Misconceptions of Christianity

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
341

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

I wouldn’t go that far (though I do take your points) I think that the multiverse theory is more rationale than there being a God as described in the bible. I also think that it is more internally consistent than the God of the Bible.

Also remember that I have not accepted the existence of a multiverse. I just accept that the theory seems to stack up. If a better theory comes along I am open to it. The same is not true of religious believers for whom doubting the gospel is a sin.[/quote]

I like your intellectual honesty - its refreshing.

I will disagree with one point though - God never said that we could not question our beliefs - in fact we are encouraged to constantly challenge and test them to see if they are true. It is another classic misconception about God that He is somehow afraid of human questions.

My dad is fond of saying that “did it ever occur to you that nothing ever occurs to God?” It is his way of stating that God welcomes our challenges and questions, and even our anger and frustration.

I fear you have been taught some pretty sad ideas about Christianity. You’ll find the reality is much different than that . . . you’ve accepted some of the worst oversimplifications and mischaracterizations of our beliefs . . that saddens me.[/quote]

Yes and no. There are parts of the bible where god appears open to questioning and there are parts where he goes all smitey on people for daring to doubt his word.

On the whole though it is the Church that is terrified of anyone questioning its tenets, not God and that is an important distinction.[/quote]

Which church is this? A faith not open to scrutiny is not a solid faith.[/quote]

Oh I am not playing that game. Whichever schism of the Church I refer to (and there are thousands) I will just be told that it is not the true faith.

On the whole (and there are notable exceptions) religious leaders don’t like people questioning the tenets of their faith too deeply. Faith in the Christian Church is seen as a desirable quality. Proof denies faith so the search for proof goes against the Church.[/quote]

The Catholic Church proves you wrong. We even hire Devil’s Advocates to demand Proof within the Church. [/quote]

Yes of course, the Catholic Church is exactly who would spring to mind when you are talking about openness.[/quote]

I thought you were talking about scrutiny, now we are talking about openness?[/quote]

The two are closely linked. And given the RC Church’s history of denying the existence of documents that don’t support cannon I think it is fair to hit them on both counts.

342

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

Look, you will never see me say there is no god. There could well be a god, I find it unlikely but obviously not impossible. My view is that I am yet to encounter anything that either cannot be explained without recourse to a god or at least has no hint of an explanation that would therefore necessitate a god. Even if I were to encounter something like that, my first recourse would be to assume that either more data or more time to think was needed. The system works perfectly well without a god so why assume a god? [/quote]

Talk to a person who has seen a miracle and you will know someone who has encountered at the very least a god.
[/quote]

OK, give me an example of a miracle then.[/quote]

Typically, G-d uses miracles in Judaism to give a given person the “street credibility” that he is a representative of G-d. Example, Elisha dividing water or Moses turning a rod into a snake, etc.

Modern miracles are often more subtle.

One miracle, to me, at least, has been the continued existance of the Jewish people as a people and the re-assembly of Israel in Israel.

The scattering and near-destruction of my people has been foretold some 3,500 years ago.

Basically every major power has attempted to eliminate us: Babylonians, Pagan Romans, Papal States (with forced conversions and kidnapping of children), various pogroms in Russia, Germany, England, et al, Hitler, Stalin, modern muslim nations.

There is NOTHING special about my people. We are not bigger, stronger, faster, or more numerous.

And yet we remain while most all on that list are nothing but dust.

And not only have we remained, but have somehow managed to be at the turning points of civilization:

from Chris Columbus (yeah, his mother was Jewish, so he’s Jewish),
to Leanardo DaVinci
To ending WWI for England by inventing certain explosives
To ending WWII for the Allies by inventing nukes
To Jonas Salk (vaccines)

Even Christianity (while the theology is certainly disagreed with by Jewish people) follows the core philosophical and ethical guidelines set forth in Judaism (and, more precisely Rabbi Hillel, who first espoused the “Golden Rule — love thy neighbor as thyself” about a century before Christianity came about. (Indeed, the entire Sermon on the Mount is highly derivative of Rabbi Hillel’s teachings.)

Christianity changed the world, generally for the better.

However imperfectly, Judeo-Christian ethics are the ethics of the modern world, or at least the goal.

It staggers me that a completely insignificant semi-migratory tribe from the backwaters of Judea — has played such a vital part in civilization.

There is no rhyme or reason for us to have played the role we have played in the world, but that G-d picked up and decided that he would use this least-of-the-peoples in the world as evidence of Him.

Our existence is a miracle.

And it is also why truly evil people – Hitler, Stalin — seek to destroy Jewish people first, as they are rebelling against G-d Himself.

[/quote]

Not really a miracle though because you can explain it perfectly without recourse to the mystical.

A group of people that has a common belief and suffers a lot of hardship, they use that hardship to draw strength and also draw themselves together, supporting each other in whatever community they arrive in, lending money to start up businesses, giving emotional and physical support. Due to the wandering nature there are Jewish communities pretty much everywhere therefore there is a good chance that there will be Jewish people involved in many of modern history’s important moments.

343

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

Look, you will never see me say there is no god. There could well be a god, I find it unlikely but obviously not impossible. My view is that I am yet to encounter anything that either cannot be explained without recourse to a god or at least has no hint of an explanation that would therefore necessitate a god. Even if I were to encounter something like that, my first recourse would be to assume that either more data or more time to think was needed. The system works perfectly well without a god so why assume a god? [/quote]

Talk to a person who has seen a miracle and you will know someone who has encountered at the very least a god.
[/quote]

OK, give me an example of a miracle then.[/quote]

Typically, G-d uses miracles in Judaism to give a given person the “street credibility” that he is a representative of G-d. Example, Elisha dividing water or Moses turning a rod into a snake, etc.

Modern miracles are often more subtle.

One miracle, to me, at least, has been the continued existance of the Jewish people as a people and the re-assembly of Israel in Israel.

The scattering and near-destruction of my people has been foretold some 3,500 years ago.

Basically every major power has attempted to eliminate us: Babylonians, Pagan Romans, Papal States (with forced conversions and kidnapping of children), various pogroms in Russia, Germany, England, et al, Hitler, Stalin, modern muslim nations.

There is NOTHING special about my people. We are not bigger, stronger, faster, or more numerous.

And yet we remain while most all on that list are nothing but dust.

And not only have we remained, but have somehow managed to be at the turning points of civilization:

from Chris Columbus (yeah, his mother was Jewish, so he’s Jewish),
to Leanardo DaVinci
To ending WWI for England by inventing certain explosives
To ending WWII for the Allies by inventing nukes
To Jonas Salk (vaccines)

Even Christianity (while the theology is certainly disagreed with by Jewish people) follows the core philosophical and ethical guidelines set forth in Judaism (and, more precisely Rabbi Hillel, who first espoused the “Golden Rule — love thy neighbor as thyself” about a century before Christianity came about. (Indeed, the entire Sermon on the Mount is highly derivative of Rabbi Hillel’s teachings.)

Christianity changed the world, generally for the better.

However imperfectly, Judeo-Christian ethics are the ethics of the modern world, or at least the goal.

It staggers me that a completely insignificant semi-migratory tribe from the backwaters of Judea — has played such a vital part in civilization.

There is no rhyme or reason for us to have played the role we have played in the world, but that G-d picked up and decided that he would use this least-of-the-peoples in the world as evidence of Him.

Our existence is a miracle.

And it is also why truly evil people – Hitler, Stalin — seek to destroy Jewish people first, as they are rebelling against G-d Himself.

[/quote]

Not really a miracle though because you can explain it perfectly without recourse to the mystical.

A group of people that has a common belief and suffers a lot of hardship, they use that hardship to draw strength and also draw themselves together, supporting each other in whatever community they arrive in, lending money to start up businesses, giving emotional and physical support. Due to the wandering nature there are Jewish communities pretty much everywhere therefore there is a good chance that there will be Jewish people involved in many of modern history’s important moments.[/quote]

Yeah, but, pretty much admittedly, you are not going to see a miracle in any event, no matter how grand.

344

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

Look, you will never see me say there is no god. There could well be a god, I find it unlikely but obviously not impossible. My view is that I am yet to encounter anything that either cannot be explained without recourse to a god or at least has no hint of an explanation that would therefore necessitate a god. Even if I were to encounter something like that, my first recourse would be to assume that either more data or more time to think was needed. The system works perfectly well without a god so why assume a god? [/quote]

Talk to a person who has seen a miracle and you will know someone who has encountered at the very least a god.
[/quote]

OK, give me an example of a miracle then.[/quote]

Typically, G-d uses miracles in Judaism to give a given person the “street credibility” that he is a representative of G-d. Example, Elisha dividing water or Moses turning a rod into a snake, etc.

Modern miracles are often more subtle.

One miracle, to me, at least, has been the continued existance of the Jewish people as a people and the re-assembly of Israel in Israel.

The scattering and near-destruction of my people has been foretold some 3,500 years ago.

Basically every major power has attempted to eliminate us: Babylonians, Pagan Romans, Papal States (with forced conversions and kidnapping of children), various pogroms in Russia, Germany, England, et al, Hitler, Stalin, modern muslim nations.

There is NOTHING special about my people. We are not bigger, stronger, faster, or more numerous.

And yet we remain while most all on that list are nothing but dust.

And not only have we remained, but have somehow managed to be at the turning points of civilization:

from Chris Columbus (yeah, his mother was Jewish, so he’s Jewish),
to Leanardo DaVinci
To ending WWI for England by inventing certain explosives
To ending WWII for the Allies by inventing nukes
To Jonas Salk (vaccines)

Even Christianity (while the theology is certainly disagreed with by Jewish people) follows the core philosophical and ethical guidelines set forth in Judaism (and, more precisely Rabbi Hillel, who first espoused the “Golden Rule — love thy neighbor as thyself” about a century before Christianity came about. (Indeed, the entire Sermon on the Mount is highly derivative of Rabbi Hillel’s teachings.)

Christianity changed the world, generally for the better.

However imperfectly, Judeo-Christian ethics are the ethics of the modern world, or at least the goal.

It staggers me that a completely insignificant semi-migratory tribe from the backwaters of Judea — has played such a vital part in civilization.

There is no rhyme or reason for us to have played the role we have played in the world, but that G-d picked up and decided that he would use this least-of-the-peoples in the world as evidence of Him.

Our existence is a miracle.

And it is also why truly evil people – Hitler, Stalin — seek to destroy Jewish people first, as they are rebelling against G-d Himself.

[/quote]

Not really a miracle though because you can explain it perfectly without recourse to the mystical.

A group of people that has a common belief and suffers a lot of hardship, they use that hardship to draw strength and also draw themselves together, supporting each other in whatever community they arrive in, lending money to start up businesses, giving emotional and physical support. Due to the wandering nature there are Jewish communities pretty much everywhere therefore there is a good chance that there will be Jewish people involved in many of modern history’s important moments.[/quote]

Yeah, but, pretty much admittedly, you are not going to see a miracle in any event, no matter how grand. [/quote]

Can we start with some examples of modern miracles then and at least try to have something that doesn-t have an easily explained mechanism behind it?

345

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
I’m not religious myself and perhaps even atheist, but the one requirement I have for living in peace with religious people of all faiths is that each person’s beliefs be respected. And to me, a non-belief is on the same level as a belief.

I find religion to be like language: each is an interpretation of the same concept and one cannot be more right than another. They are different expressions of pretty much the same thing (yes, there are differences, but not enough to invalidate my point).

I’ve only come across a few religious folks (a few Christians and a Muslim couple) who were content with following their religion and having close friends who were agnostic or atheist, without feeling the need to be self righteous and “recruit” these friends. For me, the major reason religion get such a bad reputation is for the self righteousness that tends to come with devout followers.

As long as I can have that respect for my non-belief from a religious friend or colleague or significant other, I can be at peace and there can be peace between us.[/quote]

I think most of the intolerance comes from not being rational or level headed. Several of my professors are atheists, agnostics, &c. However, I do not fly off the handle because they bring up an argument for something against what I believe, no more than they fly off the handle when I bring up an argument that supports my belief.

I do however have a harder time when it comes to dealing with people that are not Catholic and they give me reasons why they are not Catholic and bring up either irrelevant premises, false premises, or just plain straw-man arguments which do not deal with what the Catholic Church teaches or believes (when I say teaches I mean when a Bishop teaches doctrine, not what some lunatic Priest thinks something means a.k.a. spirit of Vatican II).

346

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

Look, you will never see me say there is no god. There could well be a god, I find it unlikely but obviously not impossible. My view is that I am yet to encounter anything that either cannot be explained without recourse to a god or at least has no hint of an explanation that would therefore necessitate a god. Even if I were to encounter something like that, my first recourse would be to assume that either more data or more time to think was needed. The system works perfectly well without a god so why assume a god? [/quote]

Talk to a person who has seen a miracle and you will know someone who has encountered at the very least a god.
[/quote]

OK, give me an example of a miracle then.[/quote]

Typically, G-d uses miracles in Judaism to give a given person the “street credibility” that he is a representative of G-d. Example, Elisha dividing water or Moses turning a rod into a snake, etc.

Modern miracles are often more subtle.

One miracle, to me, at least, has been the continued existance of the Jewish people as a people and the re-assembly of Israel in Israel.

The scattering and near-destruction of my people has been foretold some 3,500 years ago.

Basically every major power has attempted to eliminate us: Babylonians, Pagan Romans, Papal States (with forced conversions and kidnapping of children), various pogroms in Russia, Germany, England, et al, Hitler, Stalin, modern muslim nations.

There is NOTHING special about my people. We are not bigger, stronger, faster, or more numerous.

And yet we remain while most all on that list are nothing but dust.

And not only have we remained, but have somehow managed to be at the turning points of civilization:

from Chris Columbus (yeah, his mother was Jewish, so he’s Jewish),
to Leanardo DaVinci
To ending WWI for England by inventing certain explosives
To ending WWII for the Allies by inventing nukes
To Jonas Salk (vaccines)

Even Christianity (while the theology is certainly disagreed with by Jewish people) follows the core philosophical and ethical guidelines set forth in Judaism (and, more precisely Rabbi Hillel, who first espoused the “Golden Rule — love thy neighbor as thyself” about a century before Christianity came about. (Indeed, the entire Sermon on the Mount is highly derivative of Rabbi Hillel’s teachings.)

Christianity changed the world, generally for the better.

However imperfectly, Judeo-Christian ethics are the ethics of the modern world, or at least the goal.

It staggers me that a completely insignificant semi-migratory tribe from the backwaters of Judea — has played such a vital part in civilization.

There is no rhyme or reason for us to have played the role we have played in the world, but that G-d picked up and decided that he would use this least-of-the-peoples in the world as evidence of Him.

Our existence is a miracle.

And it is also why truly evil people – Hitler, Stalin — seek to destroy Jewish people first, as they are rebelling against G-d Himself.

[/quote]

Just curious if you knew that the first Catholics were Jewish people. I am a Jewish/Catholic (not that one parent is Jewish and the other is Catholic), and am not a gentile. Kinda hard to explain as I am still learning it myself, but as it was explained to me. Ancestors came from Judea, but the family did the early Church thing and we’ve been in it since. Plus the various Jewish families we have married into and are my direct ancestors.

347

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

Look, you will never see me say there is no god. There could well be a god, I find it unlikely but obviously not impossible. My view is that I am yet to encounter anything that either cannot be explained without recourse to a god or at least has no hint of an explanation that would therefore necessitate a god. Even if I were to encounter something like that, my first recourse would be to assume that either more data or more time to think was needed. The system works perfectly well without a god so why assume a god? [/quote]

Talk to a person who has seen a miracle and you will know someone who has encountered at the very least a god.
[/quote]

OK, give me an example of a miracle then.[/quote]

Typically, G-d uses miracles in Judaism to give a given person the “street credibility” that he is a representative of G-d. Example, Elisha dividing water or Moses turning a rod into a snake, etc.

Modern miracles are often more subtle.

One miracle, to me, at least, has been the continued existance of the Jewish people as a people and the re-assembly of Israel in Israel.

The scattering and near-destruction of my people has been foretold some 3,500 years ago.

Basically every major power has attempted to eliminate us: Babylonians, Pagan Romans, Papal States (with forced conversions and kidnapping of children), various pogroms in Russia, Germany, England, et al, Hitler, Stalin, modern muslim nations.

There is NOTHING special about my people. We are not bigger, stronger, faster, or more numerous.

And yet we remain while most all on that list are nothing but dust.

And not only have we remained, but have somehow managed to be at the turning points of civilization:

from Chris Columbus (yeah, his mother was Jewish, so he’s Jewish),
to Leanardo DaVinci
To ending WWI for England by inventing certain explosives
To ending WWII for the Allies by inventing nukes
To Jonas Salk (vaccines)

Even Christianity (while the theology is certainly disagreed with by Jewish people) follows the core philosophical and ethical guidelines set forth in Judaism (and, more precisely Rabbi Hillel, who first espoused the “Golden Rule — love thy neighbor as thyself” about a century before Christianity came about. (Indeed, the entire Sermon on the Mount is highly derivative of Rabbi Hillel’s teachings.)

Christianity changed the world, generally for the better.

However imperfectly, Judeo-Christian ethics are the ethics of the modern world, or at least the goal.

It staggers me that a completely insignificant semi-migratory tribe from the backwaters of Judea — has played such a vital part in civilization.

There is no rhyme or reason for us to have played the role we have played in the world, but that G-d picked up and decided that he would use this least-of-the-peoples in the world as evidence of Him.

Our existence is a miracle.

And it is also why truly evil people – Hitler, Stalin — seek to destroy Jewish people first, as they are rebelling against G-d Himself.

[/quote]

Not really a miracle though because you can explain it perfectly without recourse to the mystical.

A group of people that has a common belief and suffers a lot of hardship, they use that hardship to draw strength and also draw themselves together, supporting each other in whatever community they arrive in, lending money to start up businesses, giving emotional and physical support. Due to the wandering nature there are Jewish communities pretty much everywhere therefore there is a good chance that there will be Jewish people involved in many of modern history’s important moments.[/quote]

Yeah, but, pretty much admittedly, you are not going to see a miracle in any event, no matter how grand. [/quote]

Can we start with some examples of modern miracles then and at least try to have something that doesn-t have an easily explained mechanism behind it?[/quote]

Well you could look at all the people that have had tumors, &c. that after being prayed over disappear from x-rays, MRI’s, &c.

You could look at the Nun who was cured of Parkinson’s disease after asking John Paul II to pray for her illness.

348

Hey Brother Chris,
Why have no midgets been given full grown bodies?
Why haven’t any amputees suddenly regrown their limbs?
Why haven’t any disfigured people suddenly regained their faces?

There is no recorded history of any of that ever happening.

349

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< Just curious if you knew that the first Catholics were Jewish people. I am a Jewish/Catholic (not that one parent is Jewish and the other is Catholic), and am not a gentile. Kinda hard to explain as I am still learning it myself, but as it was explained to me. Ancestors came from Judea, but the family did the early Church thing and we’ve been in it since. Plus the various Jewish families we have married into and are my direct ancestors. [/quote]
Something to consider with regard to JewISHness.

Romans 2:25-29:
"For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Galatians 3:24-29:
Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

This is a consistent and unmistakable new covenant theme. On a broader scale the whole book of Hebrews deals with exactly this. Being authentically, indeed eternally Jewish and therefore a child of Abraham according to the promise that through him would come the divine Savior and in Him would all the nations of the earth be blessed, IS to be in Christ and He in you. This was the entire point and purpose of the nation of Israel right from the 12th of Genesis, but especially beginning in 17 where God seals His “everlasting covenant” with Abram renaming him Abraham and in which Abraham becomes the father of the faith believing God and having it accounted to him as righteousness.

350

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
Hey Brother Chris,
Why have no midgets been given full grown bodies?
Why haven’t any amputees suddenly regrown their limbs?
Why haven’t any disfigured people suddenly regained their faces?

There is no recorded history of any of that ever happening. [/quote]

This is one of the main points of the “Why Won’t God Heal Amputees?” argument… apparently, God answers prayers all the time, but never for situations in which the actual mechanisms causing the result can’t be explained through any rational, scientific reasoning.

It’s not “why doesn’t God do everything we want him to”.

And a quick Google search shows the nun had a relapse after being “miraculously” “cured”.

351

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
<<< I am also not a Calvinist but I enjoy some of the apologetic material that James White puts out, though I lean towards biblical literalism as well. Glad to hear your wife is ok pat.[/quote]
James White gave me my very first Cornelius Van Til book back in the late 80’s. I was on his radio show exposing the rank heresy of the Word of Faith abominoids.(wadda story it is how that came about) He was in Phoenix and I was in North Dakota. We did it live over the phone.

I was in the middle of reading the “Institutes of the Christian Religion” at that time and was literally days from my final awakening into the doctrines of grace. He sent me some of his own tapes, a small book by Jonathan Edwards and Van Til’s “The Defense of the Faith.”

This period in my journey was all about understanding sin and depravity, especially my own. Calvin brought me to my knees on depravity itself and when I could no longer deny the biblical view of what I was without Christ all the rest just fell into place. Some months later reading Van Til, he took me by the back of my neck and pushed my face into the corresponding corruption of reason resulting FROM this depravity. It rocked my understanding of EVERYTHING.

Agree or not you have been seeing the resulting Christian philosophy in everything I’ve typed in this thread from the first post denying that sinners and saints are alike capable of embracing biblical truth drawn from natural revelation. You are talking to dead people who until quickened by the resurrected life of the living Christ bought with His blood, are laboring with ears that do not hear and eyes that do not see. Hearts DEAD in trespasses and sins.

I stand by that assessment and am witnessing the latest round of proof right here in this thread.

352

[quote]

Yeah, but, pretty much admittedly, you are not going to see a miracle in any event, no matter how grand. [/quote]

BINGO. I can’t be bothered with someone who refuses to see G-d’s work. That’s between them and G-d.

I do wish atheists would leave religious people to our devices. The most “evangelistic” and intolerant group of people this side of radical Islamists are secular atheists.

The irrational hatred of atheists like modern communists (e.g., Stalin) of religious people (and, in particular Jewish people) is rather telling.

353

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Just curious if you knew that the first Catholics were Jewish people. I am a Jewish/Catholic (not that one parent is Jewish and the other is Catholic), and am not a gentile. Kinda hard to explain as I am still learning it myself, but as it was explained to me. Ancestors came from Judea, but the family did the early Church thing and we’ve been in it since. Plus the various Jewish families we have married into and are my direct ancestors. [/quote]

I am aware that many early Christians were Jewish, yes. Indeed, there is a small movement in Israel among Jewish people to adopt Christianity and keep Jewish practices, apparently true to this early church(aka “Messianic Jews”).

I served with several in the IDF. Motivated, committed, zionists. One was a Sephardi from Texas. Spectacular sniper.

I have no beef with the modern Roman Church.

Chrisitanity, in most all its denominations, including the Roman Church, is considered by most Jewish people to be an excellent, if not the most excellent, religion for non-Jewish persons.

I do look back at the historical pogroms, forced conversions, expulsions, Inquisitions, and kidnapping of Jewish children with forced baptism (e.g., the kidnapping of Edgardo Mortara in 1858, where a maid “baptised” the infant child of Jewish family she was mad at, which resulted in the child being focibly abducted from the parents by the Papal States) with a rather jaded eye.

That’s a long history of treating Jewish people rather poorly.

But its in the past, as far as I am concerned.

354

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

Can we start with some examples of modern miracles then and at least try to have something that doesn-t have an easily explained mechanism behind it?[/quote]

I missed you asking for a modern example. So I apologize for not replying.

I will be the first to tell you that I do not understand why God heals people miraculously and others he does not. Jesus did not heal everyone in Israel. Jesus could have said everyone in Israel is healed, and it would have been so, but he only healed the ones that had faith that he could heal them. They physically come to him to be healed.

I had a friend in college, still my friend by the way, made his living singing. He went in for a scope of his vocal cords because it hurt to sing. He had a bump on his vocal cord, and it was biopsied. They found it was cancer, and told him to come back in for another scope. Myself, and a group of friends prayed for him. He went back in and when they scoped him again the bump was gone. Completely gone. The doctors could not explain it. It was written of by some as a bad first scope, and that the pathologist had the wrong sample, to many other things, but my friend and I know it was a miracle.

Many Medical Doctors, MD, have stories of these types of miracles happening all the time in hospitals. MD’s have a tendency to have some tie to Religion, because they understand there is something beyond just the medication working. If it was just the medication then all patients would be healed not just a percentage.

Another miracle are the random things that happen to discover a cure of a disease. The inventor of pennicelen, my spelling is bad, used mold that grew on cheese. Who would have thought to eat the green nasty looking hair on cheese to kill bacteria?

There are many miracles that are never seen, that happen every day. Most people discount them as just coincedences, but IMO they are not. There are many miracles that happen and you do not even see them. Sometimes they save a life, sometimes they may keep a fire from happening in a house, or your child from falling down the stairs. Maybe you not dropping the weight on your throat because your spotter actually was paying attention even though you had lifted that 225 lbs many times before. Maybe you thought to drive the speed limit today and the cop was just on the other side of the hill. Miracles do not have to be big, like raising someone from the dead, but can be a small like a smile from your 6 week old child, or your child just saying I Love You out of the blue.

355

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

Look, you will never see me say there is no god. There could well be a god, I find it unlikely but obviously not impossible. My view is that I am yet to encounter anything that either cannot be explained without recourse to a god or at least has no hint of an explanation that would therefore necessitate a god. Even if I were to encounter something like that, my first recourse would be to assume that either more data or more time to think was needed. The system works perfectly well without a god so why assume a god? [/quote]

Talk to a person who has seen a miracle and you will know someone who has encountered at the very least a god.
[/quote]

OK, give me an example of a miracle then.[/quote]

Typically, G-d uses miracles in Judaism to give a given person the “street credibility” that he is a representative of G-d. Example, Elisha dividing water or Moses turning a rod into a snake, etc.

Modern miracles are often more subtle.

One miracle, to me, at least, has been the continued existance of the Jewish people as a people and the re-assembly of Israel in Israel.

The scattering and near-destruction of my people has been foretold some 3,500 years ago.

Basically every major power has attempted to eliminate us: Babylonians, Pagan Romans, Papal States (with forced conversions and kidnapping of children), various pogroms in Russia, Germany, England, et al, Hitler, Stalin, modern muslim nations.

There is NOTHING special about my people. We are not bigger, stronger, faster, or more numerous.

And yet we remain while most all on that list are nothing but dust.

And not only have we remained, but have somehow managed to be at the turning points of civilization:

from Chris Columbus (yeah, his mother was Jewish, so he’s Jewish),
to Leanardo DaVinci
To ending WWI for England by inventing certain explosives
To ending WWII for the Allies by inventing nukes
To Jonas Salk (vaccines)

Even Christianity (while the theology is certainly disagreed with by Jewish people) follows the core philosophical and ethical guidelines set forth in Judaism (and, more precisely Rabbi Hillel, who first espoused the “Golden Rule — love thy neighbor as thyself” about a century before Christianity came about. (Indeed, the entire Sermon on the Mount is highly derivative of Rabbi Hillel’s teachings.)

Christianity changed the world, generally for the better.

However imperfectly, Judeo-Christian ethics are the ethics of the modern world, or at least the goal.

It staggers me that a completely insignificant semi-migratory tribe from the backwaters of Judea — has played such a vital part in civilization.

There is no rhyme or reason for us to have played the role we have played in the world, but that G-d picked up and decided that he would use this least-of-the-peoples in the world as evidence of Him.

Our existence is a miracle.

And it is also why truly evil people – Hitler, Stalin — seek to destroy Jewish people first, as they are rebelling against G-d Himself.

[/quote]

Not really a miracle though because you can explain it perfectly without recourse to the mystical.

A group of people that has a common belief and suffers a lot of hardship, they use that hardship to draw strength and also draw themselves together, supporting each other in whatever community they arrive in, lending money to start up businesses, giving emotional and physical support. Due to the wandering nature there are Jewish communities pretty much everywhere therefore there is a good chance that there will be Jewish people involved in many of modern history’s important moments.[/quote]

Yeah, but, pretty much admittedly, you are not going to see a miracle in any event, no matter how grand. [/quote]

Can we start with some examples of modern miracles then and at least try to have something that doesn-t have an easily explained mechanism behind it?[/quote]

Well you could look at all the people that have had tumors, &c. that after being prayed over disappear from x-rays, MRI’s, &c.

You could look at the Nun who was cured of Parkinson’s disease after asking John Paul II to pray for her illness.[/quote]

OK now we are talking. Please post links to where I can see the evidence of these miracles. If it’s happening a lot, that should be easy right?

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[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]

Yeah, but, pretty much admittedly, you are not going to see a miracle in any event, no matter how grand. [/quote]

BINGO. I can’t be bothered with someone who refuses to see G-d’s work. That’s between them and G-d.

I do wish atheists would leave religious people to our devices. The most “evangelistic” and intolerant group of people this side of radical Islamists are secular atheists.

The irrational hatred of atheists like modern communists (e.g., Stalin) of religious people (and, in particular Jewish people) is rather telling.[/quote]

I don’t refuse to see it at all, I look for it and it isn’t there. I am very open to someone throwing up an example (with some sort of proof) of a miracle happening that has no obvious mechanism.

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[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

Can we start with some examples of modern miracles then and at least try to have something that doesn-t have an easily explained mechanism behind it?[/quote]

I missed you asking for a modern example. So I apologize for not replying.

I will be the first to tell you that I do not understand why God heals people miraculously and others he does not. Jesus did not heal everyone in Israel. Jesus could have said everyone in Israel is healed, and it would have been so, but he only healed the ones that had faith that he could heal them. They physically come to him to be healed.

I had a friend in college, still my friend by the way, made his living singing. He went in for a scope of his vocal cords because it hurt to sing. He had a bump on his vocal cord, and it was biopsied. They found it was cancer, and told him to come back in for another scope. Myself, and a group of friends prayed for him. He went back in and when they scoped him again the bump was gone. Completely gone. The doctors could not explain it. It was written of by some as a bad first scope, and that the pathologist had the wrong sample, to many other things, but my friend and I know it was a miracle.

Many Medical Doctors, MD, have stories of these types of miracles happening all the time in hospitals. MD’s have a tendency to have some tie to Religion, because they understand there is something beyond just the medication working. If it was just the medication then all patients would be healed not just a percentage.

Another miracle are the random things that happen to discover a cure of a disease. The inventor of pennicelen, my spelling is bad, used mold that grew on cheese. Who would have thought to eat the green nasty looking hair on cheese to kill bacteria?

There are many miracles that are never seen, that happen every day. Most people discount them as just coincedences, but IMO they are not. There are many miracles that happen and you do not even see them. Sometimes they save a life, sometimes they may keep a fire from happening in a house, or your child from falling down the stairs. Maybe you not dropping the weight on your throat because your spotter actually was paying attention even though you had lifted that 225 lbs many times before. Maybe you thought to drive the speed limit today and the cop was just on the other side of the hill. Miracles do not have to be big, like raising someone from the dead, but can be a small like a smile from your 6 week old child, or your child just saying I Love You out of the blue.[/quote]

So even the doctors were saying that it was down to a bad scope on the first bioposy. And they are the experts on this and obviously see this happen repeatedly yet instead of believing them, you decide it must have been God because obviously you prayed better and your friend was more worthy than the thousands of people who die each year wracked with pain from throat cancer.

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[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

Can we start with some examples of modern miracles then and at least try to have something that doesn-t have an easily explained mechanism behind it?[/quote]

I missed you asking for a modern example. So I apologize for not replying.

I will be the first to tell you that I do not understand why God heals people miraculously and others he does not. Jesus did not heal everyone in Israel. Jesus could have said everyone in Israel is healed, and it would have been so, but he only healed the ones that had faith that he could heal them. They physically come to him to be healed.

I had a friend in college, still my friend by the way, made his living singing. He went in for a scope of his vocal cords because it hurt to sing. He had a bump on his vocal cord, and it was biopsied. They found it was cancer, and told him to come back in for another scope. Myself, and a group of friends prayed for him. He went back in and when they scoped him again the bump was gone. Completely gone. The doctors could not explain it. It was written of by some as a bad first scope, and that the pathologist had the wrong sample, to many other things, but my friend and I know it was a miracle.

Many Medical Doctors, MD, have stories of these types of miracles happening all the time in hospitals. MD’s have a tendency to have some tie to Religion, because they understand there is something beyond just the medication working. If it was just the medication then all patients would be healed not just a percentage.[/quote]

But yet God routinely - always, in fact - chooses to ignore the prayers from those who literally have zero medical treatment or physiological mechanisms at their disposal that can be used to fix or cure their malady or handicap.

And your first guess as to why medications affect people differently is God and not genetics, the progression of the disease, other medically significant (and recognized, if not completely understood) variables?

At least in the case of your friend we can rely on the concrete fact that no medical professional has ever misdiagnosed a disease and are collectively infallible in their organizational behaviors and analysis of samples.

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Another miracle are the random things that happen to discover a cure of a disease. The inventor of pennicelen, my spelling is bad, used mold that grew on cheese. Who would have thought to eat the green nasty looking hair on cheese to kill bacteria?[/quote]

Well, the Serbians and Greeks routinely used moldy bread as a means to treat infected wounds. Mold was also used by the Egyptians and Indians for this same purpose.

The history of antibiotics didn’t exactly begin with Fleming, and scientific breakthroughs rarely happen without the “inventor” having stood on the shoulders of giants during his/her “Eureka!” moment.

It just makes the story a little more interesting.

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
There are many miracles that are never seen, that happen every day. Most people discount them as just coincedences, but IMO they are not. There are many miracles that happen and you do not even see them. Sometimes they save a life, sometimes they may keep a fire from happening in a house, or your child from falling down the stairs. Maybe you not dropping the weight on your throat because your spotter actually was paying attention even though you had lifted that 225 lbs many times before. Maybe you thought to drive the speed limit today and the cop was just on the other side of the hill. Miracles do not have to be big, like raising someone from the dead, but can be a small like a smile from your 6 week old child, or your child just saying I Love You out of the blue.[/quote]

God cares more about your car insurance rates than he does people who have become crippled or disfigured for life - not uncommonly the result of an action meant to help another or further a just cause?

Is it a commonly accepted practice to throw the term ‘miracle’ around this loosely?

359

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Well you could look at all the people that have had tumors, &c. that after being prayed over disappear from x-rays, MRI’s, &c.

You could look at the Nun who was cured of Parkinson’s disease after asking John Paul II to pray for her illness.[/quote]

OK now we are talking. Please post links to where I can see the evidence of these miracles. If it’s happening a lot, that should be easy right?[/quote]

While I am sure that most people who are diagnosed with cancer find themselves leaning towards religion awfully quick, I would love to see evidence that everyone who has experienced spontaneous remission of their cancers achieved this with prayer instead of modern medicinal practices or other plausible reasons.

Even so, the fact that we do not understand how this occurs doesn’t mean that there isn’t a physiological explanation. In fact, I believe that scientists are currently pursuing hormonal and immunological treatments to cancer based off the evidence seen from these remissions/regressions (eg, these remissions have occasionally been found to coincide with the development of an infection - suggesting that these infections lead to a hyperactive immune system that turns itself on the cancerous cells as well as the primary infection).

This was showcased in an episode of House (“House vs. God”, or something - the one with the teenage faith healer). But, again, this begs the question as to why God sees it fit to only intervene in situations where the end result is the product of an ambiguous cause.

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[quote]anonym wrote:
<<< God cares more about your car insurance rates than he does people who have become crippled or disfigured for life - not uncommonly the result of an action meant to help another or further a just cause? >>>[/quote]
God cares most about displaying His own power and glory before His creation in ways and times that are perfect in His own providence to Himself. All else is subservient to and ordered toward that end. He owes no creature anything. Not life, not food, not health, not healing, nothing. In the case of man who stands guilty of eternally capital crimes, God owes him an eternally capital sentence.

The fact that He has satisfied His own justice regarding some of them so that they not only escape that sentence, but are infinitely blessed in the process is reason for immediate adoring prostration before His throne. When, how, in what cases or whether at all He decides to perform what are wonders to us, is His business for the purposes already mentioned. We are back to the old adage.

In the eyes of unbelief no evidence will ever suffice anyway and to the heart of faith none is necessary. Yep, from where you sit that is a cop out. I would be foolish to pretend otherwise.