabrera 6.1 WAR
Josh Hamilton 4.8 WAR
Josh Hamilton had a couple of bad months IIRC.
Even if Miggy’s WAR was slightly better than Mike Trout I’d have a hard time giving it to him just because of how much he’s hurt his team defensively.
[/quote]
Hamilton had a few bad months, but it’s going to be hard to overlook near 50 hrs for a team with the best record. I also think the writers will overlook defense for a guy that will probably end the season in the top three of the triple crown categories. I’ll throw one more name in there, Adrian Beltre. If it wasn’t for Hamilton being on the same team he would get some serious consideration.
I think the NL MVP may be a little more interesting though with the numbers Ryan Braun has put up, .310/38/100 so far, and the Brewers making a little run at the Wild Card. I really hope the writers don’t hold his test results from last year against him. A lot of other contenders too: Mcutchen, Holliday, Molina?, and Buster Posey. Did I miss anyone? [/quote]
McCutchen doesn’t have a chance to win anything now. The Pirates have gone from 16 over .500 to 1 under in 2 months. I will now resume my normal life of not following baseball anymore.
Yeah the Priates drop in the standing isn’t going to help mcutchen. I think at this point the MVP will go to Buster Posey. It should go to Ryan Braun, but I don’t think they will give it to him for the PED issue. Gotta give the guy credit for putting up career bests after the scandal though, I thought his numbers would drop off for sure.
[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
Looks like the Angels are out of the playoffs.
Baseball is so cruel.
Oh well, my Rangers are favourites.
Let’s go Texas![/quote]
Hell yeah. I thought for sure the Angels would atleast get one of the wild cards. They were looking pretty good after the all-star break when they took the first 2 out of 4 in the Rangers home park and then took a huge lead in the third game before the Rangers came back and won. with Darvish pitching great right now heading into the playoffs, the Rangers rotation of Harrison, Darvish, Dempster, and Holland doesn’t look too bad. Hopefully Dempster can start pitching well, but I just don’t see him shutting any teams down in the playoffs. The other three can on a good day.
EDIT: Couldn’t be happier at this point that the Rangers didn’t re-sign Wilson. He was so frustrating to watch last postseason, especially when he came in releif in game 7 of the WS and promptly hit a guy and walked the next guy. Sometimes he just all of a sudden loses the strike zone. He’s been absolutely horrible for the Angels down the stretch.
I don’t know about the Rangers. Their starting pitching doesn’t impress me at all. They might turn into the Buffalo Bills of baseball.
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
Yeah the Priates drop in the standing isn’t going to help mcutchen. I think at this point the MVP will go to Buster Posey. It should go to Ryan Braun, but I don’t think they will give it to him for the PED issue. Gotta give the guy credit for putting up career bests after the scandal though, I thought his numbers would drop off for sure. [/quote]
Or maybe he just got better at cheating and getting away with it.
People seem to forget that hitting is only half of what is expected of a player. While Braun is the superior hitter compared to Posey, Posey is the superior defender. He’s better at his position than Braun is at his and the catcher position is easily the hardest to play from a defensive standpoint.
The fact that Posey is an excellent defensive catcher whose biggest strength is handling the pitching staff should not be overlooked. To me, all bias aside, he’s the clearcut MVP in the NL. The guy has been hitting .395 since the All Star break and has essentially carried the Giants to the division title. Out of the three players in the discussion (Braun, Posey and McCutchen) Posey is definitely the player who has had the largest impact on his team’s success.
McCutchen is the best player on a team that shit all over themselves for the entire second half of the season. Braun is the best player on a team that isn’t relevant at all and only enters the periphery of the postseason discussion because of the second Wild Card. The Brewers are not a good team. Posey is the best player on one of the top teams in baseball and has carried his team to that position.
It’s stupid to factor in the team’s performance in MVP. A player has almost no control over how his teammates perform, this isn’t basketball.
MY MVPs:
AL: Mike Trout
NL: McCutchen
[quote]therajraj wrote:
It’s stupid to factor in the team’s performance in MVP. A player has almost no control over how his teammates perform, this isn’t basketball.
MY MVPs:
AL: Mike Trout
NL: McCutchen
[/quote]
Obviously you’ve never played sports then. Teammates can certainly affect how the team as a whole plays. It’s not shit that you see on the field necessarily but in the clubhouse and that sort of thing.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
It’s stupid to factor in the team’s performance in MVP. A player has almost no control over how his teammates perform, this isn’t basketball.
MY MVPs:
AL: Mike Trout
NL: McCutchen
[/quote]
So you think mccutchen has had a more productive year than braun? Braun 10 more hrs, more rbi comparable BA, and will go 30/30. I think he plays pretty good d too.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
It’s stupid to factor in the team’s performance in MVP. A player has almost no control over how his teammates perform, this isn’t basketball.
MY MVPs:
AL: Mike Trout
NL: McCutchen
[/quote]
Obviously you’ve never played sports then. Teammates can certainly affect how the team as a whole plays. It’s not shit that you see on the field necessarily but in the clubhouse and that sort of thing. [/quote]
So you think the extremely poor pitching performance by the Pirates staff in August and September should play a role in evaluating McCutchen’s MVP candidacy?
They posted a 4.39 ERA in August and a 4.99 ERA in September thus far.
For anyone else who agrees team performance should play a role in MVP consideration, please answer this question as well.
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
It’s stupid to factor in the team’s performance in MVP. A player has almost no control over how his teammates perform, this isn’t basketball.
MY MVPs:
AL: Mike Trout
NL: McCutchen
[/quote]
So you think mccutchen has had a more productive year than braun? Braun 10 more hrs, more rbi comparable BA, and will go 30/30. I think he plays pretty good d too.
[/quote]
No Braun would also be a fine choice. I just give McCutch the nod since he plays CF compared to Braun’s LF
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
It’s stupid to factor in the team’s performance in MVP. A player has almost no control over how his teammates perform, this isn’t basketball.
MY MVPs:
AL: Mike Trout
NL: McCutchen
[/quote]
Obviously you’ve never played sports then. Teammates can certainly affect how the team as a whole plays. It’s not shit that you see on the field necessarily but in the clubhouse and that sort of thing. [/quote]
So you think the extremely poor pitching performance by the Pirates staff in August and September should play a role in evaluating McCutchen’s MVP candidacy?
They posted a 4.39 ERA in August and a 4.99 ERA in September thus far.
For anyone else who agrees team performance should play a role in MVP consideration, please answer this question as well.
[/quote]
No, but I think there is a direct link between the improved play of Posey and the corresponding improved play of the Giants’ offense as a whole during that same stretch.
Don’t forget that the name of the award is Most VALUABLE Player. Well, how much value can a guy really have if he’s playing out of his ass and the rest of the team is going into the shitter? Obviously you can’t simply blame the Pirates’ poor performance on McCutchen’s inability to carry the team. First of all, he’s capable of carrying a team, but more importantly, he’s just one guy. But some players simply have the “it” factor and Posey has had it the entire second half.
Team performance should definitely play a role, but it shouldn’t be the final arbiter. But it should definitely be a factor. There is simply no getting around the fact that while McCutchen has played pretty well the last two months, Posey has been much, much better over the same time frame. And while McCutchen’s play has definitely leveled out a bit over the last two months, his team has taken a serious nosedive. Posey’s play has been absolutely outstanding since the All-Star break and so has his team’s play. There is definitely a correlation there regarding both players.
And again, you aren’t taking into consideration defense. McCutchen is a better Cf than Posey is a catcher but Posey is a damn fine catcher and the position is simply light years harder to play than CF. Cf isn’t easy by any means, but it’s not like catching. There is SERIOUS value in a player who can provide above average defense as a catcher, handle the pitching staff as well as any catcher in baseball and also provide excellent offense.
Your argument, of course, is ignorant and borne of the fact that you have forced yourself to argue this way since your favorite player (Bautista) will never play on a contending Blue Jays team so you have to try and pump him and his play up by devaluing the success of the team he plays for in regards to his MVP chances from year to year. It’s a dishonest, fallacious argument that you would NOT be making if Bautista had been playing on a contender the last two years.
And also, while September shouldn’t be the only month that counts, it is extremely relevant to point out that while the Pirates have been taking a huge fucking shit all over themselves for the last month, McCutchen has been batting about .285, whereas while the Giants have put a huge gap between themselves and the proverbial favorites to win the division six weeks ago, Posey has been batting literally 100 points higher than McCutchen with a FAR superior slugging percentage and OPS.
So no matter how you look at it, while McCutchen certainly isn’t the one solely responsible for the Pirates’ collapse, his decrease in production that has coincided with the team’s collapse certainly is correlative, as is Posey’s increase in performance at the same time as his team’s increase in performance.
That is the definition of a valuable player as far as I’m concerned.