See, my problem with feminism is that the word is sexist in itself (Ie. somewhat implies that thinking that men and women should be treated equal is a “feminine belief”). I wouldn’t want to replace the word with “maleism” and call myself a “maleist” either, as I think that would be equally sexist. Wikipedia describes a feminist as someone who “advocates or supports the rights and equality of women.” Sounds like a completely reasonable person to me, but attaching a masculine or feminine just seems unfair to me. How about “gender equalityism” and “I don’t care what you pee with but if you show up late for work and are lazy then I don’t want you aroundism.” Granted, they’re not quite as catchy.
Not a direct response to anything in the thread but I feel that it applies to the overall theme.
Have always wanted to get a feminist’s view on changing the word “feminism” to something more inclusive, hope you can help me out fibs!
[quote]RuckItAll wrote:
See, my problem with feminism is that the word is sexist in itself (Ie. somewhat implies that thinking that men and women should be treated equal is a “feminine belief”). I wouldn’t want to replace the word with “maleism” and call myself a “maleist” either, as I think that would be equally sexist. Wikipedia describes a feminist as someone who “advocates or supports the rights and equality of women.” Sounds like a completely reasonable person to me, but attaching a masculine or feminine just seems unfair to me. How about “gender equalityism” and “I don’t care what you pee with but if you show up late for work and are lazy then I don’t want you aroundism.” Granted, they’re not quite as catchy.
Not a direct response to anything in the thread but I feel that it applies to the overall theme.
Have always wanted to get a feminist’s view on changing the word “feminism” to something more inclusive, hope you can help me out fibs![/quote]
Words always ave a history. At least historically (please let’s not down the road of discussing current affairs) the road to equality meant “allow women to do more stuff”. You know, vote, work, file for divorce, own a bank account…
Also, something a LOT of people don’t get is (and oh boy, I’m going down that road) that society is shaped by more than official law. Yes, there are many laws that favour women - then again, more women are raped than men. On average, women earn less for doing the same job. The vast majority of CEOs are men (and don’t tell me they’re too irrational, this forum is proof how often men don’t use their brains).
One thing I do have an issue with is that feminism can mean so many things. I support equal rights, I am Pro Choice, I do think we need to make more changes. But I’ve encountered women who called themselves feminists and who assumed that just being male turned me into an evil person. Oh well, show me any type of peer group without idiots.
[quote]nighthawkz wrote:
On average, women earn less for doing the same job.[/quote]
This is a myth. I can’t believe there are still people who believe this.
[quote]nighthawkz wrote:
On average, women earn less for doing the same job.[/quote]
This is a myth. I can’t believe there are still people who believe this.[/quote]
On what do you base this? Perhaps you have some facts you would like to interject.
My wife works for a university, so the salaries are all made public. She just was on their website and this was universally true, not only that but the majority of top positions were held by men. The same was true of her last job and these are not small privately held companies.
[quote]nighthawkz wrote:
On average, women earn less for doing the same job.[/quote]
This is a myth. I can’t believe there are still people who believe this.[/quote]
On what do you base this? Perhaps you have some facts you would like to interject.
My wife works for a university, so the salaries are all made public. She just was on their website and this was universally true, not only that but the majority of top positions were held by men. The same was true of her last job and these are not small privately held companies.
[/quote]
First of all the majority of top positions being held by men has nothing to do with women earning less for doing the same job. The problem with the wage gap statistics is that they virtually never control for any variables, and if they do control for some variables, it is usually a pitifully inadequate attempt to do so.
I remember when I was a kid hearing about how much less women get paid than men for doing the EXACT SAME THING. People kept telling me that, and I thought “Uh… Why does anyone hire men then?”. CEO’s care about one thing: money. They don’t give a shit about you or if you’re a man or a woman or whatever. All they care about is making a profit.
Do you really think the big money making sharks out there in the world would spend more than they have to for the same job? No. That’s why illegal immigrant labor is so popular (they’re always men btw; are they counted in the wage gap I wonder?). If women just do the same thing for less, I would only hire women and save a boat load of money. Capitalism does not allow for a REAL wage gap.
Here this guy did a pretty good series of videos on it; this is the first one:
[quote]nighthawkz wrote:
On average, women earn less for doing the same job.[/quote]
This is a myth. I can’t believe there are still people who believe this.[/quote]
On what do you base this? Perhaps you have some facts you would like to interject.
My wife works for a university, so the salaries are all made public. She just was on their website and this was universally true, not only that but the majority of top positions were held by men. The same was true of her last job and these are not small privately held companies.
[/quote]
First of all the majority of top positions being held by men has nothing to do with women earning less for doing the same job. The problem with the wage gap statistics is that they virtually never control for any variables, and if they do control for some variables, it is usually a pitifully inadequate attempt to do so.
I remember when I was a kid hearing about how much less women get paid than men for doing the EXACT SAME THING. People kept telling me that, and I thought “Uh… Why does anyone hire men then?”. CEO’s care about one thing: money. They don’t give a shit about you or if you’re a man or a woman or whatever. All they care about is making a profit. Do you really think the big money making sharks out there in the world would spend more than they have to for the same job? No. That’s why illegal immigrant labor is so popular (they’re always men btw; are they counted in the wage gap I wonder?). If women just do the same thing for less, I would only hire women and save a boat load of money. Capitalism does not allow for a REAL wage gap.
Here this guy did a pretty good series of videos on it; this is the first one:
You are correct it does not relate to men earning more for the same job, it certainly could however point to bias, of which I have seen first hand.
Did you watch the video you linked to? It says nothing about the disparity in pay for the same job. His contention is that men make more OVERALL because of the types of jobs they do.
As for the part on how capitalism works, it make be true in theory, however theory is seldom real life. It once again comes down to who, not what, you know.
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
You are correct it does not relate to men earning more for the same job, it certainly could however point to bias, of which I have seen first hand.[/quote]
Then what are we even debating? Gender biases for promotions and different job fields and such? That’s a completely different topic.
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
Did you watch the video you linked to? It says nothing about the disparity in pay for the same job. His contention is that men make more OVERALL because of the types of jobs they do.
[/quote]
Did you read the part where I said it was a series of videos? He gets to it trust me. Given the number of minutes after my post that you replied, it is physically impossible that you have finished watching his lecture. So… Yes I watched ALL the videos, and no, you didn’t.
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
As for the part on how capitalism works, it make be true in theory, however theory is seldom real life. It once again comes down to who, not what, you know.[/quote]
I’m not sure what you mean exactly, but I stand by the assertion that it makes no sense in this age to pay men more for something a woman could do for less, and I cannot be the only one who thinks so.
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
You are correct it does not relate to men earning more for the same job, it certainly could however point to bias, of which I have seen first hand.[/quote]
Then what are we even debating? Gender biases for promotions and different job fields and such? That’s a completely different topic.
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
Did you watch the video you linked to? It says nothing about the disparity in pay for the same job. His contention is that men make more OVERALL because of the types of jobs they do.
[/quote]
Did you read the part where I said it was a series of videos? He gets to it trust me. Given the number of minutes after my post that you replied, it is physically impossible that you have finished watching his lecture. So… Yes I watched ALL the videos, and no, you didn’t.
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
As for the part on how capitalism works, it make be true in theory, however theory is seldom real life. It once again comes down to who, not what, you know.[/quote]
I’m not sure what you mean exactly, but I stand by the assertion that it makes no sense in this age to pay men more for something a woman could do for less, and I cannot be the only one who thinks so.[/quote]
I watched the first two. How about posting the relevant video then? I’m not about to sit through five of them in the hope that he might prove your point.
As for the last part of your reply, how much time have you actually spent in the business world to come to this conclusion? Apparently not enough to realize that the old boys network and cliques still exist. I have seen it. It is not a just a theory I believe.
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
I watched the first two. How about posting the relevant video then? I’m not about to sit through five of them in the hope that he might prove your point.[/quote]
Fair enough. I don’t remember which one it is, and I don’t really care to go through them all right now either. I guess we’re at an impasse lol.
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
As for the last part of your reply, how much time have you actually spent in the business world to come to this conclusion? Apparently not enough to realize that the old boys network and cliques still exist. I have seen it. It is not a just a theory I believe.[/quote]
That’s fair too, because I wasn’t even talking about the old boys club. That, in my mind, is a totally separate issue. All I wanted to prove was that women do not get paid less than men for the SAME job.
Like I said, if you look at the wages at her work, men make a lot more on average than women in the exact same position. These are jobs that have a strict salary range and men are universally near the top of the range. My wife is a go getter, sometimes annoyingly so at home. There is no other explanation but bias for men that don’t work as hard as her making more money for the same job.
Further, I have seen women get repeatedly passed over for promotion by men who certainly were not more competent and in many cases less so. I know this is not a direct comparison to making the same money for the same job, it does however as a whole keep woman’s wages down.
I know in my wife’s case she left her last job after seventeen years of glowing reviews as a department head. Her wonderful boss retired and an incompetent jackass with an ax to grind took his place. She went from the director telling her she was the best employee he had ever had, to being demoted and replaced by one of her underlings (the only man in the department). Don’t try and tell me that politics doesn’t sometimes trump money in the workplace.
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
Further, I have seen women get repeatedly passed over for promotion by men who certainly were not more competent and in many cases less so. I know this is not a direct comparison to making the same money for the same job, it does however as a whole keep woman’s wages down.
I know in my wife’s case she left her last job after seventeen years of glowing reviews as a department head. Her wonderful boss retired and an incompetent jackass with an ax to grind took his place. She went from the director telling her she was the best employee he had ever had, to being demoted and replaced by one of her underlings (the only man in the department). Don’t try and tell me that politics doesn’t sometimes trump money in the workplace.[/quote]
Politics sometimes trumps money. All kinds of shit sometimes happens, but all we can do is search measures of the average for trends. We can never account for every asshole boss.
However have you seen the stats on male vs female bosses? More often than not when females are in power the gender wage gap actually increases.
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
Further, I have seen women get repeatedly passed over for promotion by men who certainly were not more competent and in many cases less so. I know this is not a direct comparison to making the same money for the same job, it does however as a whole keep woman’s wages down.
I know in my wife’s case she left her last job after seventeen years of glowing reviews as a department head. Her wonderful boss retired and an incompetent jackass with an ax to grind took his place. She went from the director telling her she was the best employee he had ever had, to being demoted and replaced by one of her underlings (the only man in the department). Don’t try and tell me that politics doesn’t sometimes trump money in the workplace.[/quote]
Politics sometimes trumps money. All kinds of shit sometimes happens, but all we can do is search measures of the average for trends. We can never account for every asshole boss.
However have you seen the stats on male vs female bosses? More often than not when females are in power the gender wage gap actually increases. [/quote]
I don’t doubt that, women are often worse to other women.
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
Further, I have seen women get repeatedly passed over for promotion by men who certainly were not more competent and in many cases less so. I know this is not a direct comparison to making the same money for the same job, it does however as a whole keep woman’s wages down.
I know in my wife’s case she left her last job after seventeen years of glowing reviews as a department head. Her wonderful boss retired and an incompetent jackass with an ax to grind took his place. She went from the director telling her she was the best employee he had ever had, to being demoted and replaced by one of her underlings (the only man in the department). Don’t try and tell me that politics doesn’t sometimes trump money in the workplace.[/quote]
Politics sometimes trumps money. All kinds of shit sometimes happens, but all we can do is search measures of the average for trends. We can never account for every asshole boss.
However have you seen the stats on male vs female bosses? More often than not when females are in power the gender wage gap actually increases. [/quote]
I don’t doubt that, women are often worse to other women.
[/quote]
You are the fastest poster in the west lol.
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
Further, I have seen women get repeatedly passed over for promotion by men who certainly were not more competent and in many cases less so. I know this is not a direct comparison to making the same money for the same job, it does however as a whole keep woman’s wages down.
I know in my wife’s case she left her last job after seventeen years of glowing reviews as a department head. Her wonderful boss retired and an incompetent jackass with an ax to grind took his place. She went from the director telling her she was the best employee he had ever had, to being demoted and replaced by one of her underlings (the only man in the department). Don’t try and tell me that politics doesn’t sometimes trump money in the workplace.[/quote]
Politics sometimes trumps money. All kinds of shit sometimes happens, but all we can do is search measures of the average for trends. We can never account for every asshole boss.
However have you seen the stats on male vs female bosses? More often than not when females are in power the gender wage gap actually increases. [/quote]
I don’t doubt that, women are often worse to other women.
[/quote]
You are the fastest poster in the west lol.[/quote]
As one of Orion’s best and closest enemies, I really think you two have a future together.
But I’m afraid that pics of some sort are required before we turn our favorite woman-hating, U.S.- bashing, organized government-despising Austrian philosopher to you.
O is almost universally liked around here.
Other than when he’s lecturing on the Apaches, of course.
So, photos, please. [/quote]
Let’s keep things straight 'round here. It’s NOT the Apaches, my friend (you must be thinking of our tall, soap opera creator from New Mexico).[/quote]
Push this is random, but how is your son healing up? Lost the top knuckle on 3 of my fingers on the right hand on friday. Running some oak through a joiner, the wood was launched and pulled me with it. Got lucky though, didn’t lose a whole digit. This was painfully slow to type. Hope your boy is doing alright man
