Misconceptions of Christianity 2

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Does anyone believe God can heal people with various injuries or diseases?

If so, why is there no recorded instance of someone regenerating an arm from prayer or someone with Down Syndrome be cured? Why is it only diseases or illnesses that can be cured “naturally” the ones that are always used as proof that prayer works?[/quote]
There is a man in my congregation who claims that his leg(one leg was shorter than the other so he had to wear special shoes) was healed(lengthened) with the laying of hands and prayer(Not those scams artist on tv where they deceive people for their money). I believe God does impossible things all the time, just that people don’t give him the credit.[/quote]

Did he actually measure his legs and saw the difference? Or perhaps he just adjusted to the shortness and it was no longer bothering him (hence cured in his mind).
[/quote]
Ill have to ask him this weekend.

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
All those in the church are one body in Christ so there will be some elders, deacons and preachers etc…

…so why should there be hierarchy among the people themselves except for having God as their master…[/quote]

“Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders (presbyteroi) of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.”
James 5:14-15

It is apparent that there were different stations (as you’ve named) with different duties (as we in the above verse.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
All those in the church are one body in Christ so there will be some elders, deacons and preachers etc…

…so why should there be hierarchy among the people themselves except for having God as their master…[/quote]

“Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders (presbyteroi) of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.”
James 5:14-15

It is apparent that there were different stations (as you’ve named) with different duties (as we in the above verse.[/quote]

Sloth, I agree with you on this, but it does not only happen in the RCC. Every denomination of Christianity has some sort of Hierarchy. We have preachers, teachers, deacons, elders, laity, evangelists, administrators, and many others. We do not have Cardinals though or the Pope, so by not having these 2 positions does not make us the church?

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Does anyone believe God can heal people with various injuries or diseases?

If so, why is there no recorded instance of someone regenerating an arm from prayer or someone with Down Syndrome be cured? Why is it only diseases or illnesses that can be cured “naturally” the ones that are always used as proof that prayer works?[/quote]

yawn.[/quote]

But it’s true, pat. It seems like “God” can only heal injuries that the body can normally heal itself. But when tasked with something the body cannot normally heal, why is there no evidence for this?[/quote]

Did you even bother to look?

@ D and Joab:

I don’t know catholicism like the catholics here do and I accordingly don’t wanna sound like a know it all, but you are not grasping what they mean by “ministerial priesthood” and succession backward into the NT era. I will throw out, as I did to you D that this concept, while wrong, is not instantly dismissible as idiotic.

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Been through it, his arguments are weak and pathetic and he’s just picking on a poor dumb guy. I could wipe the floor with this moron as I did last time somebody posted this idiotic video argument for atheism.

Go check back in one of the other hundred religion threads…It’s there like 30 times.[/quote]
[/quote]
Ha, yeah it’s going to be hard to find that with all these religious threads lately. What was your main argument against the video?[/quote]

If I am not mistaken, he was arguing that God must not exist because God was a big meany in the bible and he feels more moral than God.
He took things out of context and even if God was a big meany, it still doesn’t prove he does not exist.

No, I am not going to torture myself by watching it again, it’s just not worth it.

The quintessential question will always be existence came from nothing or it came from something. ← Yes, it really is that simple.
Theists believe the former, athiests believe the latter. It is actually quite impressive the lengths athiests have gone to prove existence from nothing. If have the theists put that much effort into their faith as the atheists do, the world would be a much different place

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
@ D and Joab:

I don’t know catholicism like the catholics here do and I accordingly don’t wanna sound like a know it all, but you are not grasping what they mean by “ministerial priesthood” and succession backward into the NT era. I will throw out, as I did to you D that this concept, while wrong, is not instantly dismissible as idiotic.[/quote]

If I am wrong please correct me, but I was under the impression that Apostolic Succession only applies to the Pope. I understand the idea of apostolic succession, but do not understand how it is put into practice. Each Pope is not discipled by the previous Pope as Peter was discipled by Jesus.

I forgot to add, that the ministerial priesthood also has a succession?

http://www.katu.com/news/52798457.html?tab=video
This is a miracle to me, although I have to agree with pat that its impossible to prove a miracle over the internet and agree with tirib that if one is spiritually dead, no miracle no matter how proven(ex. universe spoken into existence from nothing) or great it is will convince one. Even though one may consider the healing of injuries or recovering from illnesses as natural and not miraculous, I don’t see it that way since I don’t believe in a God of the gaps. I believe he is involved in all processes even the ones we somewhat know about(healing of bones, immune system etc…).

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
@ D and Joab:

I don’t know catholicism like the catholics here do and I accordingly don’t wanna sound like a know it all, but you are not grasping what they mean by “ministerial priesthood” and succession backward into the NT era. I will throw out, as I did to you D that this concept, while wrong, is not instantly dismissible as idiotic.[/quote]

If I am wrong please correct me, but I was under the impression that Apostolic Succession only applies to the Pope. I understand the idea of apostolic succession, but do not understand how it is put into practice. Each Pope is not discipled by the previous Pope as Peter was discipled by Jesus.

I forgot to add, that the ministerial priesthood also has a succession?[/quote]As an authoritative institution, not necessarily man for man like the pope. They can also correct me if I’m wrong.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Does anyone believe God can heal people with various injuries or diseases?

If so, why is there no recorded instance of someone regenerating an arm from prayer or someone with Down Syndrome be cured? Why is it only diseases or illnesses that can be cured “naturally” the ones that are always used as proof that prayer works?[/quote]

yawn.[/quote]

But it’s true, pat. It seems like “God” can only heal injuries that the body can normally heal itself. But when tasked with something the body cannot normally heal, why is there no evidence for this?[/quote]

Did you even bother to look?
[/quote]

Yes, did you?

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
http://www.katu.com/news/52798457.html?tab=video
This is a miracle to me, although I have to agree with pat that its impossible to prove a miracle over the internet and agree with tirib that if one is spiritually dead, no miracle no matter how proven(ex. universe spoken into existence from nothing) or great it is will convince one. Even though one may consider the healing of injuries or recovering from illnesses as natural and not miraculous, I don’t see it that way since I don’t believe in a God of the gaps. I believe he is involved in all processes even the ones we somewhat know about(healing of bones, immune system etc…).[/quote]

That’s a great video! Very much enjoyed it. I wonder if the “dizziness” he was experiencing had something to do with this medically. Perhaps he had some blockage near his eyes that were compressing the nerves that was being released by his body? I’m not exactly sure.

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
<<< Healing >>>
[/quote]
About 80% of the way down the page.
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/misconceptions_of_christianity?id=3923963&pageNo=12

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< All men of good will are pleasing to God and will be welcomed by him. >>>[/quote]
ENCYCLICAL ON RELIGIOUS UNITY - FROM POPE PIUS XI - January 6, 1928: MORTALIUM ANIMOS (mortali1.htm)

[quote]<<< 2. A similar object is aimed at by some, in those matters which concern the New Law promulgated by Christ our Lord. For since they hold it for certain that men destitute of all religious sense are very rarely to be found, they seem to have founded on that belief a hope that the nations, although they differ among themselves in certain religious matters, will without much difficulty come to agree as brethren in professing certain doctrines, which form as it were a common basis of the spiritual life. For which reason conventions, meetings and addresses are frequently arranged by these persons, at which a large number of listeners are present, and at which all without distinction are invited to join in the discussion, both infidels of every kind, and Christians, even those who have unhappily fallen away from Christ or who with obstinacy and pertinacity deny His divine nature and mission. Certainly such attempts can nowise be approved by Catholics, founded as they are on that false opinion which considers all religions to be more or less good and praiseworthy, since they all in different ways manifest and signify that sense which is inborn in us all, and by which we are led to God and to the obedient acknowledgment of His rule. Not only are those who hold this opinion in error and deceived, but also in distorting the idea of true religion they reject it, and little by little. turn aside to naturalism and atheism, as it is called; from which it clearly follows that one who supports those who hold these theories and attempt to realize them, is altogether abandoning the divinely revealed religion. >>>[/quote]My how God changed His mind at Vatican II. BTW, the anathemas of Trent were most assuredly condemning people just like me to hell, do not pass purgatory, do not collect 200 indulgences. If I have not committed and am not willfully persisting in mortal sin. Then who is? I have deliberately declared the “the one true most holy apostolic church” a “tool of Satan”. I have done so with full knowledge of the grave import of such a statement. I with great sorrow and a heavy heart do nonetheless stand by that statement. Your church pronounces me as of this minute outside of saving grace and as one who will suffer eternal damnation should I fail to repent before my death. No sincere “act of contrition” will be forthcoming. Now grow a pair and agree with your church. I would… if I were Roman catholic.
[/quote]

You being fulll of shit and overly dramatic. As explain from the Catholic encyclopedia ‘anathema’ was used as a term to mean “out of communion” or state of excommunication. I even gave the link. You are just trying to be overly dramatic.
You are not calling the Church a tool of satan with heavy heart, you are doing it for effect and I gather to get me and others riled up. If we are tool of satan, you lot are his footstool.

You repeat the same lies over and over again and quite simply you do not know what the fuck you are talking about, if you did you would not say what you didâ?¦From the Catechism on the matter:
817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Toward unity

820 "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279
On non-Christian religions:
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

This is the stance of the Church. I suggest you educate yourself on the church and history lest you say more dumb things that are absolutely false…

or I’ll see if I can find some “We hate Catholics” websites for you so you can coalesce more hate filled vitriol.

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
@ D and Joab:

I don’t know catholicism like the catholics here do and I accordingly don’t wanna sound like a know it all, but you are not grasping what they mean by “ministerial priesthood” and succession backward into the NT era. I will throw out, as I did to you D that this concept, while wrong, is not instantly dismissible as idiotic.[/quote]

If I am wrong please correct me, but I was under the impression that Apostolic Succession only applies to the Pope. I understand the idea of apostolic succession, but do not understand how it is put into practice. Each Pope is not discipled by the previous Pope as Peter was discipled by Jesus.

I forgot to add, that the ministerial priesthood also has a succession?[/quote]

The bishops are the apostolic successors. The Pope is also a bishop. Priests are ordained by bishops, but the priestly ministry is not itself in line with the apostolic successions.

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Does anyone believe God can heal people with various injuries or diseases?

If so, why is there no recorded instance of someone regenerating an arm from prayer or someone with Down Syndrome be cured? Why is it only diseases or illnesses that can be cured “naturally” the ones that are always used as proof that prayer works?[/quote]

yawn.[/quote]

But it’s true, pat. It seems like “God” can only heal injuries that the body can normally heal itself. But when tasked with something the body cannot normally heal, why is there no evidence for this?[/quote]

Did you even bother to look?
[/quote]

Yes, did you?[/quote]

No, but I don’t care, your the one whom it bothers. I have been around miracles before. I know they happen.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
@ D and Joab:

I don’t know catholicism like the catholics here do and I accordingly don’t wanna sound like a know it all, but you are not grasping what they mean by “ministerial priesthood” and succession backward into the NT era. I will throw out, as I did to you D that this concept, while wrong, is not instantly dismissible as idiotic.[/quote]

If I am wrong please correct me, but I was under the impression that Apostolic Succession only applies to the Pope. I understand the idea of apostolic succession, but do not understand how it is put into practice. Each Pope is not discipled by the previous Pope as Peter was discipled by Jesus.

I forgot to add, that the ministerial priesthood also has a succession?[/quote]

The bishops are the apostolic successors. The Pope is also a bishop. Priests are ordained by bishops, but the priestly ministry is not itself in line with the apostolic successions.[/quote]

But Priests become Bishops do they not? The Pope is a Bishop and a Cardinal? What is the difference between a Cardinal and a Bishop.

Sorry to get into this, because I am about to leave work and go on vacation for a week, and will most likely not post for that amount of time. I will miss everyones conversations, and will be praying for you all. God Bless.

Here Tirib more hate sites for you to pull BS talking points…

This guy stole you exact talking points…He’s full of shit too…

another:

http://www.bible.ca/catholic-questions.htm

here are some more:

Hope at least this gives you some new talking points instead of regurgitating the same junk over and over.

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
@ D and Joab:

I don’t know catholicism like the catholics here do and I accordingly don’t wanna sound like a know it all, but you are not grasping what they mean by “ministerial priesthood” and succession backward into the NT era. I will throw out, as I did to you D that this concept, while wrong, is not instantly dismissible as idiotic.[/quote]

If I am wrong please correct me, but I was under the impression that Apostolic Succession only applies to the Pope. I understand the idea of apostolic succession, but do not understand how it is put into practice. Each Pope is not discipled by the previous Pope as Peter was discipled by Jesus.

I forgot to add, that the ministerial priesthood also has a succession?[/quote]

The bishops are the apostolic successors. The Pope is also a bishop. Priests are ordained by bishops, but the priestly ministry is not itself in line with the apostolic successions.[/quote]

But Priests become Bishops do they not? The Pope is a Bishop and a Cardinal? What is the difference between a Cardinal and a Bishop.

Sorry to get into this, because I am about to leave work and go on vacation for a week, and will most likely not post for that amount of time. I will miss everyones conversations, and will be praying for you all. God Bless.[/quote]

Yes, priests become bishops, but not all it’s not like a career where you climb the ladder. Cardinals are bishops but over larger regions. They are the regional bishops’ boss and the pope is their boss.

[quote]pat wrote:
Here Tirib more hate sites for you to pull BS talking points…

This guy stole you exact talking points…He’s full of shit too…

another:

http://www.bible.ca/catholic-questions.htm

here are some more:

Hope at least this gives you some new talking points instead of regurgitating the same junk over and over.
[/quote]

Are all the points BS or just some of them?

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< You are not calling the Church a tool of satan with heavy heart, you are doing it for effect and I gather to get me and others riled up. If we are tool of satan, you lot are his footstool. >>>[/quote] Funny how you think you know my heart now when a minute ago nobody could do that. You are dead wrong Pat. Go ahead and call me liar, I have not done that to you. I said nothing here for the purpose of getting anybody riled up. NOTHING. I have repeatedly stated that I like all you guys and I meant it and still do.

I have just been reminded of a scheduling change at our house I forgot about. I’ll have to finish this later