[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
I know these differences run hot and deep; but aren’t there more pressing battles at the moment? Just sayin’ 
Shut up Katz.[/quote]
Katz, to me this is a big deal. To raise Mary up to be the same as God is not ok. Mary is human and has sin. She needs a savior as much as all of us. Jesus is the only human who was without sin. Do I think that people can come to Jesus through the Catholic Church? Yes I do.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
I’ll say this again that the majority of atheists don’t say that they are 100% certain there is no God, only that there is no good evidence that supports a belief in one. There is a difference.
[/quote]
Then they are not atheists. Atheists are persons who deny the existence deities.[/quote]
No, atheist means without religion. Nothing more.[/quote]
I’m pretty sure I pulled that definition right out of dictionary. Like I mean copied and pasted. Plus Theist = Believes in G-d, so adding an “a” would indicated the opposite.[/quote]
A-theos
Without-God
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]StrawmanAndPlanIt wrote:
Which just serves to discredit all of you.
If it was “The truth” like you’re saying, then all the christians would agree on it.
Since your “truth” has no more firm ground than Tiribs “truth”, I see no reason to believe either.
But…but… MY bible says this… and mine is the right one…NO MY bible says THIS and MINE is the right one…[/quote]
My Church created the Bible, I win. My Bibles inerrancy comes from the fact that the Holy Ghost is with my Church, same for it’s doctrines. Happy? Stop using Straw-man and know who you are talking to.
Just because their is absolute truth, and some people might not believe it does not mean that we are all wrong.[/quote]
Didn’t realise you were Orthodox, thought you were Catholic…[/quote]
Not sure what you are getting at here.[/quote]
Someone else wrote after me in more detail. The Orthodox Church was the first church and pulled the Bible together. Catholicism split away from Orthodoxy.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
<<< A-theos
Without-God[/quote]
Which is
im-possible
without-possibility
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
No, and therein lies THE defining difference between what I believe and what they believe. I believe The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man’s salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men[/quote]
Where is that in the Bible. Where does it say in the Bible that the Bible is the only thing that can be used?[/quote]
I knew when I posted the above from the Westminster Confession of Faith that this would be the immediate answer of any even decently informed Roman Catholic. I knew it would potentially swing the door open on the very large room that Sloth quite rightly foresaw we may end up in. I also fully realized that a quotation from an extra biblical confession would be construed by catholics as a resignation to tradition myself. I most assuredly knew that any and all internally biblical evidence for the authentically Christian view of scripture would be greeted with very long standing canned church responses which you are standing at the ready with an itchy button finger fully prepared to launch.
[/quote]
My comment about where is it in Bible was only a quip, nothing more. I do not condemn Protestants for having (external from the Bible) doctrines, as I have them myself.
I have no worship for the Church, at least not in the way which heretics and sceptics like to accuse, I give Honor to the Church. Do not take my quip as me leaving diplomacy, but as it is a quip. Mostly because as I once fancied myself a Protestant, I only used the Bible and condemned all Protestants and Catholics who used anything outside of the Bible.
To which these comments are pointed at, I still hold that the Catholic Church is first and foremost the most Biblical understanding and believing Church that stands today and ever. As our understanding of the Bible is simple, and do not attempt to switch the meaning of the Bible. As well, I contend that compared to other Church’s I have gone to, that are of Protestant denomination, the Catholic Church still uses the Bible more than anyone else.
I hope you kid, as no Catholic would preach only THE Church, but Christ first, but through the Church. As represented through the relationship of Christ and his mother.
[quote]
Some on “my side” may even wince at this post thinking to themselves that I have by it made myself guilty of behaving far less diplomatically than yourself. Perhaps, but I cannot stand silent while the abominable God grieving practice of mariolatry is pushed directly into play here.[/quote]
Mariolatry? I soon hope you admit to this quip, as no Catholic in Communion with the saints, believes Mary as anything more than G-d’s Mother, herself not a god or goddess, but one to be Honored for her relationship to Jesus, after all he is one man that did pick His own mother and she in returned submitted to her Son. And, she be honored as a Judge or Queen is honored, yet a Judge or Queen being far less than Jesus’ own Mother whom was the first Christian, to kneel before Our Lord and know him. Even the Angel Gabriel greeted her unusually, “Hail Mary, Full of Grace” an Angel? Who Honors a living woman, for what reason? Because she was chosen to be the Mother of Christ.
Protestants make out too much of Catholics honoring of Mary, which is understandable as it is common that without spiritual guidance people become over zealous on certain subjects, however the Church itself does not condone the latria or adoration of Mary, which is strictly reserved for the G-dhead.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]OTS1 wrote:
Didn’t John Paul II say ex officio that a righteous non-christian could go to heaven?
[/quote]
I am not a big Pope fan by any stretch of the imagination, but if a man is Righteous even a non Christian he will go to heaven. I will say the Romans 3:10 states, "As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;” so basically no one is righteous except Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.[/quote]
And the Virgin Mary.[/quote]
I hope your answer was in jest. If not please see the below questions.
So the Virgin Mary was without sin? So Mary was born without Original Sin? Just because she was favored by God, does not mean she was without sin. This is one of the Roman Catholic Doctrines that we are going to have an issue with.
[/quote]
Yes, she was born without Original Sin. That’s fine, not sure why you have a problem with Mary being without Sin.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm[/quote]
How is it possible for Mary to be born without Original Sin? She had a Human Mother and a Human Father.[/quote]
“in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin.”
Miracle.[/quote]
Who said that and when? It is not in the Bible any where.[/quote]
Says that in the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus, by Pope Pius IX on 8th of December 1854. No it is not in the Bible. However you can use the Bible to support it.[/quote]
What makes the Pope the be all and end all to what God is saying in his word? Peter, as you say the first Pope, messed up really bad, and Paul called him to the mat. Peter repented. Just becuase the Pope says something does not make it Biblical. It must match up to the inspired word of God. If it does not then it is Heresy plain and simple. The traditions of the Catholic Church are starting to sound like the Rules of the Elders to the Pharasees. Please do not put too many rules on the people. Just as Jesus said to the Pharasees. Think about it.[/quote]
What makes Pope, the Pope? The Bible speaks of it clearly. Okay, so what does your point make about Peter and Paul and that papacy?
Popes do not have the ability to not be wrong. The can sin just like us, they can make ill advised judgments just like us. The only time a Pope is infallible is either when they are in council or when telling of doctrine in a prepared state (not an off comment about doctrine).
It does follow the inspired word of God:
[16] Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. [18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. [20] Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ.
I looked but I do not remember Jesus saying to the Pharisees to not put to many rules on the People.
I suggest you become more informed of the Catholic Church and what we believe before you start stating any relationship to what the Catholic Church does and what the Pharisees did which Jesus talked about. I also hope you make declaration that the Pharisees that Jesus dealt with are not the same Pharisees which we have today, as I am sure they would not appreciate that.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Katz, to me this is a big deal. To raise Mary up to be the same as God is not ok. Mary is human and has sin. She needs a savior as much as all of us. Jesus is the only human who was without sin. Do I think that people can come to Jesus through the Catholic Church? Yes I do.[/quote]
I hope sir you quip, as what you have said is extreme heretics to do in the Catholic Church. One that will get you excommunicated for disobeying the first commandment. Please tell me you do not believe the Catholic Church adores or latria of St. Mary.
Mary was human, that does not mean she is with sin, after all Gabriel claimed she was Full of Grace, or was he just lying to her and flattering her in an attempt to persuade her to be G-d’s Mother.
Yes, she needs a savior, how would being sinless be equivalent to her not needing a savior. I do not remember the Bible saying Jesus is the only person without Sin. The Catholic Church is the only way as long as you believe in the Bible.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]StrawmanAndPlanIt wrote:
Which just serves to discredit all of you.
If it was “The truth” like you’re saying, then all the christians would agree on it.
Since your “truth” has no more firm ground than Tiribs “truth”, I see no reason to believe either.
But…but… MY bible says this… and mine is the right one…NO MY bible says THIS and MINE is the right one…[/quote]
My Church created the Bible, I win. My Bibles inerrancy comes from the fact that the Holy Ghost is with my Church, same for it’s doctrines. Happy? Stop using Straw-man and know who you are talking to.
Just because their is absolute truth, and some people might not believe it does not mean that we are all wrong.[/quote]
Didn’t realise you were Orthodox, thought you were Catholic…[/quote]
Not sure what you are getting at here.[/quote]
Someone else wrote after me in more detail. The Orthodox Church was the first church and pulled the Bible together. Catholicism split away from Orthodoxy.[/quote]
Nicene Creed, I say. As the Orthodox does not have the marks of being catholic.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
<<< A-theos
Without-God[/quote]
Which is
im-possible
without-possibility[/quote]
Lolz.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Katz, to me this is a big deal. To raise Mary up to be the same as God is not ok. Mary is human and has sin. She needs a savior as much as all of us. Jesus is the only human who was without sin. Do I think that people can come to Jesus through the Catholic Church? Yes I do.[/quote]
I hope sir you quip, as what you have said is extreme heretics to do in the Catholic Church. One that will get you excommunicated for disobeying the first commandment. Please tell me you do not believe the Catholic Church adores or latria of St. Mary.
Mary was human, that does not mean she is with sin, after all Gabriel claimed she was Full of Grace, or was he just lying to her and flattering her in an attempt to persuade her to be G-d’s Mother.
Yes, she needs a savior, how would being sinless be equivalent to her not needing a savior. I do not remember the Bible saying Jesus is the only person without Sin. The Catholic Church is the only way as long as you believe in the Bible.[/quote]
First, your last sentence. Jesus says, “I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no one shall come unto the Father except through me.” The Catholic Church does not save you, only the blood of Jesus Christ.
Second, the idea of Mary being without sin says that she is righteous in her own being, so she does not need a Savior so being equal with Jesus. This is what this doctrine tells us of Mary having no Sin. If Mary has sin then she needs Grace to be saved. “Hail Mary, Full of Grace.” This in an of itself proves that Mary has sin and needs grace. For we are saved by faith through Grace. Grace through Jesus Christ is what saves us. I am not trying to say Mary was not favored by God, because He did choose her to be his Mother. I am just saying there is a movement in the Catholic Church to make her more than what she was. She is human and sinful like the rest of us.
The Bible states that Jesus is the lamb who was slain. In the Old Testament an Unblemished Lamb was used to attone for sin. Unblemished means with out sin. Sin is the blemish on all humans.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
<<< A-theos
Without-God[/quote]
Which is
im-possible
without-possibility[/quote]
Lolz.[/quote]
I’m jist razzin the lad a bit now.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Katz, to me this is a big deal. To raise Mary up to be the same as God is not ok. Mary is human and has sin. She needs a savior as much as all of us. Jesus is the only human who was without sin. Do I think that people can come to Jesus through the Catholic Church? Yes I do.[/quote]
I hope sir you quip, as what you have said is extreme heretics to do in the Catholic Church. One that will get you excommunicated for disobeying the first commandment. Please tell me you do not believe the Catholic Church adores or latria of St. Mary.
Mary was human, that does not mean she is with sin, after all Gabriel claimed she was Full of Grace, or was he just lying to her and flattering her in an attempt to persuade her to be G-d’s Mother.
Yes, she needs a savior, how would being sinless be equivalent to her not needing a savior. I do not remember the Bible saying Jesus is the only person without Sin. The Catholic Church is the only way as long as you believe in the Bible.[/quote]
First, your last sentence. Jesus says, “I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no one shall come unto the Father except through me.” The Catholic Church does not save you, only the blood of Jesus Christ.
[/quote]
Stop twisting my words. I never said the Church saves you, the Holy Ghost does which is in the Catholic Church. However, only the Catholic Church has corporal authority to give the Blood and Body of Jesus Christ, as well as authority to absolve sins.
[quote]
Second, the idea of Mary being without sin says that she is righteous in her own being, so she does not need a Savior so being equal with Jesus.[/quote]
No it does not say anything about her being righteous in her own being. Were Adam and Eve righteous in their own being, they were born without sin? Where they righteous because they walked with G-d, until they distance themselves from G-d by disobeying Him?
[quote]
This is what this doctrine tells us of Mary having no Sin.[/quote]
The doctrine does not do that, you are taking doctrine that you have never read and assuming it says something. Maybe you should read the doctrine, understand the logic behind it because your assumptions are far off and not close to being correct.
[quote]
If Mary has sin then she needs Grace to be saved.[/quote]
Yes, we never denied this? What does this claim try to prove, she was full of grace, because the Lord is with her.
If anything it proves she was without sin and blemish since she was full of grace, there was no lack of grace inside her. The Lord was with her, are you saying G-d cannot do this or something?
That G-d cannot wipe Original Sin away? I am sure you reject the teachings of baptism as well.
We are saved by more than faith, we are saved by works as well.
I do not care that you are denying that Mary was favored by G-d or not, I am more flustered that you seem to be saying G-d cannot do something. She is human, that does not mean that G-d let her be born into slavery like the rest of us, especially since she was to raise our Messiah, and then bow down before Him in worship or latria. She is the new Eve, and her son is the new Adam, both again born without Sin, but this time they did not sin as they were all their days with the Lord. However, if Mary left the presence of the Lord, she would then be in sin, but she was never without the Lord.
[quote]
The Bible states that Jesus is the lamb who was slain. In the Old Testament an Unblemished Lamb was used to attone for sin. Unblemished means with out sin. Sin is the blemish on all humans.[/quote]
Yes, but you forget that just because Jesus was an unblemished lamb did not mean that much (many unblemished lambs were slain but that did not save anyone), but because he was the Perfect Unblemished Lamb, did it mean something.
God-Man, God who came down and sacrificed His own begotten son, for those that he adopted, both giving Oath to make himself the last slain sacrifice for all and enduring torture for his loved brothers and sister to die and raise on the third day.
Jesus is not just some unblemished lamb, unblemished lambs do not do much without other factors.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Katz, to me this is a big deal. To raise Mary up to be the same as God is not ok. Mary is human and has sin. She needs a savior as much as all of us. Jesus is the only human who was without sin. Do I think that people can come to Jesus through the Catholic Church? Yes I do.[/quote]
I hope sir you quip, as what you have said is extreme heretics to do in the Catholic Church. One that will get you excommunicated for disobeying the first commandment. Please tell me you do not believe the Catholic Church adores or latria of St. Mary.
Mary was human, that does not mean she is with sin, after all Gabriel claimed she was Full of Grace, or was he just lying to her and flattering her in an attempt to persuade her to be G-d’s Mother.
Yes, she needs a savior, how would being sinless be equivalent to her not needing a savior. I do not remember the Bible saying Jesus is the only person without Sin. The Catholic Church is the only way as long as you believe in the Bible.[/quote]
First, your last sentence. Jesus says, “I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no one shall come unto the Father except through me.” The Catholic Church does not save you, only the blood of Jesus Christ.
[/quote]
Stop twisting my words. I never said the Church saves you, the Holy Ghost does which is in the Catholic Church. However, only the Catholic Church has corporal authority to give the Blood and Body of Jesus Christ, as well as authority to absolve sins.
[quote]
Second, the idea of Mary being without sin says that she is righteous in her own being, so she does not need a Savior so being equal with Jesus.[/quote]
No it does not say anything about her being righteous in her own being. Were Adam and Eve righteous in their own being, they were born without sin? Where they righteous because they walked with G-d, until they distance themselves from G-d by disobeying Him?
[quote]
This is what this doctrine tells us of Mary having no Sin.[/quote]
The doctrine does not do that, you are taking doctrine that you have never read and assuming it says something. Maybe you should read the doctrine, understand the logic behind it because your assumptions are far off and not close to being correct.
[quote]
If Mary has sin then she needs Grace to be saved.[/quote]
Yes, we never denied this? What does this claim try to prove, she was full of grace, because the Lord is with her.
If anything it proves she was without sin and blemish since she was full of grace, there was no lack of grace inside her. The Lord was with her, are you saying G-d cannot do this or something?
That G-d cannot wipe Original Sin away? I am sure you reject the teachings of baptism as well.
We are saved by more than faith, we are saved by works as well.
I do not care that you are denying that Mary was favored by G-d or not, I am more flustered that you seem to be saying G-d cannot do something. She is human, that does not mean that G-d let her be born into slavery like the rest of us, especially since she was to raise our Messiah, and then bow down before Him in worship or latria. She is the new Eve, and her son is the new Adam, both again born without Sin, but this time they did not sin as they were all their days with the Lord. However, if Mary left the presence of the Lord, she would then be in sin, but she was never without the Lord.
[quote]
The Bible states that Jesus is the lamb who was slain. In the Old Testament an Unblemished Lamb was used to attone for sin. Unblemished means with out sin. Sin is the blemish on all humans.[/quote]
Yes, but you forget that just because Jesus was an unblemished lamb did not mean that much (many unblemished lambs were slain but that did not save anyone), but because he was the Perfect Unblemished Lamb, did it mean something.
God-Man, God who came down and sacrificed His own begotten son, for those that he adopted, both giving Oath to make himself the last slain sacrifice for all and enduring torture for his loved brothers and sister to die and raise on the third day.
Jesus is not just some unblemished lamb, unblemished lambs do not do much without other factors. [/quote]
The Bible itself shows that All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. “All have sinned.” This includes Mary. She can not be sinless. Can God do these things if he wants to yes, but what would the purpose be of Mary being sinless. This was not a teaching of the early church and as you said was not brought about until 1865. Jesus was the final sacrifice needed to bring us back to the Father. He had to be without sin to do that. As you say unblemished lambs do not do much without other factors. This is true because the Hebrews had to continually sacrifice lambs to atone for their sin. Jesus was the final sacrifice to atone for all sins forever. Jesus was/is/always will be the ultimate lamb. Jesus was the Lamb who was slain as stated through out the New Testament.
I like your idea that Mary is the New Eve and Jesus is the new Adam. In the creation story Adam came first and then Eve. Jesus is the new Adam plain and Simple. Mary was nothing more than a vessel that God used to bring himself into this world.
Another Argument that Mary had Sin: For the wages of sin is death. Mary died. If she was without sin she would not have died.
We are not saved by our works, it is by our works that people can see our faith.
I hope I am not twisting your words again. That is not my intentions.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
<<< A-theos
Without-God[/quote]
Which is
im-possible
without-possibility[/quote]
Lolz.[/quote]
I’m jist razzin the lad a bit now.
[/quote]
Sorry Cock, okay they do not believe in G-d.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< Sorry Cock, okay they do not believe in G-d.[/quote]
? =]
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Katz, to me this is a big deal. To raise Mary up to be the same as God is not ok. Mary is human and has sin. She needs a savior as much as all of us. Jesus is the only human who was without sin. Do I think that people can come to Jesus through the Catholic Church? Yes I do.[/quote]
I hope sir you quip, as what you have said is extreme heretics to do in the Catholic Church. One that will get you excommunicated for disobeying the first commandment. Please tell me you do not believe the Catholic Church adores or latria of St. Mary.
Mary was human, that does not mean she is with sin, after all Gabriel claimed she was Full of Grace, or was he just lying to her and flattering her in an attempt to persuade her to be G-d’s Mother.
Yes, she needs a savior, how would being sinless be equivalent to her not needing a savior. I do not remember the Bible saying Jesus is the only person without Sin. The Catholic Church is the only way as long as you believe in the Bible.[/quote]
First, your last sentence. Jesus says, “I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no one shall come unto the Father except through me.” The Catholic Church does not save you, only the blood of Jesus Christ.
[/quote]
Stop twisting my words. I never said the Church saves you, the Holy Ghost does which is in the Catholic Church. However, only the Catholic Church has corporal authority to give the Blood and Body of Jesus Christ, as well as authority to absolve sins.
[quote]
Second, the idea of Mary being without sin says that she is righteous in her own being, so she does not need a Savior so being equal with Jesus.[/quote]
No it does not say anything about her being righteous in her own being. Were Adam and Eve righteous in their own being, they were born without sin? Where they righteous because they walked with G-d, until they distance themselves from G-d by disobeying Him?
[quote]
This is what this doctrine tells us of Mary having no Sin.[/quote]
The doctrine does not do that, you are taking doctrine that you have never read and assuming it says something. Maybe you should read the doctrine, understand the logic behind it because your assumptions are far off and not close to being correct.
[quote]
If Mary has sin then she needs Grace to be saved.[/quote]
Yes, we never denied this? What does this claim try to prove, she was full of grace, because the Lord is with her.
If anything it proves she was without sin and blemish since she was full of grace, there was no lack of grace inside her. The Lord was with her, are you saying G-d cannot do this or something?
That G-d cannot wipe Original Sin away? I am sure you reject the teachings of baptism as well.
We are saved by more than faith, we are saved by works as well.
I do not care that you are denying that Mary was favored by G-d or not, I am more flustered that you seem to be saying G-d cannot do something. She is human, that does not mean that G-d let her be born into slavery like the rest of us, especially since she was to raise our Messiah, and then bow down before Him in worship or latria. She is the new Eve, and her son is the new Adam, both again born without Sin, but this time they did not sin as they were all their days with the Lord. However, if Mary left the presence of the Lord, she would then be in sin, but she was never without the Lord.
[quote]
The Bible states that Jesus is the lamb who was slain. In the Old Testament an Unblemished Lamb was used to attone for sin. Unblemished means with out sin. Sin is the blemish on all humans.[/quote]
Yes, but you forget that just because Jesus was an unblemished lamb did not mean that much (many unblemished lambs were slain but that did not save anyone), but because he was the Perfect Unblemished Lamb, did it mean something.
God-Man, God who came down and sacrificed His own begotten son, for those that he adopted, both giving Oath to make himself the last slain sacrifice for all and enduring torture for his loved brothers and sister to die and raise on the third day.
Jesus is not just some unblemished lamb, unblemished lambs do not do much without other factors. [/quote]
The Bible itself shows that All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. “All have sinned.” This includes Mary. She can not be sinless. Can God do these things if he wants to yes, but what would the purpose be of Mary being sinless. This was not a teaching of the early church and as you said was not brought about until 1865.[/quote]
There is oral tradition. And like I said, maybe read the doctrine so you understand. I sent you a link that explains the doctrine in short.
That is like saying that Abraham is merely a vessel which G-d brought a covenant to the world. Mary was more than a vessel, she is G-d’s mother, love thy neighbor! People are not merely anything, I am sure Jesus would really appreciate someone saying his mother was merely a vessel for his use. She deserves respect, she is not worshiped with the Godhead, if someone does or says they are, that is blasphemy and violation of the first commandment. In past, it would punished by penance of bread and water for years on end, as it should be because worshiping Mary as we worship the Godhead is far from okay.
There is no proof Mary died, physical or otherwise. I believe there is another person in the Bible that was taken up to Heaven without dying a physical death. 
[quote]
We are not saved by our works, it is by our works that people can see our faith.
I hope I am not twisting your words again. That is not my intentions.[/quote]
No, we are not saved by anything but Jesus. You have to have a relationship with Jesus, and the only way to have a relationship with Jesus is by having faith and doing works.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Katz, to me this is a big deal. To raise Mary up to be the same as God is not ok. Mary is human and has sin. She needs a savior as much as all of us. Jesus is the only human who was without sin. Do I think that people can come to Jesus through the Catholic Church? Yes I do.[/quote]
I hope sir you quip, as what you have said is extreme heretics to do in the Catholic Church. One that will get you excommunicated for disobeying the first commandment. Please tell me you do not believe the Catholic Church adores or latria of St. Mary.
Mary was human, that does not mean she is with sin, after all Gabriel claimed she was Full of Grace, or was he just lying to her and flattering her in an attempt to persuade her to be G-d’s Mother.
Yes, she needs a savior, how would being sinless be equivalent to her not needing a savior. I do not remember the Bible saying Jesus is the only person without Sin. The Catholic Church is the only way as long as you believe in the Bible.[/quote]
First, your last sentence. Jesus says, “I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no one shall come unto the Father except through me.” The Catholic Church does not save you, only the blood of Jesus Christ.
[/quote]
Stop twisting my words. I never said the Church saves you, the Holy Ghost does which is in the Catholic Church. However, only the Catholic Church has corporal authority to give the Blood and Body of Jesus Christ, as well as authority to absolve sins.
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Second, the idea of Mary being without sin says that she is righteous in her own being, so she does not need a Savior so being equal with Jesus.[/quote]
No it does not say anything about her being righteous in her own being. Were Adam and Eve righteous in their own being, they were born without sin? Where they righteous because they walked with G-d, until they distance themselves from G-d by disobeying Him?
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This is what this doctrine tells us of Mary having no Sin.[/quote]
The doctrine does not do that, you are taking doctrine that you have never read and assuming it says something. Maybe you should read the doctrine, understand the logic behind it because your assumptions are far off and not close to being correct.
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If Mary has sin then she needs Grace to be saved.[/quote]
Yes, we never denied this? What does this claim try to prove, she was full of grace, because the Lord is with her.
If anything it proves she was without sin and blemish since she was full of grace, there was no lack of grace inside her. The Lord was with her, are you saying G-d cannot do this or something?
That G-d cannot wipe Original Sin away? I am sure you reject the teachings of baptism as well.
We are saved by more than faith, we are saved by works as well.
I do not care that you are denying that Mary was favored by G-d or not, I am more flustered that you seem to be saying G-d cannot do something. She is human, that does not mean that G-d let her be born into slavery like the rest of us, especially since she was to raise our Messiah, and then bow down before Him in worship or latria. She is the new Eve, and her son is the new Adam, both again born without Sin, but this time they did not sin as they were all their days with the Lord. However, if Mary left the presence of the Lord, she would then be in sin, but she was never without the Lord.
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The Bible states that Jesus is the lamb who was slain. In the Old Testament an Unblemished Lamb was used to attone for sin. Unblemished means with out sin. Sin is the blemish on all humans.[/quote]
Yes, but you forget that just because Jesus was an unblemished lamb did not mean that much (many unblemished lambs were slain but that did not save anyone), but because he was the Perfect Unblemished Lamb, did it mean something.
God-Man, God who came down and sacrificed His own begotten son, for those that he adopted, both giving Oath to make himself the last slain sacrifice for all and enduring torture for his loved brothers and sister to die and raise on the third day.
Jesus is not just some unblemished lamb, unblemished lambs do not do much without other factors. [/quote]
The Bible itself shows that All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. “All have sinned.” This includes Mary. She can not be sinless. Can God do these things if he wants to yes, but what would the purpose be of Mary being sinless. This was not a teaching of the early church and as you said was not brought about until 1865.[/quote]
There is oral tradition. And like I said, maybe read the doctrine so you understand. I sent you a link that explains the doctrine in short.
That is like saying that Abraham is merely a vessel which G-d brought a covenant to the world. Mary was more than a vessel, she is G-d’s mother, love thy neighbor! People are not merely anything, I am sure Jesus would really appreciate someone saying his mother was merely a vessel for his use. She deserves respect, she is not worshiped with the Godhead, if someone does or says they are, that is blasphemy and violation of the first commandment. In past, it would punished by penance of bread and water for years on end, as it should be because worshiping Mary as we worship the Godhead is far from okay.
There is no proof Mary died, physical or otherwise. I believe there is another person in the Bible that was taken up to Heaven without dying a physical death.
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We are not saved by our works, it is by our works that people can see our faith.
I hope I am not twisting your words again. That is not my intentions.[/quote]
No, we are not saved by anything but Jesus. You have to have a relationship with Jesus, and the only way to have a relationship with Jesus is by having faith and doing works.[/quote]
I hope you are right that Mary is not to be worshipped. I have heard a rummor going around that the Vatican is actually thinking about giving Mary the title of Diety. Hypothetical, if the Pope was to come out and make this a doctine of the Roman Catholic Church what would you say about it?
Stated,
“…Mary was human, that does not mean she is with sin…”
I John 1:8 “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”
I John 1:10 “If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
John uses the noun “sin” rather than a verb (“we do not sin”) to emphasize sin as a principle in human nature. The statement that we are without sin or have never sinned defames the character of God and presents Him to the world as a liar, “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3:23).
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Second, the idea of Mary being without sin says that she is righteous in her own being, so she does not need a Savior so being equal with Jesus. [/quote]
False. We believe her state of grace to be a result of GOD’s actions. That is, through his intervention, will, and plan. Big, big, difference.
Say there is pit in which a man would at least break some bones if he fell in. Even more troublesome, this pit is obscured by foliage and debris, so that any man coming along would inevitably fall in. However, say there is one man who knows of it’s existence (perhaps from an old family story). So he goes to investigate, and just as he’s arriving a woman is only feet away from unknowingly walking into danger. But the new arrival calls out to her, intervenes, and steers her away from tragedy. Has she preserved her safety through own power? Or was it intervention?
We believe Christ was sinless because of his OWN divine nature and will.
We believe Mary was sinless because of the Divine’s nature and will.
So yes, Mary did need a savior.