Mandatory H1n1 Vaccines

[quote]malonetd wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
tom63 wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
tom63 wrote:
I never got a flu shot and never will unless I am mandated. you cannot protect against every strain. they often make you sick. And I’ve never had the flu. Ever.

These aren’t major pandemics, they are flus and they happen every year.

Why do it when it’s mandated?

mike

Loss of professional license, since I’m a health care provider, a chiropractor for example. Believe me, they would write things in like that.

Fair statement; I suppose we all have our own hill to die on…

mike

Along these same lines, didn’t you take the flu vaccine in the Marine Corps? Or anthrax for that matter?[/quote]

When I was in I took every shot they told me to. My political turn around from being a party-line Republican has been pretty much over the last 4 years or so and I’m turning 29 in October. I did end up worming my way around anthrax. The bottom line here though is that when you sign up you consent to losing a lot of your liberties. Honestly I’d take the damn shots to go back in if that were on the table. My wife and child don’t get that option when some unelected bureacrat(not that being elected makes it much better) dictates that my family is supposed to be used as a pin cushion.

mike

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
tom63 wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
tom63 wrote:
I never got a flu shot and never will unless I am mandated. you cannot protect against every strain. they often make you sick. And I’ve never had the flu. Ever.

These aren’t major pandemics, they are flus and they happen every year.

Why do it when it’s mandated?

mike

Loss of professional license, since I’m a health care provider, a chiropractor for example. Believe me, they would write things in like that.

Fair statement; I suppose we all have our own hill to die on…

mike[/quote]

Yep

[quote]BrownTrout wrote:
The bad part of the flu was that it killed people with stronger immune systems, leaving the young and elderly less affected. I don’t understand why it would be made mandatory to receive the vaccine though. If everybody els is vaccinated and the vaccine actually works who gives a shit if I would want to risk it? [/quote]

Most vaccines are not 100% effective on an individual basis. They usually work by herd immunity. So if enough people have a vaccine which reduces their risk of infection by 80% the disease doesn’t spread. But if a lower proportion of a population have been immunised the herd effect doesn’t work and even people who have been injected are still at risk.

So yes if I had contact you I would damn sure want you to get the shot nearly as much as me.

Trouble is over here in the UK they want to only immunise childern, old and pregnent. Not ideal if the disease is actually going to kill the young healthy types (ie those that actually work and pay taxes)…

[quote]enchilnada wrote:
Squalene was never added to the anthrax vaccines and to date, the cause of Gulf War Syndrome is unknown. Although, some have investigated and suspect chronic exposure to the combination of pyridostigmine bromide, DEET, and permethrin. The myth that squalene was included in very small or trace amounts (which makes no sense as it’s not enough to work as an effective adjuvant) in the anthrax vaccine stems from the fact that squalene contamination readily occurs on laboratory equipment after being handled by humans (we leave it on objects after we touch them as we produce squalene in our body and consume it in our diet). If you’ve ever worked in an analytical lab and didn’t bother to use hexane to clean the glass equipment or were lazy, you’re going to see squalene with GC-MS equipment. It’s just a common contaminant in those cases. And again, this is why they only found trace amounts of it, not nearly enough to make it an effective adjuvant. It has also been shown that a significant portion of the human population already produces antibodies to squalene.

Thimerosal has not been shown to contribute to autism or any of the other nonsense perpetuated over and over by conspiracy theorists and such. And the autism is caused by “X” crowd continually shifts their assertions after scientific data are gathered to refute them…if it wasn’t the vaccine itself (MMR) then it had to be the preservative and if wasn’t that then it was another vaccine and if it wasn’t that then it was antibiotics. The truth is that, just as with the Gulf War Syndrome, the cause of autism isn’t known.

Regarding the H1N1, the last I checked (not on wacko and unsubstantiated websites) it was not going to contain squalene if for no other reason than the FDA has not approved its use as an adjuvant here in the US. I know the international community has expressed concern that the US may not use adjuvants and risk “hogging” up limited resources. This is all ignoring the fact that there is no good evidence to suggest that squalene used as an adjuvant is harmful to begin with (Europe has safely used it).
[/quote]

Exp Mol Pathol. 2000 Feb;68(1):55-64

this is the primary study looking at squalene, this was not some conspiracy it was used in the licensed anthrax vaccine and not in trace amounts, as an adjuvant,

thimerosal is a mercury salt, used at about 100parts per million as a preservative or antimicrobial. it is mandated by the FDA in all mutlidose vials.

oh and enchilnada go back to novartis or the dod , 1 post lets not make it obvious we are trying to cover our ass.

[quote]apbt55 wrote:
enchilnada wrote:
Squalene was never added to the anthrax vaccines and to date, the cause of Gulf War Syndrome is unknown. Although, some have investigated and suspect chronic exposure to the combination of pyridostigmine bromide, DEET, and permethrin. The myth that squalene was included in very small or trace amounts (which makes no sense as it’s not enough to work as an effective adjuvant) in the anthrax vaccine stems from the fact that squalene contamination readily occurs on laboratory equipment after being handled by humans (we leave it on objects after we touch them as we produce squalene in our body and consume it in our diet). If you’ve ever worked in an analytical lab and didn’t bother to use hexane to clean the glass equipment or were lazy, you’re going to see squalene with GC-MS equipment. It’s just a common contaminant in those cases. And again, this is why they only found trace amounts of it, not nearly enough to make it an effective adjuvant. It has also been shown that a significant portion of the human population already produces antibodies to squalene.

Thimerosal has not been shown to contribute to autism or any of the other nonsense perpetuated over and over by conspiracy theorists and such. And the autism is caused by “X” crowd continually shifts their assertions after scientific data are gathered to refute them…if it wasn’t the vaccine itself (MMR) then it had to be the preservative and if wasn’t that then it was another vaccine and if it wasn’t that then it was antibiotics. The truth is that, just as with the Gulf War Syndrome, the cause of autism isn’t known.

Regarding the H1N1, the last I checked (not on wacko and unsubstantiated websites) it was not going to contain squalene if for no other reason than the FDA has not approved its use as an adjuvant here in the US. I know the international community has expressed concern that the US may not use adjuvants and risk “hogging” up limited resources. This is all ignoring the fact that there is no good evidence to suggest that squalene used as an adjuvant is harmful to begin with (Europe has safely used it).

Exp Mol Pathol. 2000 Feb;68(1):55-64

this is the primary study looking at squalene, this was not some conspiracy it was used in the licensed anthrax vaccine and not in trace amounts, as an adjuvant, [/quote]

Have you even read the study you’re citing? Let us first ignore that FDA, WHO and the Institute of Medicine have all done their part to dimiss this nonsense. They must all be “in on it” anyhow. Instead, let’s just directly cite from the paper you reference:

“It is important to note that our laboratory-based investigations do not establish that squalene was added as adjuvant to any vaccine used in military or other personnel who served in the Persian Gulf War era. Several investigators have speculated that GWS is the result of either exposure of chemicals, chemical weapons, or to biological agents encountered in the Persian Gulf.”

“Further studies are required to define the role of ASA, if any, in the pathogenesis of GWS.”

Did you not read their later paper which actually contradicts their earlier findings (and is the ultimate reason why they have not published anything since)? Or, for that matter, where they point to the fact that only trace amounts were found (in the low ppb range) in only some of the vials in some of the lots, just as I have said before? And that many have questioned whether these trace amounts could have any effect? This is taken directly from their second and last paper published:

“The amount of squalene, in four of the five lots of anthrax vaccine for which we found antibodies, was determined by the FDA to be 10-83 parts per billion. These levels have been dismissed as too low to have an immunological effect. It is true that the precise biological significance of low levels remains to be determined, and in what context, but we suggest that
they cannot be dismissed summarily.”

Probably the most sad thing is that so many argue, citing their study, without ever knowing that they never argued most of the things that people say. I sure would hate it if people were citing my data and conclusions as evidence for arguments that I never made. They proposed a hypothesis as has been done throughout the history of science and their hypothesis was never able to be validated. It is as simple as that.

Here are more recent studies which I would highly recommend reading:

J Pharm Biomed Anal. 2006 Oct 11;42(4):494-9

J Immunol Methods. 2004 Mar;286(1-2):47-67.

Vaccine. 2009 Jun 12;27(29):3921-6.

[quote]apbt55 wrote:
thimerosal is a mercury salt, used at about 100parts per million as a preservative or antimicrobial. it is mandated by the FDA in all mutlidose vials.[/quote]

Of which I am well aware. I’m not sure why you bothered to mention that as the only thing I ever mentioned about thimerosal was the following where I am pointing out that the inclusion of it in vaccines has never been linked to autism.

“Thimerosal has not been shown to contribute to autism or any of the other nonsense perpetuated over and over by conspiracy theorists and such. And the autism is caused by “X” crowd continually shifts their assertions after scientific data are gathered to refute them…if it wasn’t the vaccine itself (MMR) then it had to be the preservative and if wasn’t that then it was another vaccine and if it wasn’t that then it was antibiotics. The truth is that, just as with the Gulf War Syndrome, the cause of autism isn’t known.”

[quote]apbt55 wrote:
oh and enchilnada go back to novartis or the dod , 1 post lets not make it obvious we are trying to cover our ass.[/quote]

Yes, I read studies and question conspiracy theory nonsense and outright misinformation, so I MUST be working for “them”.

I only posted because it gets annoying when people present misinformation, half-truths and outright lies. A scientist’s job is to look at the data as it is presented, not to mold the findings of others into what they want to believe.

If someone doesn’t want to get a specific vaccine, that is their right. But, I’m not going to let them give me some false reason as to why and then disseminate that to others that might very well have gone to get immunized but decided not to. The Internet is rife with this sort of garbage.

So, Enchilnada, just out of curiosity, what is your stake in this debate?

Are you, like apbt55, a scientist in the pharmaceutical industry? Perhaps a stockholder in a pharmaceutical company? Are you a medical doctor? A government agent perhaps?

Or are you just a civic-minded American who just wants to see all his fellow citizens jumping onto the vaccination bandwagon?

I’m seriously curious. What kind of person joins a bodybuilding website for the apparent sole purpose of shilling for a flu vaccine on the political forum?

And now I see that you posted a semi-answer to my question shortly before my post went up.

Fair enough.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
So, Enchilnada, just out of curiosity, what is your stake in this debate?

Are you, like apbt55, a scientist in the pharmaceutical industry? Perhaps a stockholder in a pharmaceutical company? Are you a medical doctor? A government agent perhaps?

Or are you just a civic-minded American who just wants to see all his fellow citizens jumping onto the vaccination bandwagon?

I’m seriously curious. What kind of person joins a bodybuilding website for the apparent sole purpose of shilling for a flu vaccine on the political forum?[/quote]

Oh, I get it. I’m the first person in the history of this forum that “lurks” and after seeing something that gets me riled up, I decide to post, so I must be one of “them”. Right?

I am an independent scientist and I certainly don’t work for any company that has any interest in selling vaccines. And secondly, I am a citizen that doesn’t want to see people jumping on unfounded claims that could ultimately prove to be very dangerous.

Look, I’ll tell you right now that unless this current H1N1 virus becomes more virulent (at least moreso than the standard seasonal influenza), I won’t be getting vaccinated. The data, at this point, just don’t point to the need for it outside of specific groups that will be vulnerable (more data are needed here but it’s started to become clearer). I’m not that frightened of the current H1N1. A case in point, my sister and her tyke were both infected with H1N1 not too many months ago and made sure to get extra time around them (I hardly see them anymore). I was fine and they both recovered without needing much more than a short course of anti-virals (which likely didn’t do much anyhow).

On the other hand,

[quote]enchilnada wrote:

If someone doesn’t want to get a specific vaccine, that is their right.

[/quote]

There we agree. However, take a quick look at the title of this thread. The topic under discussion is mandatory H1N1 vaccinations, in which one might not have the right to refuse vaccination.

You may inject yourself and your family with thimerosal, thalidomide or thallium to your heart’s content, and I will defend your right to do so.

Just so long as you don’t suggest that I do the same.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
On the other hand,

enchilnada wrote:

If someone doesn’t want to get a specific vaccine, that is their right.

There we agree. However, take a quick look at the title of this thread. The topic under discussion is [/i]mandatory[/i] H1N1 vaccinations, in which one might not have the right to refuse vaccination.

You may inject yourself and your family with thimerosal, thalidomide or thallium to your heart’s content, and I will defend your right to do so.

Just so long as you don’t suggest that I do the same.[/quote]

Thalidomide, I don’t need and I hope that I never require it as you really don’t want the diseases that it can help with. But, I suppose that could be said for plenty of drugs.

No, I would not suggest that you do the same, only that you not try to provide false reasons and spread these false reasons as though they were true and founded in solid science when they are not.

It’s like I told my boss (the misses) when we had a “discussion” about getting text messaging on her phone. She tried to give me all of these ridiculous reasons as to why she “needed it”, such as “my friends won’t keep in contact if I don’t have it” and “it’s just so much easier than sending an e-mail” and “it’s just so convenient to set things up while I’m at work”, etc. In the end, I told her that if you want text messaging on your phone, just get it and tell me it’s because you want it and that you really don’t have a solid reason as to why you need it and that’s that…end of argument.

[quote]enchilnada wrote:
Oh, I get it. I’m the first person in the history of this forum that “lurks” and after seeing something that gets me riled up, I decide to post, so I must be one of “them”. Right?[/quote]

Nah, you wouldn’t be the first.

Admirable. I feel the same way about the unfounded claims of vaccine manufacturers.

Then we agree again.

Glad to hear it.

Sorry to have misjudged you, Enchilnada. You seem like an all right guy. Welcome to the site.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
enchilnada wrote:
Oh, I get it. I’m the first person in the history of this forum that “lurks” and after seeing something that gets me riled up, I decide to post, so I must be one of “them”. Right?

Nah, you wouldn’t be the first.

I am an independent scientist and I certainly don’t work for any company that has any interest in selling vaccines. And secondly, I am a citizen that doesn’t want to see people jumping on unfounded claims that could ultimately prove to be very dangerous.

Admirable. I feel the same way about the unfounded claims of vaccine manufacturers.

Look, I’ll tell you right now that unless this current H1N1 virus becomes more virulent (at least moreso than the standard seasonal influenza), I won’t be getting vaccinated. The data, at this point, just don’t point to the need for it outside of specific groups that will be vulnerable (more data are needed here but it’s started to become clearer). I’m not that frightened of the current H1N1.

Then we agree again.

A case in point, my sister and her tyke were both infected with H1N1 not too many months ago and made sure to get extra time around them (I hardly see them anymore). I was fine and they both recovered without needing much more than a short course of anti-virals (which likely didn’t do much anyhow).

Glad to hear it.

Sorry to have misjudged you, Enchilnada. You seem like an all right guy. Welcome to the site.[/quote]

No worries. Back at you! And thanks!

Thanks for clearing things up.

[quote]apbt55 wrote:
enchilnada wrote:
Squalene was never added to the anthrax vaccines and to date, the cause of Gulf War Syndrome is unknown. Although, some have investigated and suspect chronic exposure to the combination of pyridostigmine bromide, DEET, and permethrin. The myth that squalene was included in very small or trace amounts (which makes no sense as it’s not enough to work as an effective adjuvant) in the anthrax vaccine stems from the fact that squalene contamination readily occurs on laboratory equipment after being handled by humans (we leave it on objects after we touch them as we produce squalene in our body and consume it in our diet). If you’ve ever worked in an analytical lab and didn’t bother to use hexane to clean the glass equipment or were lazy, you’re going to see squalene with GC-MS equipment. It’s just a common contaminant in those cases. And again, this is why they only found trace amounts of it, not nearly enough to make it an effective adjuvant. It has also been shown that a significant portion of the human population already produces antibodies to squalene.

Thimerosal has not been shown to contribute to autism or any of the other nonsense perpetuated over and over by conspiracy theorists and such. And the autism is caused by “X” crowd continually shifts their assertions after scientific data are gathered to refute them…if it wasn’t the vaccine itself (MMR) then it had to be the preservative and if wasn’t that then it was another vaccine and if it wasn’t that then it was antibiotics. The truth is that, just as with the Gulf War Syndrome, the cause of autism isn’t known.

Regarding the H1N1, the last I checked (not on wacko and unsubstantiated websites) it was not going to contain squalene if for no other reason than the FDA has not approved its use as an adjuvant here in the US. I know the international community has expressed concern that the US may not use adjuvants and risk “hogging” up limited resources. This is all ignoring the fact that there is no good evidence to suggest that squalene used as an adjuvant is harmful to begin with (Europe has safely used it).

Exp Mol Pathol. 2000 Feb;68(1):55-64

this is the primary study looking at squalene, this was not some conspiracy it was used in the licensed anthrax vaccine and not in trace amounts, as an adjuvant, [/quote]

http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/adjuvants/squalene/questions_and_answers/en/index.html

"One published report suggested that some veterans who received anthrax vaccines developed anti-squalene antibodies and these antibodies caused disabilities.

It is now known that squalene was not added to the vaccines administered to these veterans, and technical deficiencies in the report suggesting an association have been published."