MLB 2012: The Postseason Edition

Off Topic
161

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
By the way, the knuckelball in the clip is slightly spinning, yet it has no bearing on whether the ball will go in, out, or down. You can clearly see that the pitch goes in, out, then down and in. How that fuck someone barrels that ball up without a lot of luck is beyond me. [/quote]

No doubt.

What I’m trying to say is that part of the reason a knuckler is so hard to hit is because a big leaguer cannot use his usual technique of picking up ball spin in order to track the ball from the pitcher to the plate.

If you normally use ball spin to pick up 99.9% of balls pitched to you, how fucked would you be for the 0.001% when you can’t do that?

[/quote]

That’s here I disagree! I think hitters pick up on the speed of the pitch and the angle it comes out of the pitchers hand, not the spin. That’s why a 90mph slider is harder to hit than a 80 mph slider. Harder to pick up the speed difference and it moves later.

162

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
By the way, the knuckelball in the clip is slightly spinning, yet it has no bearing on whether the ball will go in, out, or down. You can clearly see that the pitch goes in, out, then down and in. How that fuck someone barrels that ball up without a lot of luck is beyond me. [/quote]

No doubt.

What I’m trying to say is that part of the reason a knuckler is so hard to hit is because a big leaguer cannot use his usual technique of picking up ball spin in order to track the ball from the pitcher to the plate.

If you normally use ball spin to pick up 99.9% of balls pitched to you, how fucked would you be for the 0.001% when you can’t do that?

[/quote]

They don’t actually pick the spin up as much as you think. Yes, it’s huge part of the equation, but what is arguably just as important a factor in pitch recognition is the way the ball is released from the hand and the arm action.

With a curveball, the fingers are not behind and on top of the ball the way they are with a fastball. The hand is alongside the ball and the fingers pass over the top of the ball and in front of it more to create the top spin necessary to curve it. This is the same with a slider, but to a much lesser extent, which makes that pitch tougher to recognize out of the hand. The spin on a slider is easier to pick up than a curveball in many cases because the revolution of the ball creates what looks like a red dot on the ball, from the stitching. But the velocity is closer to fastball velocity, which makes it easier to adjust to.

With the changeup there are three or four fingers on the ball instead of two and the ball is placed further into the palm of the hand rather than held lightly by the fingertips like with a fastball. So when the pitch is released hitters can sometimes see the fingertips off of the ball prior to the release point. With the circle change grip, the thumb and index finger are on the side of the ball, which can also make it a little easier to recognize.

Also, where the pitch is released from makes a difference as well. Successful pitchers have the exact same arm speed and release point for every pitch, but not all pitchers are successful. Sometimes a hitter can pick up even the slightest change in where the ball is released from and that tips him off as to what pitch is coming. That’s partially what makes a pitcher like Halladay, who has a great sinker AND cutter, so effective. The release point is always the same because the only difference on those two fastballs is where the fingers are placed and both pitches are released the exact same way. It’s really just a matter of placing a seam on the index finger or the middle finger with the sinker and the cutter, and the spin isn’t that much different. With the four-seam fastball, because of the way that pitch is gripped, the hitter doesn’t really see seams that much, just white. With the sinker and the cutter the seams are more visible for whatever reason. You’d have to see both thrown at you to really understand what I’m getting at.

163

So you guys see the Swisher signing in Cleveland?

Due to the change in draft pick compensation framework in the last CBA, average to above average non-allstar type players are now caught in the middle. Giving up draft picks has created a significant disincentive in signing players like Swisher, Bourn and Lohse.

Boston and Texas reportedly did not make a run at Swisher because they didn’t want to give up a 1st round draft pick, especially to the Yankees. The Yankees offered him arbitration but didn’t resign him so they would be setup to get the pick. Who did they replace him with? Ichiro fucking Suzuki, a player who is basically nothing more than a bench guy at this point in his career. Kinda crazy to see the Yankees not resign a player so they can help their farm system huh?

Is it any surprise that non-superstar players like Edwin Jackson and Anibal Sanchez signed well ahead of Bourn and Lohse? Signing them did not require draft compensation. If you’re wondering why, players who are traded after opening day cannot be tied to draft pick compensation (Anibal Sanchez). Also if a team doesn’t make a qualifying offer, they do not require draft pick compensation either (Edwin Jackson)

164

Really? This guy didnt get in???

http://atmlb.com/ZI2cxM

165

Pretty happy none of the roiders got in. Bonds and Clemmons will get in at some point, but fuck sosa.

166

I would have voted for
-Biggio
-Piazza (9 straight seasons of over 20hr and 300avg, as a catcher. 8 of those 30+hr.)
-McGriff (compare his numbers to HOFer Billy Williams)
-Bagwell
-Bonds
-Clemens

Borderline:
-Curt Schilling
-Palmeiro
-Sosa

Bonds and Clemens acomplishments are so far off the charts that I think they deserve to be in regardless of whether they used. If you compare them to other PED users thay blow them out of the water aswell. PEDs or not, Clemens and especially Bonds showed greatness on the field weve never seen before.

No way they were going to get in first ballot, but at some point they will get in. At some point SOMEONE will get in that has used PEDs. Whether we find out before or after the fact.

All things said, I’m okay with writers not voting for guys that have used PEDs, whether admitted, tested positive for, or like clemens the evidence is just too strong to deny it. I’m not okay with writers not voting for guys because they they used PEDs based solely on their own logic and that alone.

167

This whole thing is a bunch of absolute horse shit.

There are tons of guys in the Hall of Fame who cheated and were known cheaters of some sort when it was time to vote for them. I mean, if cheating is so bad, then WHAT THE FUCK IS GAYLORD PERRY DOING IN THE HALL OF FAME? The guy wrote a motherfucking BOOK about his cheating.

What about all the admitted greenie users? Look, I’m not stupid enough to argue that using some amphetamines before a game represents the same advantage or potential increase in performance that steroids do, but cheating is cheating and both were against the rules at the time and both were illegal at the time. It isn’t the job of the Baseball Writers Association to decide what form of cheating was harmless and what form wasn’t.

And you know what? Let’s assume that prior to the advent of greenies in the majors there was NO use of illegal “performance enhancing” drugs in baseball. Let’s assume that every single player was clean back in the first half of the 20th century. Even if people DO want to argue that greenies weren’t that effective compared to steroids, they certainly WERE effective in comparison to this theoretically-clean prior generation of players.

And let’s not forget that steroids have been around for a lot longer than when McGwire and Canseco started taking them in the late 80’s, which is basically the accepted beginning of the steroid era in baseball. East German and Russian athletes were taking them 20 or 30 years before that, they were prevalent in bodybuilding 20 or 30 years prior to Canseco and people would be seriously ignorant to just blindly assume that NO ONE in baseball was using them in the 60s thru the late 80s.

168

As I said before: let your memories on the field dictate your opinion of these players not what a bunch of voters think.

There are a bunch of fucked up rules like if you followed baseball while holding a vote for 10 years you have one for life.

There is a former Montreal expos beat writer that has a vote for life. He’s been a cartoonist since they moved to Washington. If you need another example of HoF idiocy, a few of the writers voted Edison Volquez as ROY last year when he wasn’t even a rookie.

169

[quote]therajraj wrote:
As I said before: let your memories on the field dictate your opinion of these players not what a bunch of voters think.

There are a bunch of fucked up rules like if you followed baseball while holding a vote for 10 years you have one for life.

There is a former Montreal expos beat writer that has a vote for life. He’s been a cartoonist since they moved to Washington. If you need another example of HoF idiocy, a few of the writers voted Edison Volquez as ROY last year when he wasn’t even a rookie.[/quote]

Fuck, Aaron Sele got a vote yesterday.

Any Hall of Fame that has as one of its voting requirements/criteria any mention of being an upstanding citizen and a good representative of the game and then enshrines Kennesaw Landis and Ty Cobb is totally irrelevant if you ask me.

I don’t even give a fuck if Bonds gets in or not. The guy was a complete piece of shit and after all the shit about his habitual beating of his wives and mistress came out during his trial I would have had no problem citing the above criteria to keep him out. But a Hall of Fame that keeps users of PEDs out of it but has an entire generation of players who used greenies (unarguably a PED) in it AND purports to keep cheaters out of it but put Gaylord Perry in it is totally irrelevant.

170

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
As I said before: let your memories on the field dictate your opinion of these players not what a bunch of voters think.

There are a bunch of fucked up rules like if you followed baseball while holding a vote for 10 years you have one for life.

There is a former Montreal expos beat writer that has a vote for life. He’s been a cartoonist since they moved to Washington. If you need another example of HoF idiocy, a few of the writers voted Edison Volquez as ROY last year when he wasn’t even a rookie.[/quote]

Fuck, Aaron Sele got a vote yesterday.

Any Hall of Fame that has as one of its voting requirements/criteria any mention of being an upstanding citizen and a good representative of the game and then enshrines Kennesaw Landis and Ty Cobb is totally irrelevant if you ask me.

I don’t even give a fuck if Bonds gets in or not. The guy was a complete piece of shit and after all the shit about his habitual beating of his wives and mistress came out during his trial I would have had no problem citing the above criteria to keep him out. But a Hall of Fame that keeps users of PEDs out of it but has an entire generation of players who used greenies (unarguably a PED) in it AND purports to keep cheaters out of it but put Gaylord Perry in it is totally irrelevant.[/quote]

I want Bonds in for the simple fact he’s the best hitter ever lived. It makes the Hall an even bigger sham than it already is now without him.

Those homers are in the record books. What difference does it make if you prevent him from entering the Hall?

171

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
As I said before: let your memories on the field dictate your opinion of these players not what a bunch of voters think.

There are a bunch of fucked up rules like if you followed baseball while holding a vote for 10 years you have one for life.

There is a former Montreal expos beat writer that has a vote for life. He’s been a cartoonist since they moved to Washington. If you need another example of HoF idiocy, a few of the writers voted Edison Volquez as ROY last year when he wasn’t even a rookie.[/quote]

Fuck, Aaron Sele got a vote yesterday.

Any Hall of Fame that has as one of its voting requirements/criteria any mention of being an upstanding citizen and a good representative of the game and then enshrines Kennesaw Landis and Ty Cobb is totally irrelevant if you ask me.

I don’t even give a fuck if Bonds gets in or not. The guy was a complete piece of shit and after all the shit about his habitual beating of his wives and mistress came out during his trial I would have had no problem citing the above criteria to keep him out. But a Hall of Fame that keeps users of PEDs out of it but has an entire generation of players who used greenies (unarguably a PED) in it AND purports to keep cheaters out of it but put Gaylord Perry in it is totally irrelevant.[/quote]

I want Bonds in for the simple fact he’s the best hitter ever lived. It makes the Hall an even bigger sham than it already is now without him.

Those homers are in the record books. What difference does it make if you prevent him from entering the Hall?

[/quote]

I agree with you guys to a certain extent, but I think it’s clear that steroids had a much more dramatic effect on enhancing performance than greenies. And yes Gaylord Perry cheated, but whether you like it or not, he cheated in a way baseball fans accept. Within the confines of the game. Not by taking illegal drugs.

Again I think steroid users should get in, but only the BEST of them. You can’t simply look at a PED user and say because he had 500 hrs and 3000 hits that he belongs in the hall like you could a non-PED user. It goes a bit deeper than that because those numbers are obviously inflated. But at the same time, you can’t ignore guys like Bonds, a guy who got intentionally walked with the bases loaded.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the next few years. My prediction, NONE of the roid users will get in after 15yrs on the ballot. Then after years go by and it will come to the surface that a PED user was unknowingly elected to the hall and all these guys will get elected through the veterans comittee.

172

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
As I said before: let your memories on the field dictate your opinion of these players not what a bunch of voters think.

There are a bunch of fucked up rules like if you followed baseball while holding a vote for 10 years you have one for life.

There is a former Montreal expos beat writer that has a vote for life. He’s been a cartoonist since they moved to Washington. If you need another example of HoF idiocy, a few of the writers voted Edison Volquez as ROY last year when he wasn’t even a rookie.[/quote]

Fuck, Aaron Sele got a vote yesterday.

Any Hall of Fame that has as one of its voting requirements/criteria any mention of being an upstanding citizen and a good representative of the game and then enshrines Kennesaw Landis and Ty Cobb is totally irrelevant if you ask me.

I don’t even give a fuck if Bonds gets in or not. The guy was a complete piece of shit and after all the shit about his habitual beating of his wives and mistress came out during his trial I would have had no problem citing the above criteria to keep him out. But a Hall of Fame that keeps users of PEDs out of it but has an entire generation of players who used greenies (unarguably a PED) in it AND purports to keep cheaters out of it but put Gaylord Perry in it is totally irrelevant.[/quote]

I want Bonds in for the simple fact he’s the best hitter ever lived. It makes the Hall an even bigger sham than it already is now without him.

Those homers are in the record books. What difference does it make if you prevent him from entering the Hall?

[/quote]

I don’t care if Bonds gets in or not. It means nothing to me. It’s like getting upset when my favorite movie doesn’t get nominated for an Academy Award.

I just want to see some sort of consistency in the voting process, and I’d like to see those who vote take the thing seriously rather than use their vote as some sort of fucking soapbox to stand on and pontificate about all that they feel is wrong about sports in today’s society.

If part of the criteria that can keep people out is being a complete piece of shit, then keep ALL of the pieces of shit out. If Kennesaw Landis and Ty Cobb and other hardcore, vocal racists and thugs like them can get in, then put them ALL in. Either that or keep them all out.

If cheaters are kept out for cheating, then keep them all out. That means ALL the players who used illegal, banned PEDs. If MLB says that using an illegal drug or a substance banned under their guidelines as a PED is cheating, then keep ALL the players who used those sorts of substances out. That includes Aaron and Mays. If breaking the rules to gain a competitive edge is cheating, then Gaylord Perry doesn’t belong in there either. If keeping guys out because they MIGHT have cheated simply by guilt due to association, such as Piazza (who has never been substantially linked to anything significant) then keep the players who MIGHT have used greenies out too.

The whole process is a fucking sham and the fact that NOT ONE SINGLE PLAYER HAS BEEN VOTED IN UNANIMOUSLY is proof that a lot of these assholes simply don’t deserve the privilege of voting. Fuck, Tom Seaver and Cal Ripken were great players, but they actually got a larger percentage of the vote than Babe Ruth. Babe Fucking Ruth is not a unanimous Hall of Famer and I’m supposed to care about who goes in and who doesn’t? Fuck that.

Do you realize that there is a voter who has literally NEVER TURNED IN ANYTHING OTHER THAN A COMPLETELY BLANK BALLOT???

So why should I care about who goes in or not? The whole thing is totally illegitimate. I know who the greats were and who weren’t. I’m sorry, but Phil Fucking Niekro and Sandy Koufax don’t belong in the same Hall of Fame in my opinion.

So you know what? Phil Niekro isn’t in MY Hall of Fame. And the DBCooper Baseball Hall of Fame is voted on by someone who sure as shit knows more about baseball, its history, how to play the game and all that fancy shit than practically all of the members of the BBWAA anyways, so in my mind it’s a FAR more legitimate, meaningful Hall of Fame.

173

If Jack3d is considered a PED then so are greenies.

174

Yea we’re only talking about HoF stuff because it’s January. No other real reason to bump this thread.

Dave Stieb would be in Raj’s HoF. Jack Morris who lead vote getting this time 'round would not.

175

Oh and apparently, Michael Bourn, Rafael Soriano, and Kyle Lohse haven’t gotten any contract offers.

Can we see 1 year deals coming? I’d take Bourn over Rasmus. In fact I think all 3 of our teams could upgrade CF with Bourn.

176

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Yea we’re only talking about HoF stuff because it’s January. No other real reason to bump this thread.

Dave Stieb would be in Raj’s HoF. Jack Morris who lead vote getting this time 'round would not.

[/quote]

Hey, you know what January is right?

The month before pitchers and catcher report to Spring Training!

177

Braves got Upton.

Nats and braves best 2 teams in baseball?

They’re going to rake in their divisions, everyone else sucks

178

If the dbacks extend Prado past 2013 it may not be too bad a deal for them. This assuming upton doesn’t become a star

179

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Braves got Upton.

Nats and braves best 2 teams in baseball?

They’re going to rake in their divisions, everyone else sucks[/quote]

I LIKE this trade. I was luke warn on the team going in until this trade happened. Yeah, losing Prado hurt, but you aren’t going to make a trade like that with out losing a good player. We’ve always been one bat short, I think we got it now.
I can’t wait for the first sibling fight.

180

So Dr. Bosch personally injected A-Rod with PEDs as soon as last season and his numbers still sucked. I say it’s that dame Cameron Diaz. Bad pussy can do things to you.