I could not disagree more.
Voting Republican is vastly preferable to socialism.
Not to mention an emboldened iran.
[quote]Jeff R wrote:
Staying home will not change anything.
We have to make it much more obvious to these idiots. If this means Obama and a Dem majority for 8 years, so be it. What is 8 years or even 16 years in the grand sceme of things?
We first have to bring them back, and this means not voting for them.
I could not disagree more.
Voting Republican is vastly preferable to socialism.
Not to mention an emboldened iran.
[/quote]
At what cost? Would you prefer to ease into socialism? Say over the next 20 years, or would you rather start to build a party that can actually reverse this trend? Right now the only way they are going to this is by double talk and trickery.
We need an intellegent party able to educate voters. Platitudes work great for the liberal agenda. They simply don’t work for a conservative one. You must get the american public to think and take an active interest in politics and economics.
Right now most Republicans are not substantially different then Dems on anything but social policy, an area that shouldn’t even be governed by political appointees.
We need to you to help us rebuild a Conservative party. We need your vote and your money. We need you encouraging other conservatives. We need to fundamentally change the party or we will only slow down the inevitable. There is only one way to do this and it is show, as clearly as possible, the Republican party that we are not happy with the direction it is taking.
[quote]dhickey wrote:
Those waiting for the GOP to come around are going to be waiting a very long time. If conservatives really want to steer the GOP they will start supporting the Libertarian Party. [/quote]
I’ve made up my mind to go with the CP. Heck alot closer to Conservatism than the LP.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
dhickey wrote:
Those waiting for the GOP to come around are going to be waiting a very long time. If conservatives really want to steer the GOP they will start supporting the Libertarian Party.
I’ve made up my mind to go with the CP. Heck alot closer to Conservatism than the LP.[/quote]
I looked at them breifly. At first glance they seemed to be a bit more religious than I was comfortable with. Same effect though. Again, it’s not about bringing a third party to national prominance. It’s about sending a message loud and clear.
If a few true conservatives make it into office, even better. I would say there would actually be a pretty good chance of this happening in local office. If we can get voting conservatives to act like conservatives again.
[quote]dhickey wrote:
Jeff R wrote:
Staying home will not change anything.
We have to make it much more obvious to these idiots. If this means Obama and a Dem majority for 8 years, so be it. What is 8 years or even 16 years in the grand sceme of things?
We first have to bring them back, and this means not voting for them.
I could not disagree more.
Voting Republican is vastly preferable to socialism.
Not to mention an emboldened iran.
At what cost? Would you prefer to ease into socialism? Say over the next 20 years, or would you rather start to build a party that can actually reverse this trend? Right now the only way they are going to this is by double talk and trickery.
We need an intellegent party able to educate voters. Platitudes work great for the liberal agenda. They simply don’t work for a conservative one. You must get the american public to think and take an active interest in politics and economics.
Right now most Republicans are not substantially different then Dems on anything but social policy, an area that shouldn’t even be governed by political appointees.
We need to you to help us rebuild a Conservative party. We need your vote and your money. We need you encouraging other conservatives. We need to fundamentally change the party or we will only slow down the inevitable. There is only one way to do this and it is show, as clearly as possible, the Republican party that we are not happy with the direction it is taking.
[/quote]
The libertarian movement is going nowhere. Let’s get that straight.
I know you are on a crusade, but, it’s likely to be lonely.
Now, if you, who are MUCH closer in ideology to a Republican keep voting in “protest,” our transition to lenin’s Government will be COMPLETE.
If you think the Republicans differ only in “social” issues, I think it’s time for you to check again.
In essence, you are doing nothing but de facto handing your vote to the democrats.
Think about it.
JeffR
[quote]dhickey wrote:
Sloth wrote:
dhickey wrote:
Those waiting for the GOP to come around are going to be waiting a very long time. If conservatives really want to steer the GOP they will start supporting the Libertarian Party.
I’ve made up my mind to go with the CP. Heck alot closer to Conservatism than the LP.
I looked at them breifly. At first glance they seemed to be a bit more religious than I was comfortable with. Same effect though. Again, it’s not about bringing a third party to national prominance. It’s about sending a message loud and clear.
If a few true conservatives make it into office, even better. I would say there would actually be a pretty good chance of this happening in local office. If we can get voting conservatives to act like conservatives again.[/quote]
I think the main objective now is to finish off the GoP, to make room for alternatives.
[quote]Jeff R wrote:
Not to mention an emboldened iran.
[/quote]
And what exactly are the Republicans going to do about an emboldened Iran? War? Another?
One of the things that would make the GoP attractive again, if they could be trusted, was to announce as a party that their foreign/military policy is broken. Yes, to actually admit Iraq and Afghanistan were a cluster.
I’m not looking for someone to promise me he’s prepared to borrow trillions more to fight another war. The GoP will lose the world protector mindset, or they will simply…lose.
[quote]Jeff R wrote:
The libertarian movement is going nowhere. Let’s get that straight.
[/quote]
This is completly up to us.
I am prepared for this reality. It doesn’t matter to me. My crusade will be much more active over the next two years. I am going to try and influence my circle of friends in hope that they will do the same.
Correct. But not reversable. We always have the constitution to fall back on. This alone makes our democracy safe in some sense to democratic socialism. The consitution may sleeping right now, but it is their as justification for changes that need to be made.
[quote]
If you think the Republicans differ only in “social” issues, I think it’s time for you to check again.
[quote]
Check what? I am only going by the voting record of the Republicans and their actions.
I have thought about quite a bit.
How many republicans voted for the bailout? Who’s administration was pushing for the bailout? Not conservative
What did Republicans do while holding power in the the executive and legislative branch? Did they behave like conservatives?
What about the pork in the current budget? Is Republicans accounting for 40% conservative?
Again, winning an election or two by being liberal enough to catch a few independent voters, is not going to keep up from following the path we are on. It will only slow it. We have the opportunity to fall a bit faster for a time and then reverse direction.
I will still vote for Republicans that are truly conservative thinkers. I will not vote for Neocons or popular puppets that may appear to be conservatives, but have no idea why they are. These individuals can be steered by public opinion and their party.
We need uncompromising conservatives that will be driven by nothing but reason and reality. This is much harder to do, as it requires educating the voting public, but it is the only way back to the Republic for which we stand.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Jeff R wrote:
Not to mention an emboldened iran.
And what exactly are the Republicans going to do about an emboldened Iran? War? Another?
One of the things that would make the GoP attractive again, if they could be trusted, was to announce as a party that their foreign/military policy is broken. Yes, to actually admit Iraq and Afghanistan were a cluster.
I’m not looking for someone to promise me he’s prepared to borrow trillions more to fight another war. The GoP will lose the world protector mindset, or they will simply…lose.
[/quote]
Aggressive dictators are emboldened by perceived weakness.
You tell me which party you would fear more if you were the President of iran.
I’ve asked for 7 years what the alternative to invading Iraq would be. I’ve yet to get an answer that wasn’t either flippant/unworkable/or immensely dangerous.
JeffR
[quote]dhickey wrote:
Jeff R wrote:
The libertarian movement is going nowhere. Let’s get that straight.
This is completly up to us.
I know you are on a crusade, but, it’s likely to be lonely.
I am prepared for this reality. It doesn’t matter to me. My crusade will be much more active over the next two years. I am going to try and influence my circle of friends in hope that they will do the same.
Now, if you, who are MUCH closer in ideology to a Republican keep voting in “protest,” our transition to lenin’s Government will be COMPLETE.
Correct. But not reversable. We always have the constitution to fall back on. This alone makes our democracy safe in some sense to democratic socialism. The consitution may sleeping right now, but it is their as justification for changes that need to be made.
If you think the Republicans differ only in “social” issues, I think it’s time for you to check again.
Check what? I am only going by the voting record of the Republicans and their actions.
In essence, you are doing nothing but de facto handing your vote to the democrats.
Think about it.
JeffR
I have thought about quite a bit.
How many republicans voted for the bailout? Who’s administration was pushing for the bailout? Not conservative
What did Republicans do while holding power in the the executive and legislative branch? Did they behave like conservatives?
What about the pork in the current budget? Is Republicans accounting for 40% conservative?
Again, winning an election or two by being liberal enough to catch a few independent voters, is not going to keep up from following the path we are on. It will only slow it. We have the opportunity to fall a bit faster for a time and then reverse direction.
I will still vote for Republicans that are truly conservative thinkers. I will not vote for Neocons or popular puppets that may appear to be conservatives, but have no idea why they are. These individuals can be steered by public opinion and their party.
We need uncompromising conservatives that will be driven by nothing but reason and reality. This is much harder to do, as it requires educating the voting public, but it is the only way back to the Republic for which we stand.
[/quote]
I suppose the question you must ask yourself is this: Did all Republicans vote for the spending bill?
Which party voted against it?
How many House Members, for instance, voted against it. Which party had a 100% no vote in the House?
Finally, if your litmus test is the bailouts, then how about Mark Sanford?
Or, is your crusade blinding you to the fact that there are still REAL CONSERVATIVES in the party.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
dhickey wrote:
Those waiting for the GOP to come around are going to be waiting a very long time. If conservatives really want to steer the GOP they will start supporting the Libertarian Party.
I’ve made up my mind to go with the CP. Heck alot closer to Conservatism than the LP.[/quote]
Agreed. I voted Baldwin for President in NH last November (write in, sadly). Libertarianism DOES NOT equal conservatism, especially not the Reason magazine, libertine style. That being said, libertarianism may become the best option for conservatives if the Left truly has won the culture war.
[quote]Jeff R wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Jeff R wrote:
Not to mention an emboldened iran.
And what exactly are the Republicans going to do about an emboldened Iran? War? Another?
One of the things that would make the GoP attractive again, if they could be trusted, was to announce as a party that their foreign/military policy is broken. Yes, to actually admit Iraq and Afghanistan were a cluster.
I’m not looking for someone to promise me he’s prepared to borrow trillions more to fight another war. The GoP will lose the world protector mindset, or they will simply…lose.
Aggressive dictators are emboldened by perceived weakness.
You tell me which party you would fear more if you were the President of iran.
I’ve asked for 7 years what the alternative to invading Iraq would be. I’ve yet to get an answer that wasn’t either flippant/unworkable/or immensely dangerous.
JeffR
[/quote]
Uh, not invading Iraq? Look, at this point I’d rather you and the GoP stick to your guns with the invade first, figure out stuff later, policy. The CP, and, yes, the LP will be happy to snatch up the castoffs and the disgruntled.
See, your implication is that we will fight Iran. Heck, maybe even Pakistan and N. Korea. I mean, not invading isn’t even an alternative, I guess. Not when one can brainstorm hypothetical attacks from one of these nations, maybe, possibly, happening at some point in the future. Good luck getting creditors for your wars. After all, the taxpayer is already going to be tapped out paying for past Republican and/or Democrat governance.
[quote]Jeff R wrote:
dhickey wrote:
Jeff R wrote:
The libertarian movement is going nowhere. Let’s get that straight.
This is completly up to us.
I know you are on a crusade, but, it’s likely to be lonely.
I am prepared for this reality. It doesn’t matter to me. My crusade will be much more active over the next two years. I am going to try and influence my circle of friends in hope that they will do the same.
Now, if you, who are MUCH closer in ideology to a Republican keep voting in “protest,” our transition to lenin’s Government will be COMPLETE.
Correct. But not reversable. We always have the constitution to fall back on. This alone makes our democracy safe in some sense to democratic socialism. The consitution may sleeping right now, but it is their as justification for changes that need to be made.
If you think the Republicans differ only in “social” issues, I think it’s time for you to check again.
Check what? I am only going by the voting record of the Republicans and their actions.
In essence, you are doing nothing but de facto handing your vote to the democrats.
Think about it.
JeffR
I have thought about quite a bit.
How many republicans voted for the bailout? Who’s administration was pushing for the bailout? Not conservative
What did Republicans do while holding power in the the executive and legislative branch? Did they behave like conservatives?
What about the pork in the current budget? Is Republicans accounting for 40% conservative?
Again, winning an election or two by being liberal enough to catch a few independent voters, is not going to keep up from following the path we are on. It will only slow it. We have the opportunity to fall a bit faster for a time and then reverse direction.
I will still vote for Republicans that are truly conservative thinkers. I will not vote for Neocons or popular puppets that may appear to be conservatives, but have no idea why they are. These individuals can be steered by public opinion and their party.
We need uncompromising conservatives that will be driven by nothing but reason and reality. This is much harder to do, as it requires educating the voting public, but it is the only way back to the Republic for which we stand.
I suppose the question you must ask yourself is this: Did all Republicans vote for the spending bill?
[/quote]
The onese I had a chance to vote for did.
Doesn’t matter. I can only vote for a select number. This last go around it was McCain, Coleman, and Paulson (new). Ramsted voted for the bailout but left office this term. Everyone that represents me voted for the bailout.
It’s not my limus test. Merely and example. I tract every vote everyone of my representatives makes. I also send them emails before and after every vote. I have sent out far more negative emails to my representatives than positive.
[/quote]
Or, is your crusade blinding you to the fact that there are still REAL CONSERVATIVES in the party.
[/quote]
Nope. We should certainly continue to vote for real conservatives. There just aren’t that many of them. We have one here in MN but she is not in my district. Eric Paulson has already let me down.
If you think a true conservative with a thorough knowledge of history and economics is going to make it to the white house, you are dreaming.
Jeff, you sure you like this guy? Did AmCon misquote him? Honest question.
He also deviates from the Republican line on foreign policy. In Congress, he opposed Clinton’s intervention in Kosovo. And he was one of only two Republicans to vote against the 1998 resolution to make regime change in Iraq the official policy of the United States. He says that it was a “protest vote” in which he tried to reassert the legislature?s war-declaring powers. [b]When asked about the invasion of Iraq, he extends his critique beyond the constitutional niceties. “I don’t believe in preemptive war,” he says flatly. “For us to hold the moral high ground in the world, our default position must be defensive.”[/b]
http://www.amconmag.com/article/2009/mar/09/00006/
I might just like this guy! I’ll keep an eye on him?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Jeff, you sure you like this guy? Did AmCon misquote him? Honest question.
He also deviates from the Republican line on foreign policy. In Congress, he opposed Clinton’s intervention in Kosovo. And he was one of only two Republicans to vote against the 1998 resolution to make regime change in Iraq the official policy of the United States. He says that it was a “protest vote” in which he tried to reassert the legislature?s war-declaring powers. [b]When asked about the invasion of Iraq, he extends his critique beyond the constitutional niceties. “I don’t believe in preemptive war,” he says flatly. “For us to hold the moral high ground in the world, our default position must be defensive.”[/b]
http://www.amconmag.com/article/2009/mar/09/00006/
I might just like this guy! I’ll keep an eye on him?[/quote]
Yeah, just saw that he’s the American Conservative cover story, will get to that tonight. I’m curious though where he publicly stood on the Iraq War, when it was a lot more politically dangerous for a Republican to take a stand than against Clinton’s interventions.