Check out Cain’s velocity chart
Now check out Morrow… Morrow’s fastball touched 97 while Cain’s touched 94.5.
Morrow was consistently at 94 while cain was consistently at 92. This is just ONE way to look this question.
Now can I say Morrow pitched better than Cain based on this ONE sabermetric statistic since you did the same with Game score?
looking the chart again 97 was a little generous. Let’s say Morrow’s fastball touched 96.5
[quote]therajraj wrote:
looking the chart again 97 was a little generous. Let’s say Morrow’s fastball touched 96.5[/quote]
Fastball velocity isn’t an indicator of anything other than fastball velocity. Just because a guy throws hard doesn’t mean he’s pitching well. I guess you never saw Greg Maddux pitch in his younger days with the Cubs and I suppose you’ve never heard of Brett Tomko. Maddux’s velocity chart would have been somewhere between Cain’s and Morrow’s but in his heyday it was well below Cain’s. Tomko threw in the mid-90’s about as consistently as he got shelled, which was pretty much every start.
You don’t know anything about pitching do you? If anything, the fact that Morrow had his excellent start with a mid-90’s fastball makes it that much LESS impressive, not more. Cain was more successful with a fastball averaging about 91.5mph than Morrow could do with one that was up around 95. Morrow has the better fastball, Cain is the better pitcher and had the better start, period. That’s why he’ll probably start the All-Star Game and Morrow will be lucky to come into the game in relief around the 6th inning.
Besides, when all else is said and done, the perfect game is still more rare than the 17+ strikeout game. I can’t find stats on how many pitchers have struck out 17 or more in a game, but I do know that there’s been about 25 games with 18 or more strikeouts and there’s only been 22 perfectos.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Fastball velocity isn’t an indicator of anything other than fastball velocity. Just because a guy throws hard doesn’t mean he’s pitching well. I guess you never saw Greg Maddux pitch in his younger days with the Cubs and I suppose you’ve never heard of Brett Tomko. Maddux’s velocity chart would have been somewhere between Cain’s and Morrow’s but in his heyday it was well below Cain’s. Tomko threw in the mid-90’s about as consistently as he got shelled, which was pretty much every start.
You don’t know anything about pitching do you? If anything, the fact that Morrow had his excellent start with a mid-90’s fastball makes it that much LESS impressive, not more. Cain was more successful with a fastball averaging about 91.5mph than Morrow could do with one that was up around 95. Morrow has the better fastball, Cain is the better pitcher and had the better start, period. [/quote]
So what you’re saying is that Brandon Morrow should be penalized for having better stuff than Cain at least velocity wise?
Okay, then if Cain pitched a better game, you’ll concede that Morrow was much more dominant? Are you at least going to back down from saying their starts aren’t comparable?
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
That’s why he’ll probably start the All-Star Game and Morrow will be lucky to come into the game in relief around the 6th inning.[/quote]
Please stop with the strawman.
I’m not arguing Morrow is a better pitcher than Cain, in fact I’d take Cain over Morrow any day of the week.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Besides, when all else is said and done, the perfect game is still more rare than the 17+ strikeout game. I can’t find stats on how many pitchers have struck out 17 or more in a game, but I do know that there’s been about 25 games with 18 or more strikeouts and there’s only been 22 perfectos.[/quote]
Didn’t we already establish that a perfect game requires luck? I mean Cain required a Willie Mays calibre catch from Blanco to get his perfect game. There were no amazing game saving plays made during Morrow’s start, if Aaron Hill had finished the play or Blanco hadn’t finished his, we’d be having a completely different conversation.
If you’re arguing that Cain got luckier in his start, okay.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Fastball velocity isn’t an indicator of anything other than fastball velocity. Just because a guy throws hard doesn’t mean he’s pitching well. I guess you never saw Greg Maddux pitch in his younger days with the Cubs and I suppose you’ve never heard of Brett Tomko. Maddux’s velocity chart would have been somewhere between Cain’s and Morrow’s but in his heyday it was well below Cain’s. Tomko threw in the mid-90’s about as consistently as he got shelled, which was pretty much every start.
You don’t know anything about pitching do you? If anything, the fact that Morrow had his excellent start with a mid-90’s fastball makes it that much LESS impressive, not more. Cain was more successful with a fastball averaging about 91.5mph than Morrow could do with one that was up around 95. Morrow has the better fastball, Cain is the better pitcher and had the better start, period. [/quote]
So what you’re saying is that Brandon Morrow should be penalized for having better stuff than Cain at least velocity wise?
Okay, then if Cain pitched a better game, you’ll concede that Morrow was much more dominant? Are you at least going to back down from saying their starts aren’t comparable?
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
That’s why he’ll probably start the All-Star Game and Morrow will be lucky to come into the game in relief around the 6th inning.[/quote]
Please stop with the strawman.
I’m not arguing Morrow is a better pitcher than Cain, in fact I’d take Cain over Morrow any day of the week.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Besides, when all else is said and done, the perfect game is still more rare than the 17+ strikeout game. I can’t find stats on how many pitchers have struck out 17 or more in a game, but I do know that there’s been about 25 games with 18 or more strikeouts and there’s only been 22 perfectos.[/quote]
Didn’t we already establish that a perfect game requires luck? I mean Cain required a Willie Mays calibre catch from Blanco to get his perfect game. There were no amazing game saving plays made during Morrow’s start, if Aaron Hill had finished the play or Blanco hadn’t finished his, we’d be having a completely different conversation.
If you’re arguing that Cain got luckier in his start, okay.
[/quote]
There was luck involved in both of those starts. Morrow got about a dozen called strikes in the last couple innings that were generous to say the least. And if you want to talk about defense, Cain threw a perfect game with the major league’s worst defense playing behind him. Maybe it was Cain who got luckier, but I’ve pontificated about luck in sports on here before and all I’ll say about that is that there is no such thing as luck over the course of a career or a game. Good teams and good players create their own luck and that’s why good teams always seem to catch the breaks. They put themselves in position to succeed more often and by extension, to benefit from “luck” as well.
So when a guy like Matt Cain, who has carried 5 no-hitters into the 7th inning previously and two into the 8th inning, finally perseveres I don’t consider it luck at all. But when a guy like Morrow, who had been an inconsistent pitcher at best (and just plain awful a lot of the time) suddenly pulls a gem like that out of his ass, I tend to think it’s more luck than anything. He hadn’t come close to anything like that ever in his career, but Cain has been close before.
Now, I understand that Morrow is finally starting to perform up to his capabilities and all that. But there was luck involved in his game as well.
[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:
All I will say is that tony gawddamn romo threw out the first pitch. The baseball gods punished the Rangers, hard, for that one.[/quote]
This is what I imagine the pitch to look like:
Just curious: how many of you own jerseys and How often do you wear’em? Did you get a name on that back? If so, whose name?
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Just curious: how many of you own jerseys and How often do you wear’em? Did you get a name on that back? If so, whose name?[/quote]
I used to have a Barry Bonds jersey but I threw it away. Now I just have an orange jersey with no one’s name on it. I wear it about twice a year other than when I’m at a game.
So it doesn’t seem like the Yankees have lost much out of the closer role with the way Soriano is pitching. 13 saves 1.78 ERA in 25 innings. He is getting paid a lot of money. He is one year removed from saving 45 games with a 1.73 ERA. If he continues this and has a great year, what would you do if/when Rivera comes back next year? Who closes?
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
I used to have a Barry Bonds jersey but I threw it away. [/quote]
Damn, you must’ve taken his cheating rather personally. Maybe it’s because I’m especially frugal, but my inclination would’ve been to have the stitching on the back removed.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Now I just have an orange jersey with no one’s name on it. I wear it about twice a year other than when I’m at a game.[/quote]
Yeah I have an authentic Jays jersey given to me for my birthday in 2005. Only wear 3-5x a year to games.
My major pet peeve: Idiots who put their own name on their jersey.
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
So it doesn’t seem like the Yankees have lost much out of the closer role with the way Soriano is pitching. 13 saves 1.78 ERA in 25 innings. He is getting paid a lot of money. He is one year removed from saving 45 games with a 1.73 ERA. If he continues this and has a great year, what would you do if/when Rivera comes back next year? Who closes?[/quote]
I wouldn’t do a thing other than give MO the 9th. The Yankees have a sweet bullpen and I wouldn’t fuck with it.
Robertson the 7th
Soriano the 8th
Mo the 9th
Lets the starters off the hook to a degree as they only need to give you 6 solid innings on any given night.
My man Aroldis Chapman is free-falling. Velocity is dropping and he can’t locate any pitch for his life, let alone his slider, which he’ll need to find to be effective long term. He did something similar last year, though. Started really strong but hit a giant rough patch in the middle of the season.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
I used to have a Barry Bonds jersey but I threw it away. [/quote]
Damn, you must’ve taken his cheating rather personally. Maybe it’s because I’m especially frugal, but my inclination would’ve been to have the stitching on the back removed.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Now I just have an orange jersey with no one’s name on it. I wear it about twice a year other than when I’m at a game.[/quote]
Yeah I have an authentic Jays jersey given to me for my birthday in 2005. Only wear 3-5x a year to games.
My major pet peeve: Idiots who put their own name on their jersey.
[/quote]
Everyone knows that the number 25 on a Giants uniform is synonymous with Bonds. If I removed the name people would just come up to me and ask why my Bonds jersey doesn’t have his last name on it. I told people for a while that it was a BOBBY Bonds jersey since he used to wear #25 for the Giants as well, but it was one of the newer black jerseys that they used to wear and Bobby Bonds never played in them so no one was buying that one.
I noticed that Joe Maddon caused a bit of a stir yesterday with his criticism of Davey Johnson’s request to have Rays pitcher Joel Peralta checked for a foreign substance. Of course, Peralta DID have pine tar in his glove and was summarily ejected, and naturally Maddon decided to have the Nationals’ pitcher checked the next inning, to no avail.
I like Maddon’s point, though. His argument was that Johnson was literally a coward for having the gall to have Peralta checked. Maddon claims that most pitchers use varying amounts of pine tar on their gloves and that Johnson’s own pitchers would probably be pissed off about this whole episode because now it brings them under further scrutiny as well. Basically, Maddon called Johnson’s maneuver a “cowardly” breaking of an unwritten rule in baseball.
I like it. Maddon’s right. It WAS chickenshit. There’s all sorts of pitchers who put pine tar on their gloves. Shit, when I pitched I used it all the time and that was just in college where you can get away with a lot of stuff. I’d rub soap on my right pant leg and then go to it in the game for a little extra something. I had the catcher file down a small part of his shinguard that he could use to surreptitiously nick the ball before he threw it back to me. Everyone does little shit like that to get an edge. Calling out Peralta makes him look like the only cheater since he’s the only one who’s been caught for doctoring the ball in a while. But that isn’t because he really IS the only doctoring it, it’s because Johnson was the first prick in a while to call someone out for it.
I remember Mike Scott used to do shit like that when he pitched back in the day. I can remember listening to Hank Greenwald flip out on the radio once that Scott had managed to slip a piece of sandpaper down his shirt when the umps weren’t looking. That shit is a little different. I think the unwritten line is drawn at bringing foreign objects like sandpaper out there. Plus, pine tar really just helps the pitcher with grip more than anything. It doesn’t really give the ball a lot of unpredictable movement as much as it enhances the natural movement due to better grip and therefore, better, tighter spin.
[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:
My man Aroldis Chapman is free-falling. Velocity is dropping and he can’t locate any pitch for his life, let alone his slider, which he’ll need to find to be effective long term. He did something similar last year, though. Started really strong but hit a giant rough patch in the middle of the season.[/quote]
That guy is killing my fantasy team right now. Is his velocity really dropping? I saw him blow a save about a week ago and he was 99-100 with every fastball. What’s going on with him? Should I trade him? I’m already in a fucking free-fall in the standings over the last two weeks even with Matt Cain being on my team. I need to shake things up and I need another starting pitcher. Will he ever start for them this year? He hasn’t really thrown a lot of innings yet for a reliever. I hope this is just a bump in the road for him.
How do you decide what forms of cheating are acceptable and which aren’t? Steroid use and doctoring the ball are both technically cheating. Is taking steroids worse because of the level of effectiveness?
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
I noticed that Joe Maddon caused a bit of a stir yesterday with his criticism of Davey Johnson’s request to have Rays pitcher Joel Peralta checked for a foreign substance. Of course, Peralta DID have pine tar in his glove and was summarily ejected, and naturally Maddon decided to have the Nationals’ pitcher checked the next inning, to no avail.
I like Maddon’s point, though. His argument was that Johnson was literally a coward for having the gall to have Peralta checked. Maddon claims that most pitchers use varying amounts of pine tar on their gloves and that Johnson’s own pitchers would probably be pissed off about this whole episode because now it brings them under further scrutiny as well. Basically, Maddon called Johnson’s maneuver a “cowardly” breaking of an unwritten rule in baseball.
I like it. Maddon’s right. It WAS chickenshit. There’s all sorts of pitchers who put pine tar on their gloves. Shit, when I pitched I used it all the time and that was just in college where you can get away with a lot of stuff. I’d rub soap on my right pant leg and then go to it in the game for a little extra something. I had the catcher file down a small part of his shinguard that he could use to surreptitiously nick the ball before he threw it back to me. Everyone does little shit like that to get an edge. Calling out Peralta makes him look like the only cheater since he’s the only one who’s been caught for doctoring the ball in a while. But that isn’t because he really IS the only doctoring it, it’s because Johnson was the first prick in a while to call someone out for it.
I remember Mike Scott used to do shit like that when he pitched back in the day. I can remember listening to Hank Greenwald flip out on the radio once that Scott had managed to slip a piece of sandpaper down his shirt when the umps weren’t looking. That shit is a little different. I think the unwritten line is drawn at bringing foreign objects like sandpaper out there. Plus, pine tar really just helps the pitcher with grip more than anything. It doesn’t really give the ball a lot of unpredictable movement as much as it enhances the natural movement due to better grip and therefore, better, tighter spin.[/quote]
If i’m a manager and a pitcher is shutting my team down, I would do the same thing as Johnson if the opportunity presented itself. Anything to win or get an edge, it works both ways. You may not succeed in getting him thrown out ut you can disrupt the flow of the game and possibly get in his head a little bit. Most people knows Peralta isn’t the ONLY cheater doctoring baseballs, no one really cares about this type of cheating in baseball.
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
I noticed that Joe Maddon caused a bit of a stir yesterday with his criticism of Davey Johnson’s request to have Rays pitcher Joel Peralta checked for a foreign substance. Of course, Peralta DID have pine tar in his glove and was summarily ejected, and naturally Maddon decided to have the Nationals’ pitcher checked the next inning, to no avail.
I like Maddon’s point, though. His argument was that Johnson was literally a coward for having the gall to have Peralta checked. Maddon claims that most pitchers use varying amounts of pine tar on their gloves and that Johnson’s own pitchers would probably be pissed off about this whole episode because now it brings them under further scrutiny as well. Basically, Maddon called Johnson’s maneuver a “cowardly” breaking of an unwritten rule in baseball.
I like it. Maddon’s right. It WAS chickenshit. There’s all sorts of pitchers who put pine tar on their gloves. Shit, when I pitched I used it all the time and that was just in college where you can get away with a lot of stuff. I’d rub soap on my right pant leg and then go to it in the game for a little extra something. I had the catcher file down a small part of his shinguard that he could use to surreptitiously nick the ball before he threw it back to me. Everyone does little shit like that to get an edge. Calling out Peralta makes him look like the only cheater since he’s the only one who’s been caught for doctoring the ball in a while. But that isn’t because he really IS the only doctoring it, it’s because Johnson was the first prick in a while to call someone out for it.
I remember Mike Scott used to do shit like that when he pitched back in the day. I can remember listening to Hank Greenwald flip out on the radio once that Scott had managed to slip a piece of sandpaper down his shirt when the umps weren’t looking. That shit is a little different. I think the unwritten line is drawn at bringing foreign objects like sandpaper out there. Plus, pine tar really just helps the pitcher with grip more than anything. It doesn’t really give the ball a lot of unpredictable movement as much as it enhances the natural movement due to better grip and therefore, better, tighter spin.[/quote]
If i’m a manager and a pitcher is shutting my team down, I would do the same thing as Johnson if the opportunity presented itself. Anything to win or get an edge, it works both ways. You may not succeed in getting him thrown out ut you can disrupt the flow of the game and possibly get in his head a little bit. Most people knows Peralta isn’t the ONLY cheater doctoring baseballs, no one really cares about this type of cheating in baseball.
[/quote]
He hadn’t even thrown a PITCH yet and Johnson was out there calling to have him checked. It was a bush-league move, plain and simple.
And believe me, no one understands the “win at all costs” mindset better than I do. But that doesn’t negate the fact that there ARE costs to winning and apparently Johnson is willing to spend his integrity to buy one. Apparently, so are you. But most people would not call someone out for cheating when they or their teammates are doing the same thing, lest they be called a hypocrite.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
How do you decide what forms of cheating are acceptable and which aren’t? Steroid use and doctoring the ball are both technically cheating. Is taking steroids worse because of the level of effectiveness?[/quote]
There is no way to decide what form of cheating is worse, but a good starting point if you want to separate different forms into different categories is to put all forms of cheating that used to be legal in one category and all forms that have never been legal in another.
Doctoring the ball used to be legal and when it was outlawed a couple pitchers were grandfathered in and allowed to continue doctoring it since they had built careers on it at that point. Steroids have never been allowed in baseball at any point. There’s probably no realistic way to decide which is worse but I think that we can look back and clearly see a definable “steroid era”, whereas we cannot do the same with doctored pitches. So based on that criteria I would say that steroids are way worse since they had such a larger impact on the game and its history.