Michael Moore Has Failed

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Schlenkatank wrote:
Well, I wish I had time to dig up some census info, but obviously most violence in the u.s. occurs in urban areas. Violence can certainly be minimally defined by the number of murders per capita. I’m sorry to say that ours are around a 1,000 times higher than other similar countries. We are in fact higher than any other nation in that statistic by far.

So then we should all be defined by collective statistics? How are these statistics relevant to the individual?[/quote]

Umm, as an individual your risk of getting shot in the head is more than 1,000 times higher in the u.s. than in canada.

Obviously not everyone gets shot in the head or killed in some way, but every u.s. citizen has a role and is affected by the meaning of this statistic in some way. It implies that for some reason violence plays a huge role in our culture. That was the focus of Bowling For Columbine.

62

One thing that struck me about the stats Moore quoted in “Bowling” was that they were totals…not rates.

Of fucking course fewer people are murdered in Denmark than in America. I needed a fat guy in a hat to tell me that?

63

[quote]Schlenkatank wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Schlenkatank wrote:
Well, I wish I had time to dig up some census info, but obviously most violence in the u.s. occurs in urban areas. Violence can certainly be minimally defined by the number of murders per capita. I’m sorry to say that ours are around a 1,000 times higher than other similar countries. We are in fact higher than any other nation in that statistic by far.

So then we should all be defined by collective statistics? How are these statistics relevant to the individual?

Umm, as an individual your risk of getting shot in the head is more than 1,000 times higher in the u.s. than in canada.

Obviously not everyone gets shot in the head or killed in some way, but every u.s. citizen has a role and is affected by the meaning of this statistic in some way. It implies that for some reason violence plays a huge role in our culture. That was the focus of Bowling For Columbine.[/quote]

Statistics aren’t real. They are just abstractions of data. They have no bearing on the future.

64

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
One thing that struck me about the stats Moore quoted in “Bowling” was that they were totals…not rates.

Of fucking course fewer people are murdered in Denmark than in America. I needed a fat guy in a hat to tell me that?[/quote]

LOL!

65

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
I saw the movie this past weekend. I had to hold back my disgust at points, because he is calling Capitalism the reason for the bailout/mortgage meltdown/basic financial mess we are in. But this is false, because it is not Capitalism itself, but those that are so greedy that they used dishonest practices to make money.

There is nothing wrong with good honest business being done, and usually these are the businesses that last the test of time. But when you have sharks in the water, someone is going to be eaten eventually. He uses examples that are, quite honestly, sad but stupid.

SPOILER

In one segment, he interviews someone who had their house in their family for 40 yrs, and lost it by taking out an equity loan on the house. They could not afford the payments and lost the home. Well, my personal opinion is, that you should know better. You should know what you can and cannot afford, and you should be able to spot a shark as well. But Moore goes into the refi scam, which was based on “how can you get someone who owns their home out of their home.” And that was with tempting them to refi their home. Terms like, “own the home of your dreams” or " get that kitchen remodel you’ve always wanted" were painted by Moore as the greed behind the scam.

Look, the bottom line is this…You need to be your own watchdog, because we have serious grade A assholes in the world who have no problem taking everything from you causing you to rot with nothing. Not all people are like this, but they do exist, and you have to be aware of them the same way you need to be your own doctor to a certain extent.

He points out how nearly all of our government people working in the treasury or finance are former Goldman Sachs people. This is nothing new, as Geithner was the uber idiot who made every wrong decision and was chosen by Obama for a reason. And that is because while he makes the wrong decision, he is making the decisions that bankers want. [/quote]

Thanks for the info. I thought he was going after crony capitalism (the political cartel of the Fed, Kongress, and Wall Street) rather than capitalism. It appears he’s just grinding another Marxist axe, so I’ll stay home from the movie.

66

[quote]Schlenkatank wrote:

Well, I wish I had time to dig up some census info, but obviously most violence in the u.s. occurs in urban areas. [/quote]

Newspeak alert! Those areas are also “diverse” and “vibrant.”

67

I was really appalled with the segment with the refi scam. I thought in my head, “weren’t these people aware that this is basically just another form of a loan but with your house being collateral?” People will always try to scam you, that is the nature of greed, but that doesn’t mean the system as a whole is flawed.

68

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Schlenkatank wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Schlenkatank wrote:

Statistics aren’t real. They are just abstractions of data. They have no bearing on the future.[/quote]

What? Actually, it looks like the murder rates are going to stay the way they are for a while.

69

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
One thing that struck me about the stats Moore quoted in “Bowling” was that they were totals…not rates.

Of fucking course fewer people are murdered in Denmark than in America. I needed a fat guy in a hat to tell me that?[/quote]

Yes that’s true, and i don’t think he mentioned that in the documentary. However, looking at the data shows that the u.s. has one of the highest murder rates per capita as well. It has the highest rate by far out of any developed nation.

70

[quote]Schlenkatank wrote:
Stronghold wrote:
One thing that struck me about the stats Moore quoted in “Bowling” was that they were totals…not rates.

Of fucking course fewer people are murdered in Denmark than in America. I needed a fat guy in a hat to tell me that?

Yes that’s true, and i don’t think he mentioned that in the documentary. However, looking at the data shows that the u.s. has one of the highest murder rates per capita as well. It has the highest rate by far out of any developed nation.[/quote]

He said “Canada has only gun 60 murders per year! America has 11,000!” and left out the part where Canada has roughly one 12th the number of people living there. It’s not like this isn’t obvious stuff or something, you know he looked at that and went “I bet the people who paid money to watch this movie won’t catch that, let me use the distorted number to inflate my argument.”

He also spent a good amount of time trying to ridicule responsible gun owning Americans (members of a local, nonviolent, militia-style organization) and put them in the same category as a nerdy teenager with the Anarchist’s Cookbook and that Nichols wingnut whose brother blew up the OKC Federal Building. If I remember correctly, he even asked one of the people he was interviewing “Why do you need guns? Why can’t you just call the police?”

Un. Fucking. Real.

71

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
Schlenkatank wrote:
Stronghold wrote:

He also spent a good amount of time trying to ridicule responsible gun owning Americans (members of a local, nonviolent, militia-style organization) and put them in the same category as a nerdy teenager with the Anarchist’s Cookbook and that Nichols wingnut whose brother blew up the OKC Federal Building. If I remember correctly, he even asked one of the people he was interviewing “Why do you need guns? Why can’t you just call the police?”

Un. Fucking. Real.[/quote]

I think the important thing about that statistic is that our murder rates are shockingly high. We have the highest murder rate per capita of any developed nation. Because that’s true, it’s not outrageous that he used the other statistic to make his point.

Moore is a gun owning citizen. He is also a member of the NRA. He was not trying to ridicule “honest gun owning citizens” at all in the documentary or group our culture into one mindless gun owning society. Rather he tried very hard to show the values and tendencies that exist in our society that cause violence. When he asked very simple questions like “why do you need guns” he got very interesting answers from citizens. Some people said thing like “because anyone can break into your house, even you Mr. Moore”. He was not implying that gun ownership is bad, but trying to discover what is causing more Americans to shoot other citizens than any other developed nation in the world.

What he definitely wanted to show was captured fairly well in this quote.

Marilyn Manson: … the media wants to take it and spin it, and turn it into fear, because then you’re watching television, you’re watching the news, you’re being pumped full of fear, there’s floods, there’s AIDS, there’s murder, cut to commercial, buy the Acura, buy the Colgate, if you have bad breath they’re not going to talk to you, if you have pimples, the girl’s not going to fuck you, and it’s just this campaign of fear, and consumption, and that’s what I think it’s all based on, the whole idea of 'keep everyone afraid…

Digest that if you will.

72

[quote]Schlenkatank wrote:
Stronghold wrote:
Schlenkatank wrote:
Stronghold wrote:

He also spent a good amount of time trying to ridicule responsible gun owning Americans (members of a local, nonviolent, militia-style organization) and put them in the same category as a nerdy teenager with the Anarchist’s Cookbook and that Nichols wingnut whose brother blew up the OKC Federal Building. If I remember correctly, he even asked one of the people he was interviewing “Why do you need guns? Why can’t you just call the police?”

Un. Fucking. Real.

I think the important thing about that statistic is that our murder rates are shockingly high. We have the highest murder rate per capita of any developed nation. Because that’s true, it’s not outrageous that he used the other statistic to make his point.

Moore is a gun owning citizen. He is also a member of the NRA. He was not trying to ridicule “honest gun owning citizens” at all in the documentary or group our culture into one mindless gun owning society. Rather he tried very hard to show the values and tendencies that exist in our society that cause violence. When he asked very simple questions like “why do you need guns” he got very interesting answers from citizens. Some people said thing like “because anyone can break into your house, even you Mr. Moore”. He was not implying that gun ownership is bad, but trying to discover what is causing more Americans to shoot other citizens than any other developed nation in the world.

What he definitely wanted to show was captured fairly well in this quote.

Marilyn Manson: … the media wants to take it and spin it, and turn it into fear, because then you’re watching television, you’re watching the news, you’re being pumped full of fear, there’s floods, there’s AIDS, there’s murder, cut to commercial, buy the Acura, buy the Colgate, if you have bad breath they’re not going to talk to you, if you have pimples, the girl’s not going to fuck you, and it’s just this campaign of fear, and consumption, and that’s what I think it’s all based on, the whole idea of 'keep everyone afraid…

Digest that if you will.[/quote]

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MDQzMTYxOGIzZTkxNmFmZDRhMzI5MDRlYzA1OTc2MzE=

That pretty accurately sums up all of Michael Moore’s “points”.

73

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
<<< article.nationalreview.com/?q=MDQzMTYxOGIzZTkxNmFmZDRhMzI5MDRlYzA1OTc2MzE=

That pretty accurately sums up all of Michael Moore’s “points”.[/quote]
Great read.
Like I said Moore is a thoroughly discredited liar and buffoon. Fahrenheit 911 was similarly shredded with it’s overtly faked newspaper headlines, butchered interviews and even going so far as to use a soldier who was injured in an accident and without his permission as an example of Iraq War carnage among other things.

That fact that this guy isn’t laughed out of the country is another indication of how far we’ve fallen.

74

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Stronghold wrote:
<<< article.nationalreview.com/?q=MDQzMTYxOGIzZTkxNmFmZDRhMzI5MDRlYzA1OTc2MzE=

That pretty accurately sums up all of Michael Moore’s “points”.
Great read.
Like I said Moore is a thoroughly discredited liar and buffoon. Fahrenheit 911 was similarly shredded with it’s overtly faked newspaper headlines, butchered interviews and even going so far as to use a soldier who was injured in an accident and without his permission as an example of Iraq War carnage among other things.

That fact that this guy isn’t laughed out of the country is another indication of how far we’ve fallen.[/quote]

He is just too polarizing of an individual that even when his movie might have some good points he just ends up alienating those whose opinions need to be swayed the most.

75

[quote]Schlenkatank wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Schlenkatank wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Schlenkatank wrote:

Statistics aren’t real. They are just abstractions of data. They have no bearing on the future.

What? Actually, it looks like the murder rates are going to stay the way they are for a while. [/quote]

This conversation is totally over your fucking head buddy.

76

Moore cherry picks his numbers to support his point, when those same numbers could be used to discredit him.

The common theme among his movies like Bowling for Columbine and Capitalism are, that it is highly individual how someone acts with their behavior towards a certain act, and no single factor can be used to describe or pigeon-hole that. What I mean is, with Bowling for Columbine, not everyone goes and does what those 2 kids did. Some do, but not all do. I have never known anyone to do anything like that, and hope I never do. With Capitalism, not everyone falls for such stupidity with the scams that banks offer. This is secret, that banks will do what they can to make money. They can use home equity loans, credit card offers with obscene interest penalties, and shark stock brokers who promise the world but deliver little if anything.

Moore fails to inspect or consider personal responsibility with people, and that is why he fails in my opinion. He never asks the person who lost their home with a home equity loan if he could even afford the payment. He didn’t ask if they thought about the idea that they might lose their home if they default. Now, if he did and the person still went through with it, then it is their own fault for knowingly doing it despite the risk.

77

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Moore fails to inspect or consider personal responsibility with people, and that is why he fails in my opinion. He never asks the person who lost their home with a home equity loan if he could even afford the payment. He didn’t ask if they thought about the idea that they might lose their home if they default. Now, if he did and the person still went through with it, then it is their own fault for knowingly doing it despite the risk.[/quote]

Well, duh! We all know that greed never enters the homeowners’ heart – only the Wall Street fat-cats’.

78

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Schlenkatank wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Schlenkatank wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Schlenkatank wrote:

Statistics aren’t real. They are just abstractions of data. They have no bearing on the future.

What? Actually, it looks like the murder rates are going to stay the way they are for a while.

This conversation is totally over your fucking head buddy.[/quote]

I know what you mean but my point is still valid. The data shows that the murder rate per capita is shockingly high. What’s so complicated about that?

79

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Stronghold wrote:
<<< article.nationalreview.com/?q=MDQzMTYxOGIzZTkxNmFmZDRhMzI5MDRlYzA1OTc2MzE=

That pretty accurately sums up all of Michael Moore’s “points”.
Great read.
Like I said Moore is a thoroughly discredited liar and buffoon. Fahrenheit 911 was similarly shredded with it’s overtly faked newspaper headlines, butchered interviews and even going so far as to use a soldier who was injured in an accident and without his permission as an example of Iraq War carnage among other things.

That fact that this guy isn’t laughed out of the country is another indication of how far we’ve fallen.[/quote]

I’m not impressed with a lot of his work. I found enough to chew on in bowling for columbine to satisfy me though.

80

[quote]Schlenkatank wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Stronghold wrote:
<<< article.nationalreview.com/?q=MDQzMTYxOGIzZTkxNmFmZDRhMzI5MDRlYzA1OTc2MzE=

That pretty accurately sums up all of Michael Moore’s “points”.
Great read.
Like I said Moore is a thoroughly discredited liar and buffoon. Fahrenheit 911 was similarly shredded with it’s overtly faked newspaper headlines, butchered interviews and even going so far as to use a soldier who was injured in an accident and without his permission as an example of Iraq War carnage among other things.

That fact that this guy isn’t laughed out of the country is another indication of how far we’ve fallen.

I’m not impressed with a lot of his work. I found enough to chew on in bowling for columbine to satisfy me though.[/quote]

I may not like it, but I’ll listen (as in pay attention) to anybody who takes an honest stab at making a case. Moore is calculatingly dishonest. And in ways that are embarrassingly easy to demonstrate. I love Dr. Marc Lamont Hill. Love the guy, even though he utters nary a syllable that I find myself agreeing with. He is an unabashed extreme leftist zealot, but he’ll tell you that and near as I can determine he has never designed to deceive me. He himself is disturbingly deceived, but I’ve never caught him intentionally conveying a falsehood that was known to him to be such.