[quote]pookie wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
and “adapt or die,”
To be fair, even if you adapt, you’ll still die.[/quote]
Yes, but when I die I’ll be with my Lord?
Where will you be Pookie? With Darwin?
P.S. I’ll answer your “great” question. I have said it over and over again in other threads:
When a State Legislature through the normal democratic process passes a law in their state to allow whatever, that is the business of that state. Of course I would say that is the law in that state. I still won’t agree with it, but that is democracy. That is correct.
The problem is that nowhere is this even close to happening. I know your strategy is for the hearts and minds of the young people, and that is why I am adamant to take up the fight.
Fortunately, I work with a lot of young people and I give them both sides of the Creation / Evolution issue.
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Yes, but when I die I’ll be with my Lord?[/quote]
Of course not. He’s an imaginary being. When you die, you’re dead.
Darwin’s dead. And when I die, I’ll be dead too.
See how simple reality is?
[quote]P.S. I’ll answer your “great” question. I have said it over and over again in other threads:
When a State Legislature through the normal democratic process passes a law in their state to allow whatever, that is the business of that state. Of course I would say that is the law in that state. I still won’t agree with it, but that is democracy. That is correct.[/quote]
That’s the longest fucking “yes” I’ve seen in a while, but fair enough.
[quote]The problem is that nowhere is this even close to happening. I know your strategy is for the hearts and minds of the young people, and that is why I am adamant to take up the fight.
Fortunately, I work with a lot of young people and I give them both sides of the Creation / Evolution issue.
Happy now?
[/quote]
No. Poor kids. Hopefully you get them at an age where they’re smart enough to see right through your bullshit.
You are free to have your views and live your lifestyle, within the law, as is everyone else.
I think what you are complaining about is that I really don’t want to have to face scriptures and preaching in my life, because it is deeply uninteresting, perhaps offensive, to me.
I have my own beliefs, and mindless prattling based on several thousand year old human interprations of religion, from what can only be described as a dark historic period, has very little to offer to me today.
Why does my tolerance have to involve active participation in believing as you do or in listening to impromptu scriptures or preachings?
You live your life the way you want, and let other people live their life the way they want… that is tolerance. Injecting your value system, your beliefs, into my life repeatedly and unwantedly, is not tolerance either.
So, in closing, could you give an example of intolerance on my part? Other than voicing my views when the subject has arisen, what have I done that you would consider intolerant?
[quote]vroom wrote:
Right Vroom, you argue that I and other people of faith must be tolerant toward everyone’s sinful behavior and “adapt or die,” while YOU and others like you (e.g. Pookie) can be as intolerant of Christians and people who believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. So in arguing for tolerance, you clearly show intolerance…what’s up with that?
Actually Steveo, I think you are mistaken.
You are free to have your views and live your lifestyle, within the law, as is everyone else.
I think what you are complaining about is that I really don’t want to have to face scriptures and preaching in my life, because it is deeply uninteresting, perhaps offensive, to me.
I have my own beliefs, and mindless prattling based on several thousand year old human interprations of religion, from what can only be described as a dark historic period, has very little to offer to me today.
Why does my tolerance have to involve active participation in believing as you do or in listening to impromptu scriptures or preachings?
You live your life the way you want, and let other people live their life the way they want… that is tolerance. Injecting your value system, your beliefs, into my life repeatedly and unwantedly, is not tolerance either.
So, in closing, could you give an example of intolerance on my part? Other than voicing my views when the subject has arisen, what have I done that you would consider intolerant?[/quote]
(1) Re-read your posts on the threads that deal with Christianity and faith.
(2) Have you posted on threads avocating atheism, Buddism, etc. the way you post and complain about us “fundamentalist Christians?” I can’t find any. Again, why just fundamental Christianity?
Vroom, if you don’t want to be “preached at” then don’t go to church, don’t read the Bible, and don’t reply on these threads. Why do you do so? Do you really understand what is missing in your life? Are you ignorant of the eternality of our soul’s existence, or are you (like Pookie) just resigned to die and then that is all…
…where is the hope?
Again, your intolerance is shown by the way you attack those who are proclaiming God’s Word while accepting the views of those who are opposed to God. That is intolerance.
Finally, just so we can be clear. Yes, I believe all of this with all of my heart and soul and mind. However, the Bible is God’s message, not mine. Your argument is not with me – “don’t kill the messenger.” You argument is with God. Go fight with Him…
[quote]pookie wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Yes, but when I die I’ll be with my Lord?
Of course not. He’s an imaginary being. When you die, you’re dead.
That’s YOUR opinion, Pookie. Far from fact, unless you willing to say that “anyting Pookie believes is fact.”
Where will you be Pookie? With Darwin?
Darwin’s dead. And when I die, I’ll be dead too.
And…? Where is your hope?
See how simple reality is?
P.S. I’ll answer your “great” question. I have said it over and over again in other threads:
When a State Legislature through the normal democratic process passes a law in their state to allow whatever, that is the business of that state. Of course I would say that is the law in that state. I still won’t agree with it, but that is democracy. That is correct.
That’s the longest fucking “yes” I’ve seen in a while, but fair enough.
The problem is that nowhere is this even close to happening. I know your strategy is for the hearts and minds of the young people, and that is why I am adamant to take up the fight.
Fortunately, I work with a lot of young people and I give them both sides of the Creation / Evolution issue.
Happy now?
No. Poor kids. Hopefully you get them at an age where they’re smart enough to see right through your bullshit.
Why the insult? Do I insult your opinions by calling them BS? What is it about God Pookie that makes you so angry. I have a sense that you are a really great guy, but when it comes to issues of faith, you change into this rambling, angry individual. What did God ever do to you? What did any true born-again believer ever do to you that was wrong that you are so angry? Why do you WANT to believe God is fake? Wouldn’t it be great if the Bible was true?
[/quote]
Pookie,
I tried to answer your answers above, but I am not sure how to do it, so I am adding some thoughts here as well.
Why are you so angry at God? Why do you seem to WANT to believe that God is a fake? Wouldn’t it be great if Heaven was true and you could go there?
Where is your hope?
Why the constant insults toward people who believe like me? What bad has anyone who believes like me done to you in the past?
What is up with your attitude here. Are you so blinded by Darwinism that you can’t see God?
[quote]pookie wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Shall I expalain it to you or do you want to read the all of 19 so that you can understand it yourself.
Go for it.
[/quote]
First the important verses:
Jeremiah 19:5 “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal - something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.”
Jeremiah 19:7 “In this place I will ruin the plans of Judah and Jerusalem. I will make them fall by the sword before their enemies, at the hands of those who seek their lives, and I will give their carcasses as food to the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth.”
Okay so what’s going on?
Very simple:
The Hebrews in the city of Topeth were so corrupted and demented by the worship of foreign gods that they sacrificed their own children on the alter to Baal. Not only human sacrifice, but the human sacrifice of children! What can be more depraved than that?
God was making it clear that this was so sick that he uses the analogy of “nor did it even enter my mind”. He is so upset with them that he declares judgment on them by allowing their enemies to besiege the city.
It is prophesied that not only will they be killed, but during the siege they will be so hungry that they will eat the children. It is not really a stretch to eat them under these horrible conditions being that they regularly burned them on the alter to Baal in ritualistic ceremonies. We also believe that the children were already dead from the lack of food.
It is in essence giving them more of their own depravity.
You see, after a while, a long while the Lord will give a man (or woman) up to his own depravity.
Not good.
Anyway that’s what that particular verse is all about. If you have something constructive to add I would love to read it.
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
(1) Re-read your posts on the threads that deal with Christianity and faith.
(2) Have you posted on threads avocating atheism, Buddism, etc. the way you post and complain about us “fundamentalist Christians?” I can’t find any. Again, why just fundamental Christianity?
[/quote]
Are there people injecting scriptures into those threads?
I have found fundamentalist Christians to inject themself into my life or the lives of others more than an Athiest or a Buddhist.
Read on, and you’ll see what I mean…
[quote]Vroom, if you don’t want to be “preached at” then don’t go to church, don’t read the Bible, and don’t reply on these threads. Why do you do so? Do you really understand what is missing in your life? Are you ignorant of the eternality of our soul’s existence, or are you (like Pookie) just resigned to die and then that is all…
…where is the hope?[/quote]
Oh look, somebody is making value judgments about other’s belief systems. Wow, how intolerant.
Alternately, if you don’t like what I write, stop using the T-Nation site as your pulpit or stop reading threads I reply to. It’s a bodybuilding site with a politics area…
What a ridiculous series of statements you have made.
It is only as intolerant as your own actions in this regard. I believe you are attacking those that do not share your faith and belief.
God is not pushing himself into my life or others lives and spreading his message and value judgments whenever he finds an excuse. You do.
In fact, beware. It is almost as if the Bible is revered more than God. You, and other fundamental literalists, may be approaching idolatry – placing the writings of man at higher regard than God himself.
Does the phrase consenting adults mean anything to you?
I know that is pretty difficult concept to grasp. Howabout when a man rams his wife up the ass, which happens a lot in this country, is the world suffering from that deviance too?
Consenting adults.
Those of sound mind making decisions for themselves and consenting to actions with another of sound mind similarly capable of making decisions for themself.
Honestly, this stuff isn’t difficult. Use your head for more than a doorstop some time.
The comparison is fucking moronic. Your support of that comparison is fucking moronic.[/quote]
How do you know the goat was of age? You shouldn’t abuse kids…
Goats can’t sign contracts, therefore can’t get married.
Equating what two men or women do in private to bestiality shows you to be a TSB with shoes.
And yet just a few years ago gay sex was considered just as offense to most as bestiality. But since you follow the crowd, it is now cool, because everyone else thinks it’s cool.
Where was homosexuality considered “just as much an offense” as bestiality except in your closed litle mind?
[/quote]
Where have you been? It was illegal in most all States and just changed a year ago.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Eventually, enlightenment will reach the US too. When a majority of Americans have no problems with it either, you’ll accept the majority’s decision and STFU?
Of course not. That will be about the time they find it necessary to wave the bible in everyones face and fight for their religious views as the law of the land.
Funny, how most of the world has progressed beyond some of the ridiculous concepts contained in religious writings… but the fundamental literalists never will.
Adapt or die.[/quote]
You mean the countries that have higher suicide, drug abuse, and incest rates than the USA? Those are the enlightened countries that have “progressed beyond some of ridiculous concepts contained in religious writings”?
A majority of Americans DON’t WANT it and we also don’t want to be like Canada or Western Europe. We want to be like…America![/quote]
That is why so many Europeans moved here.
Ever wonder why Canada didn’t fill up too? The weather is probably only part of it but the main reason they all came here instead of Canada is because they didn’t want their descendants living in a gay marrying goat fucking society. Or maybe not.
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
That’s YOUR opinion, Pookie.[/quote]
Well, yeah. Who else’s opinion would it be?
Well, I can’t prove it of course.
Hope? I hope to make the most of this life; the only one there is. I hope and do my utmost to be the best husband and father I can be. I hope to live a very long and healthy life.
I hope science eventually cures aging, but I’m not counting on still being around when that happens.
You don’t call them bullshit, but the end result is the same. You dismiss them using fallacious arguments and completely ignore any support presented to you.
Or are you now reading up on those “29 evidences” for macroevolution and working on a reasonable critic of them?
Again with the anger? I went back to read a few of my posts, and I see a little sarcasm, I don’t see anger.
God? Nothing. For reasons cited above.
Apart from injecting pointless Scripture in every thread that goes beyond 2 pages?
I’ll tell you what I find really annoying: You substitute thinking for yourself with pre-digested “morals” from the Bible. You support old, decrepit ideas that might have made sense thousands of years ago, but are completely anachronistic nowadays.
You justify bigotry and discrimination using quotes from the Bible. And you’re convinced that God support your bigoted and discriminatory views.
It’s slowly gettng better, but for thousands of years, the Bible was used to support slavery, sexism, racism, etc.
THAT makes me angry.
The Bible? No. God, sure. A money tree in my back yard would be great to. But wishful thinking is just that: wishes.
Does that mean you’re going to drop all those discussions we where having? I wanna know if my school gets to be tax-exempt, or if I can preach Darwin in your church. I want your opinion on the 29 evidences.
Ah… I just got what you meant when you said you didn’t know how to “answer above.” You need to use the [ quote ] and [ /quote ] tags in the text to have the original appear in grey and the new in yellow. Use as many as you need; just make sure to match each [ quote ] with a later [ /quote ].
Darwinism has nothing to do with it. Millions of scientist believe in Darwinism and also believe in God. There’s no incompatibility between the two. Only the literal interpretation of the Bible poses a problem.
I can’t see God because he’s not there.
Matthew 6:5-6
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
[quote]pookie wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
That’s YOUR opinion, Pookie.
Well, yeah. Who else’s opinion would it be?
Far from fact, unless you willing to say that “anyting Pookie believes is fact.”
Well, I can’t prove it of course.
And…? Where is your hope?
Hope? I hope to make the most of this life; the only one there is. I hope and do my utmost to be the best husband and father I can be. I hope to live a very long and healthy life.
I hope science eventually cures aging, but I’m not counting on still being around when that happens.
Why the insult? Do I insult your opinions by calling them BS?
You don’t call them bullshit, but the end result is the same. You dismiss them using fallacious arguments and completely ignore any support presented to you.
Or are you now reading up on those “29 evidences” for macroevolution and working on a reasonable critic of them?
[/quote]
Actually, I took your advice and purchased “The Blind Watchmaker.” I will read this with as much of an open mind as I can and let you know what I think when I am done.
That is ridiculous! I haven’t supported any of these things. Do you really believe that I agree with slavery and racism? I have never advocated any of these – in fact during my lifetime I have worked to end racial bigotry – even before I became a believer.
The Bible teaches that there is ONE RACE and that is the HUMAN RACE. We all came from the Noah and his sons and therefore no matter what our skin color, hair texture, etc. are, we are all brothers in a true sense.
That is what I believe, so please don’t lump me together with your distorted view of true Christians. Anyone can SAY that they are Christian, but even Jesus said that "ye will know them [true believers] by their fruits [the things that they do in their lifel].
Again, I am not sure what you are trying to get at with this line of thought. Churches are PRIVATE institutions of religious worship and thus should be tax exempt (along with all other religious institutions of other faiths]. In addition, our church belives and teaches the Bible and rejects everything else. We can do this because we are a PRIVATE RELIGIOUS group.
Public schools, on the other hand, are PUBLIC EDUCATIONAL (not indoctrinational) institutions. As such, they are not tax exempt and should seek to present to the children all sides of a debate or all theories in a science class.
Therefore, clearly, seeking either to remove Darwinism from the science class (as I actually would prefer to do) or putting in Creationism and ID if you do not remove it so that the students are educated and not indoctrinated, is NOWHERE the same thing as trying to “preach” Darwin in my church. Looking at what I just presented and the clear contrast, your continued harping on this point is almost laughable. Again, if you want to start your own church called “The First Darwin Church” I would be most happy to grant tax exemption for your group and you can preach Darwin until the cows either come home or evolve into an elephant!
Thanks Pookie for the instruction on how to do this. I always wondered what I was doing wrong…
I love it when you use the Bible – which you think is all BS against me. Since you are now in my “wheelhouse” let me just point out that Jesus was talking to the Jewish religious leaders of his day who were conducting their worship in order to garner attention and position. I am doing none of these things.
I am, however, obeying my Lord’s command of “Go ye into all the world and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things which I have commanded you, and lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world [age].” Matthew 28:19-20
When I say I am praying for you, I really am – not to attract attention, but to let you know that I do really care about people and their eternal destiny. That’s all…
While I am sure there are probably right wing or religious studies designed to decry societies that have removed religion from governance, I really don’t believe it has any bearing on this discussion.
People in all societies are bound to live within the laws. If people are breaking those laws, for whatever reason, then they should be tried and convicted for their crimes.
Whoever argued that moving beyond religious intolerance would excuse people from inappropriate actions in other regards?
By the way, I consider the US (and other western countries) as ones that have moved beyond the writings in the Bible. The religious are basically powerless here. While there is the odd fundamentalist whacko in the western countries, they generally have very little ability to inject themselves into the lives of other people.