[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
My Church created the Bible, I win. [/quote]
I beg to differ. I’ve seen copies of the Torah that are far older than the Roman Church, or any Christian denomination.
The oldest contiguous Christian denomination, BTW, is the Eqyptian Orthodox. I know this because I served as a tour guide (read: armed body guard in PA areas) in the Church of the Holy Sepulchar.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
So now I need evidence for the non existence of something. How about you put up one piece of credible evidence that the Jews were taken into bondage by the Egyptians and then freed. One single piece.[/quote]
I do believe that Jewbacca and I both responded to this already . . .[/quote]
No you haven’t. There is no evidence whatsoever to support the story of the Jews being in bondage to the Egyptians. It simply didn’t happen.[/quote]
Yes, the Eqyptians made stone monuments for kicks.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
So now I need evidence for the non existence of something. How about you put up one piece of credible evidence that the Jews were taken into bondage by the Egyptians and then freed. One single piece.[/quote]
I do believe that Jewbacca and I both responded to this already . . .[/quote]
No you haven’t. There is no evidence whatsoever to support the story of the Jews being in bondage to the Egyptians. It simply didn’t happen.[/quote]
I gave you a laundry list of evidence . . . ignore if it you like
[/quote]
Funny, but recently Eqypt sued for repayment of the gold stolen by the Hebrews fleeing Eqypt. Seriously.
You know, I’ve gotten into these sorts of arguments before with atheist friends. At the end of the day, if you’re looking for empirical evidence, then you’re not understanding religion. As a Jew for example, I think that it is less about weather the exodus occurred literally, as written in the Torah, and more about what that Torah means to me and my life today.
I believe that the bible is perfect as I have received it from hashem. MEANING that what I have in front of me today is exactly what I am supposed to have in front of me.
I should point out here that this is my own interpretation, but it is common among the “Liberal” streams of Judaism, and less so (but not unheard of) in the Orthodox Jewish world.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
So now I need evidence for the non existence of something. How about you put up one piece of credible evidence that the Jews were taken into bondage by the Egyptians and then freed. One single piece.[/quote]
I do believe that Jewbacca and I both responded to this already . . .[/quote]
No you haven’t. There is no evidence whatsoever to support the story of the Jews being in bondage to the Egyptians. It simply didn’t happen.[/quote]
I gave you a laundry list of evidence . . . ignore if it you like
[/quote]
Funny, but recently Eqypt sued for repayment of the gold stolen by the Hebrews fleeing Eqypt. Seriously.
[/quote]
The claim was made as a political statement against the Jews for their suposed claims against the rest of the world it never actually went to court. Also the source cited was Exodus so we are still lacking any evidence.
^ what’s the point of answering your questions if you’re just going to ignore the answer?
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
The claim was made as a political statement against the Jews for their suposed claims against the rest of the world it never actually went to court. Also the source cited was Exodus so we are still lacking any evidence. [/quote]
Maybe you could stop dancing around on this issue a bit and address Irish and Jewbacca on the evidence they posted, which you asked for. And since you already stated you must have missed it, but apparently neglected to go back, find it, and respond, it’s on p30 halfway down.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
^ what’s the point of answering your questions if you’re just going to ignore the answer?[/quote]
What? He posted a spurious claim based on a passage in the Bible. That is not proof. Exodus was written by the founders of Judaism as a back story to give their little tribe a history and legitimacy.
No historian would accept it as evidence. Why is the slavery and exodus not written about by the Egyptians who have very well documented histories from the period?
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
^ what’s the point of answering your questions if you’re just going to ignore the answer?[/quote]
What? He posted a spurious claim based on a passage in the Bible. That is not proof. Exodus was written by the founders of Judaism as a back story to give their little tribe a history and legitimacy.
No historian would accept it as evidence. Why is the slavery and exodus not written about by the Egyptians who have very well documented histories from the period?[/quote]
You are like a little kid screaming nah-nah-nah “Can’t hear you.”
There are ample references by the Eqyptians about the proto-Jews in their “employ.” Just for random example, the Egyptians believed the Hebrews to have power over snakes, and there are Semetic spells written in the pyramids you can go see today.
If you want to be an informed sceptic, again, attack the Passover, as there are only a handful of contemporary accounts of the events from the Eqyptian side (cited in my earlier post) — although there are contemporaneous Jewish records of the events.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
I have to jump in here. Large parts of the old testement are clearly just made up back story as an attempt to legitimise claims made by the Jewish people, others are borrowed folk stories.
Please tell me for instance in your research where you found evidence of the Jews being in bondage to the Egyptians.[/quote]
clicked a wrong button somewhere . . .
I was typing Professor Bietak’s work at Tell el-Daba
[/quote]
As far as I am aware he discovered workers huts, nothing to indicate that they were Jewish or slaves. In fact the evidence shows that the workers were actually paid artisans.
Hoffmeier himself states at the begining of his book that there is no archaeological or physical evidence to prove that the Exodus tradition is true
need something a bit more specific than some unnamed archeologist
Why would you bring that up, has nothing to do with the enslavement and exodus, the claim was that this was King Solomon’s border fort.
I take it you mean Fayum and if so, what has that got to do with anything. It was a burial site from 30BC.
Are you referring to Immanuel Velikovsky? Who thinks our history was shaped by Mars and Venus nearly hitting the Earth?
A workers camp that was abandoned after the Pyramid construction was completed. Nothing at all to point to Israel.
What evidence?
Again, what evidence?
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
^ what’s the point of answering your questions if you’re just going to ignore the answer?[/quote]
What? He posted a spurious claim based on a passage in the Bible. That is not proof. Exodus was written by the founders of Judaism as a back story to give their little tribe a history and legitimacy.
No historian would accept it as evidence. Why is the slavery and exodus not written about by the Egyptians who have very well documented histories from the period?[/quote]
You are like a little kid screaming nah-nah-nah “Can’t hear you.”
There are ample references by the Eqyptians about the proto-Jews in their “employ.” Just for random example, the Egyptians believed the Hebrews to have power over snakes, and there are Semetic spells written in the pyramids you can go see today.
If you want to be an informed sceptic, again, attack the Passover, as there are only a handful of contemporary accounts of the events from the Eqyptian side (cited in my earlier post) — although there are contemporaneous Jewish records of the events.[/quote]
Yes there were Jews in Egypt, never disputed that. 600,000 fighting men in slavery who were let go after a series of plagues. No evidence whatsoever.
How am I like a kid saying nanana?
You guys are saying the Bible (or Torah) is true because it says it is true and in the Bible (Torah) it says… so that is proof that it is true.
^ this would be funny if it were not so sad . . . keep on parroting wiki . . .
I’m gonne be so far behind behind by the time I get a chance to respond here again =[
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I’m gonne be so far behind behind by the time I get a chance to respond here again =[[/quote]
I know, I totally missed Irish’s post from a few pages back then end up getting flak form everyone over not responding. LOL!
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
^ this would be funny if it were not so sad . . . keep on parroting wiki . . . [/quote]
OK, give me a direct quote from Bietak saying he has found evidence for the Exodus story. Tell me I am lying that Hoffmeier clearly states in his book that there is no archeological evidence for what he claims. Refute any of the other points I have made.
OMG - seriously? have you actually read any of the sources I gave you? Didn’t think so . . . Go read the material for yourself - do your own homework - as Jewbacca and I both have pointed out - there are plenty of sources of proof for Israelite presence, slavery and exodus in the necessary time frame (Including 9 scarabs engraved with jacob’s name found by Bietak), the current diaogue is whether there is substantial evidence for the passover event itself (thus the mass grave site) and following on. If you are merely relying on wiki or similar sites for your conclusions and ideas, you deserve the ignorance you wallow in . . .
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
OMG - seriously? have you actually read any of the sources I gave you? Didn’t think so . . . Go read the material for yourself - do your own homework - as Jewbacca and I both have pointed out - there are plenty of sources of proof for Israelite presence, slavery and exodus in the necessary time frame (Including 9 scarabs engraved with jacob’s name found by Bietak), the current diaogue is whether there is substantial evidence for the passover event itself (thus the mass grave site) and following on. If you are merely relying on wiki or similar sites for your conclusions and ideas, you deserve the ignorance you wallow in . . .[/quote]
So that’s a no then.
wrong - that is a “yes” there is plenty of proof . . . sorry that I happen to be in a training class and cannot spend hours educating you on your obvious lack of information . . . it’s there if you want to bother to do your own research.
Your original question was what proof I found to support the story of Exodus found in the Bible - i gave you a brief rundown on the basic archeological sites and some of the leading sources that i could remember off the top of my head. When taken as a whole, there is plenty of evidence - I suggest you go do some study on your own and actually read the sources rather than just the websites that agree with your presuppositions . . .
Have you ever noticed that the people who deny simple historical events in the Torah also believe in aliens?
I’ve noticed an amazing overlap.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Have you ever noticed that the people who deny simple historical events in the Torah also believe in aliens?
I’ve noticed an amazing overlap.[/quote]
I don’t see how believing in aliens discredits anyone’s opinion, unless they claim to know for a fact there are aliens and get into that whole nonsense.