McCain: Too Stupid to be President?

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[i]“We can’t drive our SUVs and eat as much as we want and keep our homes on 72 degrees at all times … and then just expect that other countries are going to say OK.”

-Barack Obama[/i]
[/quote]

Yes, but luckily I watched him making this statement… so I know that taking this snippet out of context as you have is not the reality of the situation.

He was describing how countries like China and India would not be okay with us telling them to cut down their usage of energy when we are the highest per capita users of energy on the planet.

His comments had absolutely nothing to do with suggesting any loss of freedoms or anything of that ilk. He is suggesting that the US lead by example, in terms of working to change our oil addiction, creating new industries, complete with jobs and technology exports, and that other countries would follow our lead.

Care to try again? How is Obama proposing to restrict freedoms?

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Majin wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
(2) The people have to see that gov’t is NOT the answer.

The problem is that the idea of government doing ‘something’ is heavily ingrained in the American psyche. Just like crime is easier than calculus, violence is easier to do than observe a moral code.

What’s your answer, personal responsibility?

Morality has to catch up with science. Our morality is a slave-morality, the morality of the poor and disenfranchised. Who else would think that alms and using a government club to rob the productive was good? Who else would want guaranteed healthcare, guaranteed retirement, a guaranteed education, a guaranteed safety net of foodstamps and rent subsidies? Serfs and slaves.

Until the vast majority accepts and understands that you should get JUST EXACTLY what you have earned and deserve, and that robbing someone is a ticket to hell on earth, then this insanity will continue.[/quote]

You’re missing one important point. Most of those who ‘earned it’ already HAD the the kind of upbringing benefits that allowed them to attain their high status. The same kind of benefits the very affluent are eternally trying to deny everyone else.

They also seem to be very insecure about holding onto their power by suppressing others. Could it be because they know that they are not special in their ability to ‘earn and deserve’?

Statistically speaking, the most ‘moral’(least crime, poverty and conflicts while more economic stability and a thriving middle class) nations are the ones with most effective social programs.

Went flying today with a friend. We saw lots of power lines. We didn’t hit any.

[quote]Majin wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Majin wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
(2) The people have to see that gov’t is NOT the answer.

The problem is that the idea of government doing ‘something’ is heavily ingrained in the American psyche. Just like crime is easier than calculus, violence is easier to do than observe a moral code.

What’s your answer, personal responsibility?

Morality has to catch up with science. Our morality is a slave-morality, the morality of the poor and disenfranchised. Who else would think that alms and using a government club to rob the productive was good? Who else would want guaranteed healthcare, guaranteed retirement, a guaranteed education, a guaranteed safety net of foodstamps and rent subsidies? Serfs and slaves.

Until the vast majority accepts and understands that you should get JUST EXACTLY what you have earned and deserve, and that robbing someone is a ticket to hell on earth, then this insanity will continue.

You’re missing one important point. Most of those who ‘earned it’ already HAD the the kind of upbringing benefits that allowed them to attain their high status. The same kind of benefits the very affluent are eternally trying to deny everyone else.

They also seem to be very insecure about holding onto their power by suppressing others. Could it be because they know that they are not special in their ability to ‘earn and deserve’?

Statistically speaking, the most ‘moral’(least crime, poverty and conflicts while more economic stability and a thriving middle class) nations are the ones with most effective social programs.[/quote]

To protect themselves, the rich created the mixed economy. In a free market, they would lose their positions of power to the more able and competent. They thus created a system that drains the middle class to fund benefits for the poor. Government power is a way to stifle competition. Thus you see the erosion of the middle class in this country.

Government handouts are mostly designed to rob the middle class and keep the poor from rioting and pillaging.

The most stable country on earth btw is Switzerland. It also happens to have the highest ratio of financial to fixed assets. There’s a reason for that.

[quote]vroom wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
[i]“We can’t drive our SUVs and eat as much as we want and keep our homes on 72 degrees at all times … and then just expect that other countries are going to say OK.”

-Barack Obama[/i]

Yes, but luckily I watched him making this statement… so I know that taking this snippet out of context as you have is not the reality of the situation.

He was describing how countries like China and India would not be okay with us telling them to cut down their usage of energy when we are the highest per capita users of energy on the planet.

His comments had absolutely nothing to do with suggesting any loss of freedoms or anything of that ilk. He is suggesting that the US lead by example, in terms of working to change our oil addiction, creating new industries, complete with jobs and technology exports, and that other countries would follow our lead.

Care to try again? How is Obama proposing to restrict freedoms?[/quote]

Warrantless wiretaps.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/06/america/06mccain.php

Oh, wait…wrong candidate.

[quote]Majin wrote:

You’re missing one important point. Most of those who ‘earned it’ already HAD the the kind of upbringing benefits that allowed them to attain their high status. The same kind of benefits the very affluent are eternally trying to deny everyone else.[/quote]

Over 90% of millionaires are first generation. In other words they did not inherit it.

Also who exactly is trying to deny everyone that benefit of becoming affluent? And how are they doing it?[quote]

They also seem to be very insecure about holding onto their power by suppressing others. Could it be because they know that they are not special in their ability to ‘earn and deserve’?[/quote]

Who exactly are these people? I believe you see these fantasy rich people who are sitting in their billion dollar homes, smoking cigars, living up the fat cat life. But this is a movie fantasy, and not quite reality.

If you want to become wealthy, then do it. The only real difference between the wealthy and the poor is living beneath your means. Yes there is a little more to it, but that is the most basic part of it, and explains why something like 50% of lottery winners end up back where they were before they won, if not worse off.

It is not money that makes you wealthy, it is your attitude about money, and your decisions. [quote]

Statistically speaking, the most ‘moral’(least crime, poverty and conflicts while more economic stability and a thriving middle class) nations are the ones with most effective social programs.[/quote]

How do you define effective? We have tons, but they are not effective, they are simply government sponsored co-dependence.

[quote]vroom wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
[i]“We can’t drive our SUVs and eat as much as we want and keep our homes on 72 degrees at all times … and then just expect that other countries are going to say OK.”

-Barack Obama[/i]

Yes, but luckily I watched him making this statement… so I know that taking this snippet out of context as you have is not the reality of the situation.

He was describing how countries like China and India would not be okay with us telling them to cut down their usage of energy when we are the highest per capita users of energy on the planet.

His comments had absolutely nothing to do with suggesting any loss of freedoms or anything of that ilk. He is suggesting that the US lead by example, in terms of working to change our oil addiction, creating new industries, complete with jobs and technology exports, and that other countries would follow our lead.

Care to try again? How is Obama proposing to restrict freedoms?[/quote]

LOL! Whatever. I offered that quote as a small insight into his thinking and political ideology.

You know just as well as anyone else that that Obama puts his faith in collectivism and the power of the state rather than the individual. We see this in his anti-gun stances and policies, his strong desire for a much larger overall tax on just about everything, his willingness to force the US(which means the individual taxpayer) to shoulder the load of a “global poverty tax”, his support of affirmative action, his support of “comparable worth” initiatives, his support for national health care, his aggressive desire to drastically increase capital gains taxe(a direct tax on individual incentive), etc, etc,…

In short, Obama is a gigantic socialist at heart. His policies would, as all socialist policies do, seek to suppress the individual in the “better interests” of the state. If you can’t see this, than your just not paying attention…

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
In short, Obama is a gigantic socialist at heart. His policies would, as all socialist policies do, seek to suppress the individual in the “better interests” of the state. If you can’t see this, than your just not paying attention…
[/quote]

Okay, so you are changing your statement.

If you aren’t careful you’ll step into an arena where your comments can be reasonably debated. First, let’s get beyond the “suppress the individual” and look at the concept at heart here.

You are talking about taxing the “rich”, more, in order to provide programs that help many individuals deal with the issues they face. I’m not sticking up for “socialism” mind you, but that is what you seem to mean.

So, now we get into what uses of tax money are good uses of tax money. Is education a good use of tax money? How about having a strong military? How about making it easier for people to qualify for high paying jobs so that they can contribute to the economy fully? How about building tons of prisons to keep criminals locked up?

Anyhow, I’m not for a nanny state and I’m not for the creation of entitlement systems, but each individual use of tax money can be put through some type of cost-benefit analysis to determine whether it will have a positive net effect or not.

It’s quite possible that the incredible economic might of the US was partially possible because of factors such as public highways and infrastructure combined with widely available public education. It’s also possible that some of the patriotism which makes a volunteer army possible is developed through public education which makes the public aware of democratic principles and the role the US has played in world affairs.

So, now you get into the idea that making the nation rich and successful, in total, floats all boats and makes everyone better off. Believe it or not, but be careful that you don’t discount some of the immeasurable influences on society that have allowed your country to flourish and compete globally. Shit canning all social programs would certainly provide a short term gain in terms of personal income, but it might come with longer term negatives that you haven’t thought through.

Don’t let ideologies blind you to the bigger issues hidden under the surface…

Please note, I certainly don’t have the answers to the questions or issues I’ve raised above.

You honestly think conservatives don’t think about these issues?

…Well I’m sure a bunch don’t…

Did you ever think that social issues like bad public education CAN’T be solved by throwing money at them? If you take a public school with 1,000 kids that don’t feel like being there and don’t a shit about learning what’s taught, then all throwing money at it will do is give them a bunch of brand new computers to look up pictures of “tubgirl” on.

[quote]Natural Nate wrote:
Did you ever think that social issues like bad public education CAN’T be solved by throwing money at them?

If you take a public school with 1,000 kids that don’t feel like being there and don’t a shit about learning what’s taught, then all throwing money at it will do is give them a bunch of brand new computers to look up pictures of “tubgirl” on.[/quote]

I’m not suggesting that money should be thrown at anything.

However, at the same time, it’s probably an unfair characterization to assume that everything is peachy in every school district and that there are no problems with existing facilities.

Perhaps we should figure out why 1000 kids don’t value school. Is it because they live in an overcrowded community with rampant drugs, crime and physical violence? Is it because they have crappy teachers, perhaps because nobody wants to work there? Is it because society doesn’t understand the value of education anymore?

What’s the value, to the nation, in terms of economic payback, to change the nature of a community such that it’s children become educated, get good jobs, and contribute to the wealth of the nation with productivity and ideas – when the alternative is drugs, crime and imprisonment for untold following generations? Add it up.

Perhaps there is no way to define cost effective policies or strategies… and I’ll certainly agree that “throwing money at it” is not a good plan.

Maybe a long term solution might be not to create “projects” that collect the poor into huge groups so that their communities can be shunned and devolve into crowded ineffectively policed warrens for drugs, crime, youth pregnancy and so forth.

Given that we already have vast areas that contain groups of people who are not economically contributing to the well being of the country, perhaps some effort should be put into helping to alleviate the situation.

There are many things that could be done that don’t involve spending a lot of money – in particular, zoning regulations and other related initiatives can greatly impact overcrowding and local availability of meaningful jobs.

If the Dems are really all about throwing money at problems, instead of coming up with ways to use wise policies and strategies with a bit of money when absolutely necessary, then that is too bad.

However, what I would really like to see is that Dems come up with initiatives that have the ability to increase the public good while Republicans keep them from growing the government or wasting even a single dime in the process.

Both parties have valid viewpoints and ideas – and they are both prone to excesses that the other can curb. If we could stop practicing purely divisive and destructive politics, it might be possible to have a smoother functioning government and a less expensive government (per capita).

Instead, the mistakes of the past are used as excuses not to try to fix anything, when instead we should learn and adjust.

Anyway, castigate me if you will, but realize that I’m not coming at this from a bleeding heart liberal angle, but from one of creating a richer and more powerful nation with less of an economic burden due to unproductive segments of society.

Well…yeah. That was a very Vroom-esq stating what we already know :smiley:

Consider this: Just because the Federal government doesn’t throw money at social issues…doesn’t mean those social issues don’t get funding.

Lots of wealthy people are involved in charity. Look at Bill Gates. I suspect that a wealthy person making a donation does so in a much more effective and positive way than a governing body could.

Politicians are interesting in funding stuff to look good and get more votes. Rich people are interested in funding stuff to make the world a better place. Except for the evil rich people that fund research into developing sharks with laser beams attached to their foreheads.

[quote]Natural Nate wrote:
Well…yeah. That was a very Vroom-esq stating what we already know :D[/quote]

Yeah, I’m sure some people may know it or think it, but listening to the retard ideological stances spouted in these parts there isn’t a lot of evidence of it…

We, or our politicians, can come up with real ideas and solutions if we could ever get past the partisan ideologies defining politics today.

[quote]vroom wrote:
We, or our politicians, can come up with real ideas and solutions if we could ever get past the partisan ideologies defining politics today.[/quote]

But what might be a good idea to you may not be to me. Why should I be forced to fund a cause I might be morally opposed to?

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
But what might be a good idea to you may not be to me. Why should I be forced to fund a cause I might be morally opposed to?[/quote]

True, and vice versa, but that’s the nature of democracy.

Ideological spin is an attempt to “trick” people into voting the way you want them to vote – instead of considering the issues in depth.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Who else would want guaranteed healthcare, guaranteed retirement, a guaranteed education, a guaranteed safety net of foodstamps and rent subsidies? Serfs and slaves.

Until the vast majority accepts and understands that you should get JUST EXACTLY what you have earned and deserve, and that robbing someone is a ticket to hell on earth, then this insanity will continue.
[/quote]

While I don’t completely agree, I think that the world would be a much better place if this attitude was more common.

How many of you know, on a personal basis, a terrorist? Ever had lunch or a meeting with one?

How many of you have sat and listened to endless diatribes about how America is evil and wants to kill blacks?

How many of you know a priest who says insane shit?

McCain is probably too old to be effective, and whoever his VP is will REALLY run the show. Just about anyone McCain picks would be better than Obama.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
How many of you know, on a personal basis, a terrorist? Ever had lunch or a meeting with one?

How many of you have sat and listened to endless diatribes about how America is evil and wants to kill blacks?

How many of you know a priest who says insane shit?

McCain is probably too old to be effective, and whoever his VP is will REALLY run the show. Just about anyone McCain picks would be better than Obama.[/quote]

Doesn’t this imply that McCain is a better choice than Obama? I thought you saw them as equally crappy.

[quote]vroom wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
[i]“We can’t drive our SUVs and eat as much as we want and keep our homes on 72 degrees at all times … and then just expect that other countries are going to say OK.”

-Barack Obama[/i]

Yes, but luckily I watched him making this statement… so I know that taking this snippet out of context as you have is not the reality of the situation.

He was describing how countries like China and India would not be okay with us telling them to cut down their usage of energy when we are the highest per capita users of energy on the planet.

His comments had absolutely nothing to do with suggesting any loss of freedoms or anything of that ilk. He is suggesting that the US lead by example, in terms of working to change our oil addiction, creating new industries, complete with jobs and technology exports, and that other countries would follow our lead.

Care to try again? How is Obama proposing to restrict freedoms?[/quote]

By using cap and trade to restrict our energy usage. His statement means exactly what is seems.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
vroom wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
[i]“We can’t drive our SUVs and eat as much as we want and keep our homes on 72 degrees at all times … and then just expect that other countries are going to say OK.”

-Barack Obama[/i]

Yes, but luckily I watched him making this statement… so I know that taking this snippet out of context as you have is not the reality of the situation.

He was describing how countries like China and India would not be okay with us telling them to cut down their usage of energy when we are the highest per capita users of energy on the planet.

His comments had absolutely nothing to do with suggesting any loss of freedoms or anything of that ilk. He is suggesting that the US lead by example, in terms of working to change our oil addiction, creating new industries, complete with jobs and technology exports, and that other countries would follow our lead.

Care to try again? How is Obama proposing to restrict freedoms?

By using cap and trade to restrict our energy usage. His statement means exactly what is seems.[/quote]
I assume McCain’s support for cap and trade means something different than Obama’s support of cap and trade.

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
vroom wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
I think that the term “collectivist” is what can best describe the Obama. Either way, he apparantly doesn’t put a whole lot of stock in individual freedom.

Freedom?

You think he’s out to curtail personal freedoms?

Yes, I do. I believe that his political ideoligy is one that seeks to restrict the individual in the “better” interests of the state.

[i]“We can’t drive our SUVs and eat as much as we want and keep our homes on 72 degrees at all times … and then just expect that other countries are going to say OK.”

-Barack Obama[/i]

[/quote]

That, uh…isn’t curtailing individual freedoms at all?