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Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

Ugh. This anarcho-libertarian stuff is silly. No borders, except for those mapped out by property owners. No armies, except for those hired by property owners (if they can afford them). So the richest will have the biggest property (borders),the biggest and best equipped armies…Umpteen million private kingdoms. Until one day a couple of these private kingdoms realize they can form a…nation.

A nation compromised of a number of armies, now one. They come up with some common rules (laws). And begin to tear through a couple private libertarian governments of me, myself, and I. A couple others say, “hey, we too could form one of them there nations and get us some of them other people’s stuff (or, simply protect our own)!” Viola, nation/states begin popping up everywhere (again), to provide a common defense for the citizens living within a larger geographical area, against the other nations. That, or simply in order to take the libertarian’s stuff.

102

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Ugh. This anarcho-libertarian stuff is silly. No borders, except for those mapped out by property owners. No armies, except for those hired by property owners (if they can afford them). So the richest will have the biggest property (borders),the biggest and best equipped armies…Umpteen million private kingdoms. Until one day a couple of these private kingdoms realize they can form a…nation.

A nation compromised of a number of armies, now one. They come up with some common rules (laws). And begin to tear through a couple private libertarian governments of me, myself, and I. A couple others say, “hey, we too could form one of them there nations and get us some of them other people’s stuff (or, simply protect our own)!” Viola, nation/states begin popping up everywhere (again), to provide a common defense for the citizens living within a larger geographical area, against the other nations. That, or simply in order to take the libertarian’s stuff. [/quote]

Why would people who wish to be free form a State? It’s like a bunch of wandering cattle deciding they need a fence. Give man a taste of real freedom and I doubt there is any going back.

Freedom does not mean one does not have to remain vigilant in self-defense; it means that we can no longer force others to fight our battles and must take responsibility for ourselves.

103

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Ugh. This anarcho-libertarian stuff is silly. No borders, except for those mapped out by property owners. No armies, except for those hired by property owners (if they can afford them). So the richest will have the biggest property (borders),the biggest and best equipped armies…Umpteen million private kingdoms. Until one day a couple of these private kingdoms realize they can form a…nation.

A nation compromised of a number of armies, now one. They come up with some common rules (laws). And begin to tear through a couple private libertarian governments of me, myself, and I. A couple others say, “hey, we too could form one of them there nations and get us some of them other people’s stuff (or, simply protect our own)!” Viola, nation/states begin popping up everywhere (again), to provide a common defense for the citizens living within a larger geographical area, against the other nations. That, or simply in order to take the libertarian’s stuff.

Why would people who wish to be free form a State? It’s like a bunch of wandering cattle deciding they need a fence. Give man a taste of real freedom and I doubt there is any going back.

Freedom does not mean one does not have to remain vigilant in self-defense; it means that we can no longer force others to fight our battles and must take responsibility for ourselves.[/quote]

Because some will round up all their friends, and decide to rob you, kill you and rape your wife. YOur only means of defence against that is an organized society, with the means to defend itself.

104

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
tg2hbk4488 wrote:
You aren’t even a libertarian thou. You are just an anarchist? crazy nut job. Government has no legitimacy? Govt is always immoral while the corporation is always acting in the interest of the consumer? There should be no country boundaries, people should be able to live anywhere?

Since you didn’t have the balls to directly address anyone I’ll just assume you were directing it at me.

Libertarianism and anarchism are compatible and not competing doctrines. In fact, there are a contingent who would call themselves anarcho-libertarian.

Libertarianism entails the doctrines of liberty which include a set of ethics to achieve it. Anarchism is how people might organize themselves under such an ethic. I subscribe fully to the ideas of liberty; I am a libertarian. I do not believe in the authority of government and believe it is fully unworkable in all circumstances in a free society; I am an anarchist – and I do not deny it to anyone who may ask.

There is no doubt that government is the negation of freedom. There is no other way for it to work. It is alway immoral.

You just tell yourself your libertarian, so people dont think you are the nut job you are!

What is more important: what other people think of you or holding true to principle? What will people think of you if you have no principle?

Do you just post on these political forums because this is the only way to get your message out because in a real face-to-face convo people just walk away after talking to you for ten minutes?

I do it for many reasons – the biggest being that there are many people like you who make it fun. Plus, if I did not you would have no one to call crazy or to talk down to with superiority. I fulfill your need for validation.[/quote]

I have no need for validation. I am simply stating you have crackpot theories. I certainly have principles; I share in the belief that freedom is the ultimate good of man, but I also understand that some freedoms must be given up for safety and order.

Some of your statements are just ridiculous. How is government ALWAYS immoral? Sure, it doesnt act moral all the time, but come on it is never morally acting…please. (Acting morally according to the majority of societies views as moral: i.e. killing is immoral)

Man has never had freedom? Man gave up freedom for law and order? EVERY civilization has realized that unlimited freedom was dangerous, unproductive, and chaotic. I hate to tell you but goverment and law are inventons of man. So obviously if these have existed since the dawn of time and it has not changed yet, then what makes you think that it should or could be changed now. Freedom is great, but everyone has agreed some freedoms must be given up for overall good

105

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
Because some will round up all their friends, and decide to rob you, kill you and rape your wife. YOur only means of defence against that is an organized society, with the means to defend itself.[/quote]

But that happens whether government promises to protect you or not. What’s worse is that government can force you to fight its wars whether it is in your best interest or not. Government is historically the biggest criminal when it comes to rape and plunder.

Freedom does not imply that we are given the means to defend ourselves freely. It only implies that we have the right to do it. We still must produce all that is necessary to do it including training individuals to do it as well.

Organized society does not imply a society that is organized by government. The market is such an organization that occurs spontaneously when individuals are free to act in their own best interests. Family, tribe, or community is also such an organization.

106

[quote]tg2hbk4488 wrote:
I have no need for validation. I am simply stating you have crackpot theories. I certainly have principles; I share in the belief that freedom is the ultimate good of man, but I also understand that some freedoms must be given up for safety and order.[/quote]

That is fine as long as they are voluntarily given up. If you believe in freedom as you say you do then you must remain true to that principle. My freedom isn’t for others to take to use for their own purpose not matter what the intention.

[quote]
Some of your statements are just ridiculous. How is government ALWAYS immoral? Sure, it doesnt act moral all the time, but come on it is never morally acting…please. (Acting morally according to the majority of societies views as moral: i.e. killing is immoral)[/quote]

This is just plain incorrect. Government can only be instituted by force. Force is immoral. Therefore it follows that government is always immoral. By your rational killing would not be immoral if a majority decides that is not. If a majority decided that then I could kill you and your family with no repercussions because I am not acting immorally.

I agree that government is an invention of man that is why I think it is flawed like many other man made inventions. The flaw lies, as I have already stated, in the fact that it can only be instituted by force.

Because a certain few individuals have decided that we need “law and order” and have been strong enough to take it does not make it legitimate. It makes it no more than gang-thuggery.

107

[quote]tg2hbk4488 wrote:
You aren’t even a libertarian thou. You are just an anarchist? crazy nut job. Government has no legitimacy? Govt is always immoral while the corporation is always acting in the interest of the consumer? There should be no country boundaries, people should be able to live anywhere?

You just tell yourself your libertarian, so people dont think you are the nut job you are!

Do you just post on these political forums because this is the only way to get your message out because in a real face-to-face convo people just walk away after talking to you for ten minutes?[/quote]

lol

108

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Ugh. This anarcho-libertarian stuff is silly. No borders, except for those mapped out by property owners. No armies, except for those hired by property owners (if they can afford them).

So the richest will have the biggest property (borders),the biggest and best equipped armies…Umpteen million private kingdoms. Until one day a couple of these private kingdoms realize they can form a…nation.

A nation compromised of a number of armies, now one. They come up with some common rules (laws). And begin to tear through a couple private libertarian governments of me, myself, and I.

A couple others say, “hey, we too could form one of them there nations and get us some of them other people’s stuff (or, simply protect our own)!” Viola, nation/states begin popping up everywhere (again), to provide a common defense for the citizens living within a larger geographical area, against the other nations. That, or simply in order to take the libertarian’s stuff.

Why would people who wish to be free form a State? It’s like a bunch of wandering cattle deciding they need a fence. Give man a taste of real freedom and I doubt there is any going back.

Freedom does not mean one does not have to remain vigilant in self-defense; it means that we can no longer force others to fight our battles and must take responsibility for ourselves.[/quote]

Because Human beings are far more complicated than just wanting freedom, while respecting other’s freedom. They might rather form a nation state capable of defeating Lift’s army (comprised of 2 armed security guards), taking his property, and subjugating him to a life working in their mines. Yours is a pie in the sky utopian vision.

109

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

I do not believe in the authority of government and believe it is fully unworkable in all circumstances in a free society; I am an anarchist – and I do not deny it to anyone who may ask.

There is no doubt that government is the negation of freedom. There is no other way for it to work. It is alway immoral.

What is more important: what other people think of you or holding true to principle? What will people think of you if you have no principle?[/quote]

As a man of principle, with that principle being that you do not believe in the authority of government, I presume you must work in the private sector now?

110

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

I do not believe in the authority of government and believe it is fully unworkable in all circumstances in a free society; I am an anarchist – and I do not deny it to anyone who may ask.

There is no doubt that government is the negation of freedom. There is no other way for it to work. It is alway immoral.

What is more important: what other people think of you or holding true to principle? What will people think of you if you have no principle?

As a man of principle, with that principle being that you do not believe in the authority of government, I presume you must work in the private sector now?
[/quote]
Yes – though it happened well before I came to this conclusion.

111

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Because Human beings are far more complicated than just wanting freedom, while respecting other’s freedom. They might rather form a nation state capable of defeating Lift’s army (comprised of 2 armed security guards), taking his property, and subjugating him to a life working in their mines. Yours is a pie in the sky utopian vision.[/quote]

It does not follow that because life is complicated government is necessary. I can have freedom and you can have a nation State just don’t include me in it or expect me to care about its numerous fake causes.

If there are no aggressions toward each other then there is nothing to worry about – that is unless you have an evil heart and intend to take what doesn’t belong to you.

It is an imaginary thing that nations fight each other. Individuals fight. Government just likes to feed you propaganda that you need it to be free while it enslaves you. It and the ruling class benefit at your expense all the while you wave its flag and praise it in song.

I just laugh at the ignorance of it all.

112

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Because Human beings are far more complicated than just wanting freedom, while respecting other’s freedom. They might rather form a nation state capable of defeating Lift’s army (comprised of 2 armed security guards), taking his property, and subjugating him to a life working in their mines. Yours is a pie in the sky utopian vision.

It does not follow that because life is complicated government is necessary. I can have freedom and you can have a nation State just don’t include me in it or expect me to care about its numerous fake causes.

If there are no aggressions toward each other then there is nothing to worry about – that is unless you have an evil heart and intend to take what doesn’t belong to you.

It is an imaginary thing that nations fight each other. Individuals fight. Government just likes to feed you propaganda that you need it to be free while it enslaves you. It and the ruling class benefit at your expense all the while you wave its flag and praise it in song.

I just laugh at the ignorance of it all.[/quote]

Do you also act on it?

113

[quote]orion wrote:
Do you also act on it?

[/quote]

You mean a declaration of independence? That may be a good idea.

114

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
orion wrote:
Do you also act on it?

You mean a declaration of independence? That may be a good idea.[/quote]

At least you could acknowledge that yes, they want to take your money.

Give them as little as possible. Make them fight for every inch.

115

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Yes – though it happened well before I came to this conclusion.[/quote]

I don’t believe that to be correct, based on your other posts - you continued to rage against the government while collecting a paycheck from the government.

Which is the right answer?

116

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Which is the right answer?
[/quote]

Where I did research was not a government institution - the name not withstanding. Nor did we get government funding for research.

117

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Ugh. This anarcho-libertarian stuff is silly. No borders, except for those mapped out by property owners. No armies, except for those hired by property owners (if they can afford them).

So the richest will have the biggest property (borders),the biggest and best equipped armies…Umpteen million private kingdoms. Until one day a couple of these private kingdoms realize they can form a…nation.

A nation compromised of a number of armies, now one. They come up with some common rules (laws). And begin to tear through a couple private libertarian governments of me, myself, and I.

A couple others say, “hey, we too could form one of them there nations and get us some of them other people’s stuff (or, simply protect our own)!”

Viola, nation/states begin popping up everywhere (again), to provide a common defense for the citizens living within a larger geographical area, against the other nations. That, or simply in order to take the libertarian’s stuff. [/quote]

It is very silly, and almost doesn’t deserve comment, it being little more than the province of middle-aged men going through the “born again” radicalism of a 14 year old mad at their parents.

That said, this anarcho-libertarianism is nothing more than a theoretical form of feudalism - which is no problem as a political system, if you are one of the strong ones.

But, interestingly, those who constantly call for this lawless world run by private lords would be nothing more than chained lapdogs eating the crumbs of whatever their overmasters felt like affording them.

If such a world should ever come to pass, can you imagine where an Orion or a Lifticus would fit in? I can - they would be serving cold drinks to Jabba the Hut.

118

[quote]orion wrote:
Give them as little as possible. Make them fight for every inch.[/quote]

You can imagine the brutality that will end with. Isn’t it just easier and more prudent to my family to work within the system and change it; though I am very tempted to claim the maximum on my W4 and not file next april. My wife isn’t pleased with that idea.

My goal is not toward violence. I just want to be left alone.

119

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Ugh. This anarcho-libertarian stuff is silly. No borders, except for those mapped out by property owners. No armies, except for those hired by property owners (if they can afford them).

So the richest will have the biggest property (borders),the biggest and best equipped armies…Umpteen million private kingdoms. Until one day a couple of these private kingdoms realize they can form a…nation.

A nation compromised of a number of armies, now one. They come up with some common rules (laws). And begin to tear through a couple private libertarian governments of me, myself, and I.

A couple others say, “hey, we too could form one of them there nations and get us some of them other people’s stuff (or, simply protect our own)!” Viola, nation/states begin popping up everywhere (again), to provide a common defense for the citizens living within a larger geographical area, against the other nations. That, or simply in order to take the libertarian’s stuff.

It is very silly, and almost doesn’t deserve comment, it being little more than the province of middle-aged men going through the “born again” radicalism of a 14 year old mad at their parents.

That said, this anarcho-libertarianism is nothing more than a theoretical form of feudalism - which is no problem as a political system, if you are one of the strong ones.

But, interestingly, those who constantly call for this lawless world run by private lords would be nothing more than chained lapdogs eating the crumbs of whatever their overmasters felt like affording them.

If such a world should ever come to pass, can you imagine where an Orion or a Lifticus would fit in? I can - they would be serving cold drinks to Jabba the Hut.

[/quote]

I would drink my wine out of your skull.

That is all the justification I need for you.

I save the rest for civilized people.

120

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
orion wrote:
Give them as little as possible. Make them fight for every inch.

You can imagine the brutality that will end with. Isn’t it just easier and more prudent to my family to work within the system and change it; though I am very tempted to claim the maximum on my W4 and not file next april. My wife isn’t pleased with that idea.

My goal is not toward violence. I just want to be left alone.[/quote]

Cheat on your taxes. Whenever they want something from you, drag your heels…

That actually works…