Medical Marijuana Case

[quote]ToShinDo wrote:
Isn’t it odd that cannabis is Schedule I while it’s main active ingredient (supposedly the one that makes it so “dangerous”) when added to sesame oil and put in a capsule is only Schedule III? Oh wait, I know why! It’s because a pill can be patented and sold ($$$$), while a plant cannot be patented!

Here’s an example of how much money:
If someone needs 3 pills a day (each lasting around 6 hours, I believe) every say, that’s $1080 every month.

Also, I’m not sure about the wisdom of taking a pill for severe nausea. It tends not to stay down.

[/quote]

Toshindo, you have figured it out, that part is true. This is about money, and very little else. What the drug companies, the lobbyists, and our cocksucking politicians are anticipating though, is for those chronically ill patients to have medical coverage, so they don’t really go broke buying the “legal” stuff.

I don’t use the word “evil” very often, but this is a pretty close thing to it. They are literally causing pain and suffering by their overt actions to make something which grows naturally on this planet illegal so that they can continue to make money.

“Marijuana and mushrooms grow naturally on the planet. So when we make something natural against the law, that’s like saying God made a mistake, isn’t it?” -Bill Hicks

[quote]zeropointzero wrote:

    (1) Schedule I. -

        (A) The drug or other substance has a high potential for abuse.

        (B) [b]The drug or other substance has no currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States.[/b]

        (C) There is a lack of accepted safety for use of the drug or other substance under medical supervision.[/quote]

Oh, I see it now. The magic is in the word “currently”. As I said, Schedule 1 is not synonomous with “no medical value”

Actually GHB probably meets all three criteria. Lots of drugs the FDA has cleared for safety and efficacy are no longer used medically, especially because something safer and less fun is available.

Still, thanks for finding the citation.

[quote]endgamer711 wrote:
Actually GHB probably meets all three criteria. Lots of drugs the FDA has cleared for safety and efficacy are no longer used medically, especially because something safer and less fun is available.

Still, thanks for finding the citation.[/quote]

The thing is, it’s the other way around. GHB was available OTC, but then it was scheduled (March 2000) due to reports of overdoses and its use as a date rape drug. An exception was made for xyrem (July 2002), which is exactly the same substance. It’s just FDA approved GHB, which is a schedule III drug.

GHB is a naturally occurring substance (possibly a neurotransmitter) in mammals. I found a study of it as a treatment for cataplexy in 1979. I also found studies from the 90’s for GHB as a treatment for alcoholism. These mostly came from Italy.

So the key phrase is “currently accepted” and “in the US.” If these requirements aren’t met, I guess the government and media are free to demonize it however they see fit, regardless of any past or future occurrence of medical usefulness.

Broughton, R and M. Mamelak. Can J Neurol Sci. 1979 Feb;6(1):1-6.

Gessa, GL. Recenti Prog Med. 1990 Mar;81(3):171-5.

While money is a huge motivator in the war on drugs, we should not forget that it has also provided a reason for infringing upon civil liberties and moving the US closer to fascism.

This case shows the cruel and heartless nature of our politicians. It also shows the lengths they will go to, in order to thwart the will of the people.

All drugs should be legalised or at least decriminalized.

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
All drugs should be legalised or at least decriminalized.[/quote]

Not to be a dick or anything any more than I already am, but this is a horrible idea.

I can’t remember when exactly, but we had a thread on this where I think I wrote a two page essay on why this is a bad idea.

I’ll shorten my tirade on this subject:
We can’t legalize drugs because of stupid people. As soon as we get rid of stupid people, then it would be A-ok.

Don’t call me a killjoy, I just get to play pattycake with addicts all night long on occasion, and there is nothing more gratifying or spiritually completing to me than to smell the sweet, poignant funk of severe body odor mixed with vomit and urine-soaked clothing.

“The problem with drugs is that some people forget to stop doing them, children. There is a time and place for everything… and it’s called COLLEGE. Do you understand?” -Chef from South Park

[quote]zeropointzero wrote:
endgamer711 wrote:
Actually GHB probably meets all three criteria. Lots of drugs the FDA has cleared for safety and efficacy are no longer used medically, especially because something safer and less fun is available.

Still, thanks for finding the citation.

The thing is, it’s the other way around. GHB was available OTC, but then it was scheduled (March 2000) due to reports of overdoses and its use as a date rape drug. An exception was made for xyrem (July 2002), which is exactly the same substance. It’s just FDA approved GHB, which is a schedule III drug.

GHB is a naturally occurring substance (possibly a neurotransmitter) in mammals. I found a study of it as a treatment for cataplexy in 1979. I also found studies from the 90’s for GHB as a treatment for alcoholism. These mostly came from Italy.

So the key phrase is “currently accepted” and “in the US.” If these requirements aren’t met, I guess the government and media are free to demonize it however they see fit, regardless of any past or future occurrence of medical usefulness.

Broughton, R and M. Mamelak. Can J Neurol Sci. 1979 Feb;6(1):1-6.

Gessa, GL. Recenti Prog Med. 1990 Mar;81(3):171-5.[/quote]

I thought: CNS depressent that suppresses the gag reflex - who needs this? But it turns out it has an application.

Yeah. The Attorney General is pretty much free to make the determination. I wonder who does that for WHO? Anyhow, it’s a little surprising the same drug can show up on more than one schedule. But cocaine is given the exact same treatment, and marijuana/Marinol. They are saying the raw drug has no currently accepted medical use.

So, it’s not about molecules. To be fair, one of the the things that distinguishes xyrem from GHB is that at least the dosage is clear. To be ultra fair, however, this disadvantage did not exist until the stuff was banned from OTC.

Also in the chronology: GHB was banned from over the counter sale in 1990. Then research on a narcolepsy application started in 1996. In 2000-2002 timeframe there was a 33% reduction in ER visits associated with GHB.

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Zeppelin795 wrote:
All drugs should be legalised or at least decriminalized.

Not to be a dick or anything any more than I already am, but this is a horrible idea.

I can’t remember when exactly, but we had a thread on this where I think I wrote a two page essay on why this is a bad idea.

I’ll shorten my tirade on this subject:
We can’t legalize drugs because of stupid people. As soon as we get rid of stupid people, then it would be A-ok.

Don’t call me a killjoy, I just get to play pattycake with addicts all night long on occasion, and there is nothing more gratifying or spiritually completing to me than to smell the sweet, poignant funk of severe body odor mixed with vomit and urine-soaked clothing.

“The problem with drugs is that some people forget to stop doing them, children. There is a time and place for everything… and it’s called COLLEGE. Do you understand?” -Chef from South Park[/quote]

I know quite a few people who do drugs recreationally and they are not stupid by any means. It essentially is an escape from whatever it is that they aren’t satisfied with in life. And let us not forget there is a big difference between use and abuse. You could never tell these people use drugs occasionally. They are like people who drink but don’t become alcoholics.

I don’t do coke because I choose not to. And if it was legalised tomorrow I still wouldn’t do it. The government should have no authority to tell you what to put in your body…period.

More people die as a result of the “war on drugs” than die from overdosing.

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

I know quite a few people who do drugs recreationally and they are not stupid by any means. It essentially is an escape from whatever it is that they aren’t satisfied with in life. And let us not forget there is a big difference between use and abuse. You could never tell these people use drugs occasionally. They are like people who drink but don’t become alcoholics.

I don’t do coke because I choose not to. And if it was legalised tomorrow I still wouldn’t do it. The government should have no authority to tell you what to put in your body…period.

More people die as a result of the “war on drugs” than die from overdosing. [/quote]

zeppelin,

You avoided his point. His point was the utilitarian concern that it’s worse for society to absorb the cost of the stupid people and the harm they will create by doing certain hard drugs, not that it’s impossible for those drugs to be used recreationally.

I tend to fall on that side as well – certain drugs are just too capable of doing harm for us as a society to allow them to be legalized, at least while we as a society are going to absorb the various costs of stupid users, from medical costs to crime to the poverty of their kids.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Zeppelin795 wrote:

I know quite a few people who do drugs recreationally and they are not stupid by any means. It essentially is an escape from whatever it is that they aren’t satisfied with in life. And let us not forget there is a big difference between use and abuse. You could never tell these people use drugs occasionally. They are like people who drink but don’t become alcoholics.

I don’t do coke because I choose not to. And if it was legalised tomorrow I still wouldn’t do it. The government should have no authority to tell you what to put in your body…period.

More people die as a result of the “war on drugs” than die from overdosing.

zeppelin,

You avoided his point. His point was the utilitarian concern that it’s worse for society to absorb the cost of the stupid people and the harm they will create by doing certain hard drugs, not that it’s impossible for those drugs to be used recreationally.

I tend to fall on that side as well – certain drugs are just too capable of doing harm for us as a society to allow them to be legalized, at least while we as a society are going to absorb the various costs of stupid users, from medical costs to crime to the poverty of their kids.[/quote]

No I didn’t avoid his point. More people die as a result of the so-called “war on drugs” than die from overdosing. That is a utilitarian point! The cost of the “war on drugs” is far worse than if they were legalized.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:

zeppelin,

You avoided his point. His point was the utilitarian concern that it’s worse for society to absorb the cost of the stupid people and the harm they will create by doing certain hard drugs, not that it’s impossible for those drugs to be used recreationally.

I tend to fall on that side as well – certain drugs are just too capable of doing harm for us as a society to allow them to be legalized, at least while we as a society are going to absorb the various costs of stupid users, from medical costs to crime to the poverty of their kids.

Zeppelin795 wrote:

No I didn’t avoid his point. More people die as a result of the so-called “war on drugs” than die from overdosing. That is a utilitarian point! The cost of the “war on drugs” is far worse than if they were legalized.[/quote]

You’re avoiding my point as well, because you are only defining the “cost” as overdose deaths vs. those deaths you attribute to the “war on drugs.” There are many other costs to consider, a few of which I pointed out above.

Where I assume we agree is that it should be a utilitarian, rather than a moral, calculation: harm from legalization vs. harm from keeping them illegal, including all costs on both sides of the ledger.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

BostonBarrister wrote:

zeppelin,

You avoided his point. His point was the utilitarian concern that it’s worse for society to absorb the cost of the stupid people and the harm they will create by doing certain hard drugs, not that it’s impossible for those drugs to be used recreationally.

I tend to fall on that side as well – certain drugs are just too capable of doing harm for us as a society to allow them to be legalized, at least while we as a society are going to absorb the various costs of stupid users, from medical costs to crime to the poverty of their kids.

Zeppelin795 wrote:

No I didn’t avoid his point. More people die as a result of the so-called “war on drugs” than die from overdosing. That is a utilitarian point! The cost of the “war on drugs” is far worse than if they were legalized.

You’re avoiding my point as well, because you are only defining the “cost” as overdose deaths vs. those deaths you attribute to the “war on drugs.” There are many other costs to consider, a few of which I pointed out above.

Where I assume we agree is that it should be a utilitarian, rather than a moral, calculation: harm from legalization vs. harm from keeping them illegal, including all costs on both sides of the ledger.[/quote]

Okay what I should’ve said was “overdosing and EVERYTHING ELSE that goes along with and around drug use.” This “war” will not be won and I believe isn’t supposed to be won.

We disagree if you believe it should strictly be a utilitarian arguement. I’ve stated in an earlier post that the government should have no right to tell you or I what we can put in our bodies. This is based on moral principles.

But even from a utilitarian perspective the “war” is far more costly when you encompass everything surounding it.

The entire problem with the “War on Drugs” is right there in its name. It wasn’t a name like “March of Dimes” or “Jerry’s Kids” or like that, oh no, it had to be a war. A crusade.

But when drugs are a problem, they’re a public health problem, not a morals issue. War never made anyone healthier. Other countries approach drugs as a public health problem. Why can’t we?

This is not about enforcement; these countries are parties to the same international agreements on drug trafficking that we are, and they do their share of enforcement. But they do treat the end-users vastly differently then we do, and they approach different drugs with strategies tailored to each case (i.e. marijuana is treated relatively permissively, or even legalized).

And guess what? They get better results than we do, in terms of limiting the damages.

I think that the methamphetamine epidemic sweeping the country is an indirect result of the war on drugs. It follows the same model as President Nixon’s Operation Intercept, which more or less closed off marijuana traffic from Mexico for several months with heightened customs inspections. Net result? After the campaign the marijuana problem was still there, but we also had a whole bunch of folks who had switched to pills - depressants mainly.

Stop the war on drugs. The drugs are winning.

[quote]endgamer711 wrote:
Stop the war on drugs. The drugs are winning.[/quote]

And as long as humans have a fundamental desire to alter their conscious state, drugs will continue to exist, no matter the steps taken to prevent their production and consumption.

It’s not (quite) dead yet…

http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2006_03_19-2006_03_25.shtml#1143157836

[Randy Barnett, March 23, 2006 at 6:50pm] 0 Trackbacks / Possibly More Trackbacks

Unfortunately, I have to leave the conference early to fly to LA for the oral argument in Gonzales v. Raich, which is on remand to the Ninth Circuit. The hearing is on Monday at 1:30pm in Pasadena. Those who are interested in the briefs in the case can find them here ( http://www.angeljustice.org/article.php?list=type&type=45 )(scroll down).

I have been wanting to post on the arguments we are making but have been too busy with all sorts of things to do so. Maybe next week after the argument. Among other claims that survive is our assertion of the fundamental rights to preserve one’s life and to avoid pain and suffering that are protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment and the Ninth Amendment ( The Ninth Amendment: It Means What it Says by Randy E. Barnett :: SSRN ). Here is the thrust of our Due Process Clause argument from our opening brief:

[i] It is improper for Congress to use its enumerated powers to violate fundamental rights. The Fifth Amendment’s Due Process Clause and the Ninth Amendment preclude the federal government from applying the CSA to prohibit Appellants’ activities. The Supreme Court has held “in a long line of cases,” Washington v. Glucksberg, 521 U.S. 702, 720-21 (1997), the most recent of which is Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S. 558 (2003), that neither the rights enumerated in the Constitution nor “the specific practices” that were approved at a particular time in our nation’s history “marks the outer limits of the substantive sphere of liberty” that the Due Process Clause protects, Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pa. v. Casey, 505 U.S. 833, 848 (1992) (citing U.S. Const. amend. IX); see also Richmond Newspapers v. Virginia, 448 U.S. 555, 579 (1980) (relying in part on the Ninth Amendment to protect an unenumerated right of access to public trials).

The Supreme Court's opinions in this "long line of cases" establish that Mrs. Raich has fundamental liberty interests in making life-shaping medical decisions that are necessary to preserve the integrity of her body, avoid intolerable physical pain, and preserve her life. As applied here, these broader fundamental liberty interests protect Mrs. Raich's decision to take the medication she needs. No longstanding historical prohibition suggests otherwise. To the contrary, the federal government and the States have historically left such decisions to seriously ill patients and their physicians. Moreover, there is an emerging awareness that "liberty" protects such decisions in cases where, as here, a seriously ill patient's physician has determined that no other medication can save her from intolerable pain and death.

Under the "undue burden" standard set forth in Casey, prohibiting Mrs. Raich from taking cannabis - which is what the federal government threatens to do - would violate the Due Process Clause. (Prohibiting her from taking cannabis would also violate the Ninth Amendment. However, because the Supreme Court has relied primarily on the Due Process Clause when protecting unenumerated rights, for simplicity Appellants will refer only to that constitutional provision for the remainder of this brief.) Stringent regulations of medical cannabis use, however, are consistent with Mrs. Raich?s fundamental liberty interests. So long as such regulations are "not designed to strike at the right itself" and do not have the "effect" of creating "a substantial obstacle" to its exercise, Casey, 505 U.S. at 874, 877, nothing in the Constitution prevents the federal government from requiring extensive safeguards to ensure that medical cannabis is not diverted or abused.

For instance, it would not violate the Due Process Clause to require that, after a licensed physician has recommended cannabis for a seriously ill patient, she must obtain a similar recommendation from one or more other licensed physicians before she can use or cultivate the medication. Compare Health Canada, FAQ - Medical Use of Marihuana( http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/dhp-mps/marihuana/about-apropos/faq_e.html ) (June 13, 2005) (requiring declaration from treating physician and confirmation from specialist). The Due Process Clause would also allow a requirement that a physician cannot recommend medical cannabis for a patient unless she has tried to obtain relief from a reasonable number of mass-produced synthetic medications.

The constitutional permissibility of such regulations - and of other, more demanding regulations - shows that the federal government can exercise its powers to promote its interests in preventing abuse and diversion of medical cannabis without trampling on Mrs. Raich's fundamental liberty interests. Recognizing those interests forecloses only laws that completely prohibit or unduly burden their exercise, unless such laws are narrowly tailored to advance a compelling government interest. That is the only line this Court must draw. [/i]

Readers should keep in mind that (believe it or not) this lawsuit is still in its pre-trial preliminary phase so there has yet to be an adjudication of the facts. At this juncture, the court is supposed to accept the uncontested facts in the complaint as true; and the government has not contested the fact that Angel Raich is likely to die of a wasting disease and will suffer great physical pain from a variety of disorders if she does not use cannabis, which is the only drug that has been effective in her particular case. If we prevail on our constitutional claims, we must then prevail on these factual claims at trial.