Listening To The Terrorists

I thought I’d look up some info regarding the Koran and terrorism, rather than try and paraphrase, I’ll just cut and paste and let you know thy own enemy if you truely wish:

[5:32] “…, we decreed for the Children of Israel that anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people. …”

[60:8]"GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.

[8:61]“If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.”

[4:90]“… Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.”

[2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

[2:190] You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.

[2:256] There shall be no compulsion in religion

Barrister:

Getting back to Listening to the Terrorists:

Freedoms or Control? Consider this: that what gave the U.S. “permission” to invade Iraq was Saddam Hussein’s shifting of petroleum transactions from the petrodollar to the europetro. He had begun to do so, and had expressed intentions to do so completely. Not only Saddam, but Iran had also begun this process!

That decision appears to have been the last straw. Permission granted?

Freedoms with euros or dollars? There doesn’t appear to be any. Control is the issue.
Somehow I suspect the Islamics know the score.

Watson

It is a pointless argument to simply quote the Qu’ran as the verses you quote are taken out of context from the stories the retell.

For each verse you quote a cooresponding one could be found calling for the death of an enemy, or a tax. Are you familiar with the relative importance assigned to certain verses in the Qu’ran? do you know that the Hadith’s are the vehicle by which these values are assigned an importance?

It is fascinating stuff. At least to me.

The fact that Muslims do not value the life of an infidel the same as a Muslim is well documented in over 40 verses. Finally the prohibition against most sins against Islam is death. Death, not pennance, forgiveness, tidings. Death. You still think that is peaceful. I cannot share that view. Islam may have the ability to be a peaceful religion…but it is not now. By the way, niether was Christianity in the 8th. century.

As to the hadith. Do you want to argue that Muslims do not obey the hadith and it is a fundamentalist belief only?
The hadith details the life of the prophet and Muslims believe it is vital to read the two together to understand the Qu’ran.

I will have to disagree with your interpetation and to be honest the position I take is the same as nearly all who have studied this religion and is generally held as common knowledge.

Interesting perspective however and an enjoyable discussion regarding a movement that will have great influence on the course of future events in this country.

[quote]Limbic wrote:
The Arabs ask themselves “Could Israel survive without U.S. aid?”, and they answer no.[/quote]

And they would be wrong. Israel, without the shackels of U.S. ‘aid’, would be free to destroy the Palestinians, Syrians, Suadis, and any other agressor. The only reason they don’t is becuase the U.S. has them on such short leash.

I agree with others on here who say that, if not for the U.S.'s ‘control’ of Israel, Israel would have unilateraly handled the terrorist issue.

Why can’t the countries of the
Middle East take care of their own? Palestine is the red headed step-child of that area. None of the countries are willing to donate any land for relocation.

Why is it the problem of the West to step up and do what Palestine’s own neighbors refuse to do?

“Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”

~ George Santayana

Unfortunately some here have failed to learn history. And I am not just talking about Hitler writing Mein Kampf (translated: “My Struggle”) and Saddam writing “Our Struggle”.

But does anyone know how many extremist Muslims consider Adolph Hitler to be their hero? He was Saddam’s hero. That is a fact.

Anyone who studies history knows that the stock market will crash again, and again. Every time people freak out, but guess what, there is always a recovery very shortly after the crash. This includes the big one. A lot of people make money off of ignorance during these times.

History shows that Democracy works. Capitalism works. People want to argue these points for some reason, but again look at history.

When was the last war between two true Democratic countries?

Now look at how many current conflicts are caused by fundamentalist Muslims.

There is a distinction between the extreme and the average, but there is a systematic brainwashing going on with Muslims. Have you ever seen the political discussions at the Mosques right after their services? It is their religious leaders supporting the extremists, and if you are raised in this environment, it is hard to learn otherwise.

It annoys me to no end the ignorance of people saying, “But what about the children who were bombed? They will turn into terrorists.”

Does this mean do nothing? Stick our heads into the sand? (As I was accused of recently.) But this is just ignorance. Deciding not to do something because some time in the future there might be a person who might hold a grudge, and might want to get revenge, and might be able to. Sorry but that is too many might’s. We cannot have the Chicken Little mentality. Not ever.

Looking to history, how many little German children turned into Nazi’s because their homes were bombed? What happened in Japan? Are they still working for military domination? Damn Americans, look what we did to Japan. How terrible their lives are now.

About the question of Democracy again, compare East and West Germany before the wall came down. Which would you choose? Unfortunately some would choose wrong. (Probably because our education is very social here.)

Oh and it does not matter what the Qur’an says, it is what they think it says that matters. And people can make anything mean anything. “What this passage means is …(twist meaning, mention ‘secret meaning’ that it does not actually say, etc…)” And this is the problem.

People do not respond to facts, but their beliefs. I have said it before, but as a magician I take advantage of those beliefs and expectations. I only do it to entertain, but there are those who use the same techniques to hurt others, gain power, or money from others.

And then there are the ones who do in fact believe the crap they spout. Interestingly Zarqawi is not one of them. He proved that with a memo that was found where he said that after a democratic election, they would have no excuse to keep on attacking.

So you see he is looking for excuses to keep fighting.

He has also talked about attacking other Muslims, because they are the “wrong” kind of Muslim.

[quote]hedo wrote:
Watson

It is a pointless argument to simply quote the Qu’ran as the verses you quote are taken out of context from the stories the retell.
[/quote]
I quoted it to show you the verses that back up my arguement.

I’m not familiar with such verses even existing. Perhaps you’d like to point them out to me

The Koran does not need the Hadith to be explained. Work on the Hadith were written about 200 years after the Koran was written. There are multiple ways of interpreting the Koran, just as there are multiple ways to interpret the Bible. Hadith is one bigot’s attempt. Implying that the Hadith go hand in hand with the Koran or is the ONLY way of interpreting the Koran is either ignorant or disingenuous.

Again perhaps you’d like to shine a light on these verses for me, to my knowledge they are non-existant.

[quote]Finally the prohibition against most sins against Islam is death. Death, not pennance, forgiveness, tidings. Death. You still think that is peaceful. I cannot share that view. Islam may have the ability to be a peaceful religion…but it is not now. By the way, niether was Christianity in the 8th. century. As to the hadith.
[/quote] I mostly agree with this statement, I feel Islam is going through “Dark age” right now, similar to the West’s Dark ages. Regarding sentences of death, I believe the Koran only sentences death upon agressors in a time of war. I can’t say that I’ve seen a sentence of death for simply failing to follow the religion…although I also can’t be sure of that as it’s been some time since I’ve read ANY religious text.

Yes a lot of Muslims do follow Hadith pretty strictly, these tend to be the more extremist populations (Saudi Arabia, Taliban, Al Queada, Iran, the Wahabi movement,parts of Pakistan). More moderate Arab countries follow it more loosley (Egypt, Jordan, Indonesia). Some believe that the Koran strictly forbids reading other sources beside itself as a source of Religion, although they are currently a minority.

[quote]
I will have to disagree with your interpetation and to be honest the position I take is the same as nearly all who have studied this religion and is generally held as common knowledge.

Interesting perspective however and an enjoyable discussion regarding a movement that will have great influence on the course of future events in this country.[/quote]

Overall I don’t think your point of view is far removed from my own. The only differences I see is that I’m arguing that the Hadith interpretation is not the only way of interprating the religion and not a necessary text (although many Muslims have seem to think it is). While you seem to argue that the two books go hand in hand (or did I misunderstand?). I still think that if Islam let go of the Hadith method of interpretation and looked only to the Koran then the religion can come out of it’s Dark age and be integrated with the rest of the world. Of course the only way this could happen is if freedom is allowed to blossom in the middle east (A process that hopefully is starting tomorrow with the Iraq vote)

[quote]The Mage wrote:

History shows that Democracy works. Capitalism works. People want to argue these points for some reason, but again look at history.
[/quote]
I think this is an important statement, when our forefathers wrote that humans are granted “God Given rights” I think they were truely right. I don’t think Democracy if only for the west, and I don’t think it’s incompatible with any group of people, I think it’s human nature to want to be free.

Another excellent point. Once free, I hope the Iraqi’s can show that any population can rid itself of those who choose manipulation as whether in religion or in politics.

When I quoted the Koran it was simply to try and highlight the point you are making. That point being that DESPITE what the Koran says, it is the extremist who have put out the current set of propoganda.

[quote]
He has also talked about attacking other Muslims, because they are the “wrong” kind of Muslim.[/quote]
This part amazes me, the fact that anyone would support him after a statement like that…

Watson,

Here you go.

Qur?an 9:71 ?O Prophet, strive hard [fighting] against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be harsh with them. Their abode is Hell, an evil refuge indeed.?

Qur?an 8:59 ?The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them.?

Qur?an 4:168 ?Those who reject [Islamic] Faith, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any path except the way to Hell, to dwell therein forever. And this to Allah is easy.?

Qur?an 5:51 ?Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends.?

Qur?an 4:95 ?Not equal are those believers who sit at home and receive no injurious hurt, and those who strive hard, fighting Jihad in Allah?s Cause with their wealth and lives.

Allah has granted a rank higher to those who strive hard, fighting Jihad with their wealth and bodies to those who sit (at home). Unto each has Allah promised good, but He prefers Jihadists who strive hard and fight above those who sit home. He has distinguished his fighters with a huge reward.?

Watson if you haven’t seen these verses and the many others that are similar I have to doubt that you have read the Qu’ran. Thousands are similar. It is what it is. There are many good verses and many that are frightening.

My final commnet on the hadith is this. It was not written by one man it was written by many. A rigourous selection process was developed to insure that only true examples of the life of the prophet were included. Many many people contributed. It is an integral part of Islam for all Muslims. I won’t keep arguing this point with you until you can reference something that claims it was written by a single “bigot” to back up your claim.

Hedo,

I have seen these verses, taken in context it is obvious they are meant for times of war, although some of them are just “out there”. Regarding the “take not for your friends Jews and Christians”, there are also many verses that encourage tolerance towards these groups.

Regarding the “single bigot” comment, it was in reference to the initiator of these books, and the man who’s name is generally considered the originator of the effort to compile them.(I believe his name was El Bukhari?) Although it is true that many have contributed to it through the ages, including Sultans and Caliphs who included texts to try and opress their own people.

Regardless, I also don’t wish to carry this coversation on further. In the end I agree with your statement: “I’m not saying it can’t be changed and modernized. I’m just saying it is what it is at this point in time.”

[quote]Limbic wrote:

I believe Rushdie did and does live in Britain, probably London. [/quote]

I think this is correct. I wasn’t saying that the U.S. government was responsible to address a threat made against a U.S. citizen. I was merely pointing out that a sovereign government was essentially putting out hits on non-criminal private citizens of other countries because of their ideas – Rushdie is the most famous, but I don’t believe he is the only citizen of a western democracy on whom a fatwa has been declared (though I think Rushdie had an especially high price put on his head).

[quote] There are people in the U.S. intelligence community who understand Iran quite well. People in the military community who’ve known Iran is liable to commit some rash acts in the future, some provocation beyond financing suicide bombers in Israel. These are the one’s who are active now now that Iran is close to having nuclear weapons. So it is now small-time brinksmanship games, because they know for the Iranians to use a nuke on anybody would be truly suicidal.
The international community knows that Israel would retaliate in full, with no hesitation. [/quote]

I think this is essentially correct – and I think Iran was using its pronouncements on nukes as some sort of political game – perhaps because of growing sounds from the U.S. that the U.S. didn’t like Iranian funds and recruits flowing into Iraq.

I think that if Iran were very close to possessing a nuke, you’d see an Israeli reaction essentially similar to when they bombed Hussein’s facilities back in the 1980s.

[quote]
So that’s the present situation: the Iranians taunt the aggressors, the West tests the desperation of Iran.

And the question for Sisyphus is if Iraq can be democratized, why can’t Egypt? the second largest recipient of U.S. funding?[/quote]

I think Egypt can – though I don’t know nearly as much about Egypt. It has a repressive, Arabist government – different than Islamist – with some serious Islamist terrorist presence and sympathies among some of its citizens.

I don’t know that we need to address each problem at once in a pan-Arabic coup de grace, however. I think that we can perhaps achieve a democratic version of Kissenger’s “domino theory”, especially once Iraq moves more toward stability and the Palestinian issue is at least partially resolved.

[quote]Limbic wrote:
The Arabs ask themselves “Could Israel survive without U.S. aid?”, and they answer no. [/quote]

I think you’re correct that this is the perception of a lot of people over there – however, it’s not a correct one – unless you’re counting direct investment by U.S. persons and companies as part of “U.S. aid.”

Moreover, I think that as the perception spreads that the U.S. is helping set up democracies in Islamic countries (Iraq & Afghanistan), and putting resources into creating and maintaining stability in those countries. Hopefully the combination of those actions, and some strengthening of ties with Turkey and pressure on and support of Musharef in Pakistan can effect a change in perception concerning the U.S. role in the region.

[quote]
Their next question is “Why does not the West fund the relocation of the Palestinians?”. There’s part of the rage. [/quote]

I always wonder why they aren’t more concerned with why the Kuwaitis, Omanis, and Saudis aren’t interested in funding the relocation of the Palestinians? Successful propaganda is the answer, I think…

However, I believe a lot of progress is getting made on the Palestinian situation – mostly because Arafat died, and the current leaders in Israel are going along with U.S. pressure to move forward with the new leaders.

I think they are more opposed to Israel than to the U.S. – at least since the death of Khomeni. Almost all of the terrorism they sponsor is against Israel – mostly from Hammas and allied groups.

They will have problems with the U.S. now, however – I think they want to project themselves as the major regional power in the Gulf, which they see an opportunity to do because we’ve taken out the Iraqi balance for the short term, and the Saudis are not really a military power, despite their oil wealth.

They wanted a complete popular democracy in Iraq, which would have been Shiite dominated and probably very susceptible to influence by the Shiite Iranians. What they got was a more regionally balanced democratic government that can’t be completely dominated by the Shiites – I think a lot of their goings on were an attempt to protest or get a change in the proposed form of government to make it more susceptible to majority domination.

[quote]
Why was this not foreseen during the Shah’s reign? What precipitated such response? [/quote]

During the Shah’s reign we were playing a different hand, geopolitically. That was Cold War geopolitics – and while I’m certainly not saying that mistakes weren’t made, the strategy of supporting corrupt dictators as allies against the Communist Bloc was carried out in many other places as well.

As for the intelligence failure, I want to mention that, if I’m remembering my timeline correctly, the major failures occurred after the Church Committee and Congress’ other eviscerations of the CIA that came in the wake of Viet Nam. It’s hardly surprising there were intelligence failures given how the intelligence operatives were handcuffed in what they could do and whom they could talk to.

[quote]
Iran’s present-day Revolutionary Guards are said to be worse than the Shah’s SAVAK.
It appears to be about control.[/quote]

I’m confused – do you mean previous Revolutionay Guard under Saddam?

I’m also a little puzzled as to where you’re going on the point, because we took out Saddam, whereas we supported the Shah, so I would think that would engender different responses from the people under the thumb of those regimes.

I said: “Iran’s present-day Revolutionary Guards are said to be worse than the Shah’s SAVAK.
It appears to be about control.”

Barrister said: "I’m confused – do you mean previous Revolutionay Guard under Saddam?

I’m also a little puzzled as to where you’re going on the point, because we took out Saddam, whereas we supported the Shah, so I would think that would engender different responses from the people under the thumb of those regimes."

The Shah’s security apparatus, SAVAK, was created under CIA supervision, was barabaric and unpopular.
The Shah was overthrown, and the new regime installed the Revolutionary Guard as the new security apparatus. It also has become barabaric and unpopular, interested only in control of the people and business.
The Iranians learned the details of CIA interference after the revolution. Seizing of the embassy was said to yield damning documents. SAVAK atrocities were brought into the open.
Control.

As for Revolutionary Guards under Saddam: they are the Iranian ayatollah’s apparatus, not Saddam’s.

[quote]hspder wrote:

The fundamental difference between Nazi Germany and the Muslim Fundamentalists is that Nazi Germany was smack-dab in the middle of Europe, they had a highly organized and technologically advanced army, and they had intentions on invading the rest of the World.

On the other hand, the Fundamentalist Muslims have no organized armed forces, no real technology of their own and have no intention of invading countries other than Israel (of course, if you can find a quote of a fundamentalist muslim saying they want to invade the world I’ll be happy to retreat that statement). They attack other countries not to invade them, but to terrorize them. [/quote]

I disagree with you to an extent. I think the Islamists – at least as represented by al Queda – have made clear their intention of re-establishing the Islam “caliphate,” some mythical territory that covers all countries that were once conquered by Muslim swords.

The first step in that plan is to effectuate the fall of certain governments in that area that the al Queda people view as inimical to Islam – such as the House of Saud. The plan seems to be to attempt to create popular uprisings within those countries. They had one government – Afghanistan – but it was wrested from them. They had also made serious inroads in Pakistan, though not all the way to the top – and hopefully we are helping Musharef on that score.

Right now, they have no armies and cannot invade. However, if they find success in a country like Saudi Arabia, that could change in a matter of years.

So, to an extent, the rantings of the al Quedans, from Usama bin Laden on down, can be viewed much like the pre-regime writings of the Nazis – they are defining their agenda, and what they would do if they did have the power to exert their political will, which they could achieve should they take over in a strategically significant country.

BTW, I don’t think Iran is on the same wavelength as al Queda – mostly because of the Wahhibist/Sunni v. Shia separation. That wouldn’t stop both sides from attempting to use one another in the short term, but there does not appear to be any long-term confluence of interest w/r/t establishing political power.

[quote]
Now, do not get me wrong: I too believe that does not make them any less dangerous, ON THE CONTRARY

However, it does beg a different strategy from the one used with the Nazis, and makes the comparison - and hence, the lessons learned - much less direct. [/quote]

I think there does need to be a different strategy, mostly because we have decided to address the al Queda problem before it advances to the stage of the Nazi problem. Besides which, al Queda would never attempt to take on the U.S. in a conventional military encounter without serious allies – which, of course, is why there has always been such a focus on not letting such terrorists come to possess WMD. The geopolitical power structure is completely different now than it was in post WWI Europe.

[quote]I believe that both theories in the article (as to what caused muslim fundamentalists to rise against the West) to be true; it’s like a forest fire: there’s the wood (fuel) - a basic, fundamental clash in values - and then wind - the fact that they have Western troops at their door.

Now, I won’t pretend to think that just removing the wind is enough. But Bush’s strategy is, essentially, removing the fuel, which would be like wanting to cut down the whole forest. That’s simply insane - there will ALWAYS be a muslim fundamentalist group somewhere in the world. You cannot outlaw islamism like Germany outlawed nazism. [/quote]

Now, there are lots of Nazi organizations still around – the key is that they have been discredited and have no access to power structures. To battle an ideological movement, it’s necessary to discredit or disempower the ideology. I think that disempowering the Islamist rhetoric is a key aim of the democratization campaign in the middle east – and I think it’s a very important one.

[quote]
What I belive to be the right solution is to do exactly firemen do with uncontrolable forest fires: first of all, circumscribe it and prevent it from spreading. If circumscribed, fires will end up burning themselves to extinction.

In the same way, if left isolated, with no support from countries outside their already existing sphere of influence, muslim fundamentalists will eventually turn against each other and kill themselves - they don’t need our help.[/quote]

I think this is important – I also think this is part of what is going on in Iraq. We need to have a staunch ally in the region in order to project the kind of power needed for successful diplomacy in the Middle East. Iraq is a highly strategic geographic location, and combined with Afghanistan and Turkey (more diplomacy needed there), would give the U.S. a very strong position indeed. We would be in the position to provide quick help as needed for regimes facing an Islamist uprising, and intransigent regimes (think of Iran) would find themselves faced with a U.S. presence on multiple fronts.

[quote]
Maintaing that isolation is a challenge - it requires strong diplomacy, very intense marketing of the concept of Parliamentary Democracy and a strong leader that sets an example that anyone - Christian or not - will want to follow. [/quote]

True – and this is the hope for Iraq. We’ll see how it plays out.

[quote]
But please, do not try to teach a pig to sing. It won’t work and annoys the pig!

So, don’t try to convert Muslims to concepts they not only do not understand - they do not want to understand.

And before you remind me that this strategy didn’t work before, with countries like North Korea, for example, well, North Korea is not really isolated - China has always been helping them. Much as they are helping the muslim fundamentalists right now. [/quote]

No country with massive oil reserves is going to be effectively isolated by the U.S. It just won’t happen – it seemed to work with Iraq, but subsequent information makes it obvious that it did not work at all. There is too much incentive for other countries to cheat on the sanctions. Therefore, I don’t think it could work on either Saudi Arabia or Iran.

No, making China a capitalist country will not ensure their friendship – but it’s a step in the right direction.

OK – help me out – what was the name of Saddam’s crack military units? Who I believe were also used as secret police?

[ADDENDUM: I was thinking of the Republican Guard. Many apologies.]

Anyway though, the broader point was that we did help the Shah (as part of our Cold War anti-Soviet strategy), but we took out Hussein, so that the reaction of the Iraqis should be different than that of the Iranians.

Limbic:

More good stuff from The New Sisyphus on Iran:

http://newsisyphus.blogspot.com/2005/01/iran-burden-of-man-in-chair.html

Saturday, January 29, 2005

Iran: The Burden of the Man in the Chair
The Islamic Republic of Iran was born in revolution ( Iranian Revolution - Wikipedia ). Like most revolutions, its supporters saw something sublime and most beautiful in it. Hope was reborn, a new way of life, a new system was within grasp. The old–the hated old–was wiped out in one deeply satisfying spasm of violence, leaving the people with a new canvas on which to paint an entirely new society. And not just any society, but God’s own: a state constructed according to, and wholly dedicated to, the will of Allah.

For reasons both practical (our support for the government of the Shah)( Mohammad Reza Pahlavi - Wikipedia ) and religious (our status as the lead state of the infidel and hated West), the United States of America became The Enemy for the new Islamic Republic. In almost every sphere–political, cultural, educational, social–the new state defined itself negatively, by contrasting its virtues with the sins of the United States.

And then came the Hostage Crisis ( Essay About Iran | Bartleby ). We are often unpleasantly shocked to discover that many young people do not know about the crisis (except vaguely) and, worse, do not understand its profound significance. It was by and through the Hostage Crisis that the United States came to know that it has a ruthless enemy in Islamic Fascism. The deep wound that the Crisis unleashed on the hapless presidency of Jimmy Carter set the stage for America’s sharp turn to the Right in 1980. And, most ominously, it provided the first in a long string of political victories for the new Islamic Republic.

Feeling its strength, the Islamic Republic began to wage war against what it officially calls the “Great Satan” (the “Little Satan” being, of course, Israel) in a number of frustratingly cunning ways. From funding Hezbollah in Lebanon to suicide bombers in Saudi Arabia, the leaders of the Islamic Republic have had their eye on their main enemy from the start.

Prior to 9/11, the United States viewed these activities as (to coin a phrase) nuisances. However, once Islamic Fascism had shown itself ready, willing and able to carry out attacks of mass destruction in the United States itself, the prism through with the Islamic Republic was seen changed sharply.

What We Know About the Islamic Republic and Terrorism

Unlike in the debate leading up to the invasion of Iraq, there is no question that the Islamic Republic is a state sponsor of terrorism ( http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/pgtrpt/2003/31644.htm ). From the State Department’s most recent report on its terrorism-sponsoring activities we learn that:

[quote] Iran remained the most active state sponsor of terrorism in 2003. Its Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps and Ministry of Intelligence and Security were involved in the planning of and support for terrorist acts and continued to exhort a variety of groups that use terrorism to pursue their goals.

Iran’s record against al-Qaida remains mixed. After the fall of the Taliban regime in Afghanistan, some al-Qaida members fled to Iran where they have found virtual safehaven. Iranian officials have acknowledged that Tehran detained al-Qaida operatives during 2003, including senior members. Iran’s publicized presentation of a list to the United Nations of deportees, however, was accompanied by a refusal to publicly identify senior members in Iranian custody on the grounds of “security.” Iran has resisted calls to transfer custody of its al-Qaida detainees to their countries of origin or third countries for further interrogation and trial.

During 2003, Iran maintained a high-profile role in encouraging anti-Israeli activity, both rhetorically and operationally. Supreme Leader Khamenei praised Palestinian resistance operations, and President Khatami reiterated Iran’s support for the “wronged people of Palestine” and their struggles. Matching this rhetoric with action, Iran provided Lebanese Hizballah and Palestinian rejectionist groups – notably HAMAS, the Palestine Islamic Jihad, and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine–General Command – with funding, safehaven, training, and weapons. Iran hosted a conference in August 2003 on the Palestinian intifadah, at which an Iranian official suggested that the continued success of the Palestinian resistance depended on suicide operations.

Iran pursued a variety of policies in Iraq aimed at securing Tehran’s perceived interests there, some of which ran counter to those of the Coalition. Iran has indicated support for the Iraqi Governing Council and promised to help Iraqi reconstruction.

Shortly after the fall of Saddam Hussein, individuals with ties to the Revolutionary Guard may have attempted to infiltrate southern Iraq, and elements of the Iranian Government have helped members of Ansar al-Islam transit and find safehaven in Iran. In a Friday Prayers sermon in Tehran in May, Guardian Council member Ayatollah Ahmad Jannati publicly encouraged Iraqis to follow the Palestinian model and participate in suicide operations against Coalition forces. (Emphasis added). [/quote]

All of this is common knowledge. The Islamic Republic’s leaders can hardly be bothered to deny it. All experience forces the conclusion: since its inception the Islamic Republic has been a terrorist state and, worse, one that views the United States as its main adversary and target.

The Islamic Republic’s Nuclear Programme

The Islamic Republic’s flagrant violations of its treaty obligations and its secret program to acquire nuclear weapons became so blatant that by 2003 even the United Nations was taking notice ( | IAEA ). According to a March 2003 report by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace:

[quote] The heat is on for Iran to clarify its nuclear ambitions. On June 19, the Board of Governors of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) called on Tehran to stop plans to begin enriching uranium and to allow “all access deemed necessary” to clarify questions over Iran’s nuclear program. But the Board stopped short of declaring Iran in violation of its treaty obligations, nor did it refer the matter to the UN Security Council, as some U.S. officials had urged.

The IAEA’s statement was a compromise that fell short of U.S. Ambassador Kenneth Brill’s assertion that findings on Iran’s nuclear program “will point to only one conclusion: that Iran is aggressively pursuing a nuclear weapons program.”

The IAEA stated that Iran had not lived up to its reporting obligations under the terms of its Safeguard Agreement. Iran’s IAEA Safeguard Agreement requires the country to provide the agency with information “concerning nuclear material subject to safeguards under the Agreement and the features of facilities relevant to safeguarding such material.” Technically, Iran is still in compliance with its Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) obligations, but as the IAEA stated, “it is the number of failures of Iran to report the material facilities and activities in question” that is “a matter of concern.” Going back over a 10-year period Iran has followed a pattern of obfuscation that raises well-founded international suspicions about Iran’s nuclear program. [/quote]

This game of cat-and-mouse, so familiar to those who followed the bobs and weaves of Saddam Hussein in his final years–has continued to the present day. The US would demand action, the EU would wring its hands, Iran would point out that it is “technically” still in compliance with its NPT obligations, and the IAEA would attempt to please everyone by splitting the difference.

Matters came to a head in November of last year when a diplomatic mission led by Germany, France and the U.K. (obviously playing good cop to the U.S. bad cop, yet another benefit of the President’s strategy that is hardly credited) were able to negotiate a new agreement with the Islamic Republic under which:

[quote] Iran reaffirms that, in accordance with Article II of the NPT, it does not and will not seek to acquire nuclear weapons. It commits itself to full cooperation and transparency with the IAEA. Iran will continue to implement the Additional Protocol voluntarily pending ratification.

To build further confidence, Iran has decided, on a voluntary basis, to continue and extend its suspension to include all enrichment related and reprocessing activities, and specifically: the manufacture and import of gas centrifuges and their components; the assembly, installation, testing or operation of gas centrifuges; work to undertake any plutonium separation, or to construct or operate any plutonium separation installation; and all tests or production at any uranium conversion installation. The IAEA will be notified of this suspension and invited to verify and monitor it. The suspension will be implemented in time for the IAEA to confirm before the November Board that it has been put into effect. The suspension will be sustained while negotiations proceed on a mutually acceptable agreement on long-term arrangements [/quote]

Thus, in the end, the United States is left basically where it was with Saddam Hussein: it can either take steps unilaterally to secure its national security, or it can trust the same multi-lateral agency that was unable to do anything about Iran’s nuclear programme until 2003–and then only very reluctantly–to keep it safe.

And with the United States seemingly heavily over-committed to the Iraq War, with the rising domestic opposition to Bush’s policies, the rising international condemnation of US foreign policy, and the staggering costs of the War, it seems unlikely that the US is able, let alone likely, to strike out largely on it own initiative once again.

The Man in the Chair

The President of the United States is, we think, a lonely man in a way perhaps only the kings and emperors of old could understand. The position is often called that of the “most powerful man in the world,” but that is only because of the number of responsibilities on his shoulders. Due to the world-wide responsibilities of the position–everything from seeing that the seas remain open to commerce, that the world’s most productive economy continues to make the world richer, to providing regional leadership in places where America’s national interest is scant–people often forget he is America’s President, first and foremost.

We don’t have much sympathy for Senator John Kerry. Kerry is, by almost all accounts, a vain and dangerously wooly-headed man, a true 68’er whose first and most basic impulse regarding all the world’s ills is to find the American responsible for them.

We also, truth be told, have some serious concerns about President Bush. Despite his many virtues, we feel the President is a bit too romantic about the universality of American values and, due to his deep respect for religion, more than a bit blind about the danger Islamic Fascism poses to our way of life. We detected, like many others ( Opinion & Reviews - Wall Street Journal ), annoying strains of America-as-Messiah in his Second Inaugural Address ( Briefing Room | The White House ).

In short, to use the brilliant political labels of Walter Russell Mead’s extraordinary National Interest essay, “The Jacksonian Tradition and American Foreign Policy” ( http://www.nationalinterest.org/ME2/default.asp )(we are unaware of any other essay that can so succinctly sum up the different strains of thought that make up the American political landscape) we found one candidate too Jeffersonian and the other with too many Wilsonian impurities ruining what is otherwise a Jacksonian masterpiece.

In the end, however, all this is so much noise. Yes, the US is busy in Iraq, and, yes, we have engendered an alarmingly high level of anti-Americanism as a result. Yes, the Armed Forces are over-extended now. Yes, the President doesn’t have the political capital to lead the US into another war, and, yes, yes, yes, we can’t afford more trouble.

And, yet, at the end of the day, the final decision is going to come to the man in the chair, be he Republican or Democrat. We really believe that given the facts above the two parties, despite differing rhetoric, really wouldn’t deviate too much from each other in the final analysis.

Even slow Joe Biden, arguably the emptiest head in a Senate Democratic caucus that has more than its fair share, knows the facts. Today, in that liberal fantasy land that is the World Economic Forum, Senator Biden told–directly, to his face, in front of a large crowd–the Islamic Republic’s Foreign minister that both liberal and conservative Americans agreed “that it is not in our interest … for you to acquire nuclear capability for nuclear weapons and intermediate or long range missile technology.”

No President of the United States–no Democrat, no Republican–will stand quietly while a radical, terrorist-sponsoring nation that, as a matter of policy, holds rallies where it exhorts its citizens to suicide bombings while chanting “Death to America!” acquires nuclear capability.

The duty of the man in the chair, whoever he is, is clear. And may God and the American people help him carry it out.

Here’s another look at and analysis of the Zarqawi statements, from the Washington Post’s Op Ed section:

Zarqawi And the D-Word
Is Democracy Un-Islamic?

By Fawaz A. Gerges
Sunday, January 30, 2005; Page B01

If President Bush wanted to conjure up someone from central casting to act as a foil to his inauguration call for worldwide freedom, he couldn’t ask for a villain more fitting than the terrorist leader Abu Musab Zarqawi, who, on the eve of Iraqi elections, denounced democracy as an “evil principle.”

In a widely disseminated Internet audiotape, Zarqawi didn’t merely say that he opposed the mechanics or timing of the U.S.-run elections being held today in Iraq to choose a 275-member assembly and transitional government. And he didn’t say he thought Iraqis should wait and vote after U.S. occupation forces depart. No, Zarqawi said that he opposes any elections under any circumstances.

In doing so, he sets up a clash with more at stake than the outcome of today’s voting. In the audiotape, which surfaced last Sunday, Zarqawi, the most feared and wanted militant in Iraq, declared a “fierce war” against all those “apostates” who take part in the elections. He called candidates running in the elections “demi-idols” and the people who plan to vote for them “infidels.” And he railed against democracy because he said it supplants the rule of God with that of a popular majority. This wicked system, he said disapprovingly, is based on “freedom of religion and belief” and “freedom of speech” and on “separation of religion and politics.” Democracy, he added, is “heresy itself.”

The questions Zarqawi raises go way beyond the elections in Iraq to the whole issue of modernization of the Arab world. Is democracy un-Islamic? Is there a fundamental clash between the principles of representative government and the principles of Islam?

Increasingly, Muslims themselves are saying no. A small but influential group of Islamic intellectuals is saying that Muslims should see democracy as compatible with Islam. Islamic political parties and movements across North Africa and the Middle East are deciding with greater frequency to take part in elections whenever possible. In the Palestinian Authority balloting, the radical Islamic Resistance Movement, known as Hamas, has entered candidates in races for local offices. In Egypt, Islamic political activists are urging President Hosni Mubarak to retire and permit free elections. And in Iraq, Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, the revered Shiite cleric, issued an edict saying participation in the balloting today was a “religious duty.”

That explains, in part, the recent increase in violence in Iraq. Zarqawi and other foes of democracy cannot rely on public sentiment to keep people away from the polls. Instead they must turn to fear, instilled by suicide bombings and brutal attacks. Hardly a day has gone by without insurgents threatening to “wash the streets of Baghdad with the voters’ blood.” The intimidation campaign is relentless. “Oh people, be careful. Be careful not to be near the centers of blasphemy and vice, the polling centers. . . . Don’t blame us but blame yourselves” if you are harmed, a Web statement issued in the group’s name last week said.

Zarqawi’s diatribe against democracy echoed the views of Osama bin Laden who, in an audiotape broadcast in December, endorsed Zarqawi as his deputy in Iraq and called for a boycott of the Iraqi elections. “In the balance of Islam, this constitution is heresy, and therefore everyone who participates in this election will be considered infidels,” he said. Bin Laden lashed out at fellow Muslims who support the electoral process, admonishing listeners to “beware of henchmen [such as Sistani and other clerics] who speak in the name of Islamic parties and of groups who urge people to participate in this blatant apostasy.” For bin Laden, Zarqawi and other militants in Iraq, the goal is not just to drive Americans out of the war-torn country but also to impose their own reactionary theocratic model on Iraq. In their eyes, democracy is the antithesis of puritan Islam.

Although foreign militants such as Zarqawi number fewer than 1,000, according to Gen. George W. Casey Jr., the commander of U.S. forces in Iraq, they appear to have made informal but effective alliances with homegrown radical Sunni rebels with whom they share an intrinsic loathing of democracy. In December, three militant Iraqi groups, including the guerrilla group Ansar al-Sunna, issued a statement warning that people taking part in the “dirty farce” risked attack. “Democracy is a Greek word meaning the rule of the people, which means that the people do what they see fit,” they said. “This concept is considered apostasy and defies the belief in one God – Muslims’ doctrine.” Ansar al-Sunna had earlier posted a manifesto on its Web site saying that democracy amounted to making idols of human beings.

The bad news is that these insurgents are gaining momentum and could frighten Iraqis away from the polls today. A very low Sunni Arab turnout could call into question the legitimacy of the elections and the new government. And antidemocratic forces could make further inroads into the Sunni Arab community, especially if Iraqi Sunnis feel excluded and disenfranchised after the vote. A senior moderate Sunni official who is running for office was asked what would happen if the Shiites won a landslide victory. “We will all join the armed resistance,” he retorted. The longer turmoil continues, the more likely it is that Iraq could replace Afghanistan as the main recruiting ground for jihadi causes and become a magnet for international terrorism.

The good news is that the anti-democratic rhetoric by Zarqawi and bin Laden crystallizes the political choices facing Muslims worldwide. The jihadis’ antidemocratic stance is unpalatable to the overwhelming majority of Muslims. Mainstream clerics and Islamists have condemned the kidnapping and beheading of civilians and other abuses. After the U.S.-led assault on the insurgent stronghold in Fallujah in November, Zarqawi lashed out at senior Muslim scholars and clerics for their silence and tepid backing. “You have let us down in the darkest circumstances and handed us over to the enemy,” he reportedly said on an audiotape.

Although leading Sunni Iraqi clerics and scholars have supported resistance against the U.S. occupiers and an election boycott, they insist that they do not oppose democracy and say that they intend to get involved in politics after the vote. In defiance of the jihadis’ threats, the Muslim Scholars Association (which has links to insurgents, says it represents 3,000 mosques and is the most influential Sunni group to back an election boycott) called on Sunni Arabs to help write a constitution and join the political process. If the jihadis’ antidemocratic message does not resonate with conservative Muslim scholars, it won’t fly with most Iraqis.

Outside Iraq, the attitudes of mainstream Islamists, such as the powerful Muslim Brotherhood, toward political participation and representation have come a long way in the last three decades.

For reasons of strategy as well as belief, some Muslim intellectuals are rethinking the relationship between Islam and democracy and are Islamizing, not rejecting, democracy and modernity. Terminology matters. You cannot sell Western liberal democracy to Muslims worldwide because Muslims associate it with Western colonialism and power. But some Muslims are trying to give democracy an Islamic dress while embracing essentials such as elections, human rights and the rule of law.

Sheik Rachid Ghannouchi, leader of the Tunisian Renaissance Islamic party, has written that democracy can shield the Islamic community from autocrats, rather than serve as a sword for fighting secularists. Though a vehement critic of Israel (he once said that Israeli civilians were legitimate targets), he has become a voice of moderation in Islamic politics. He argues that rule of law, elections and citizens’ ultimate control over the executive are consistent with the Islamic concepts of shura (consultation), ba’ya (oath of allegiance) and ijma (consensus). And if elected Islamic regimes fail to live up to their promises, Ghannouchi insists that citizens have the right to oust their leaders. While he says that Islamic and secular democracies cannot be the same, he rejects the notion that “Islamic democracy” must mean perpetual rule by the Islamists.

The Islamic democratic movement is a work in progress. Unfortunately, pro-Western Arab and Muslim dictators, not Islamic activists, keep the gates of power locked and block any real democratic opening. In most of the Middle East, they are the jihadis’ unintentional allies in the fight against the empowerment of ordinary men and women.

Zarqawi, bin Laden and other jihadis miscalculate monstrously if they think their anti-democratic diatribes will resonate with ordinary Muslims. Indigenous calls for democratic reforms are being heard in almost every corner of the Muslim world, including Iran, Egypt, Algeria, Saudi Arabia, Syria and Pakistan. Muslim human rights groups and civil society leaders are challenging the autocratic status quo and risking arrest and persecution. The democratic genie is already out of the bottle.

Young Muslims, in particular, long to be in charge of their lives, and they are a huge constituency. They are fed up with autocrats and false prophets alike. Young Muslims do not want their human rights violated or to live in perpetual fear because of their dissenting views. They want their dignity back and long to be proud of their countries, which are falling further behind the rest of humanity.

By declaring an all-out war against the “evil principle” of democracy, Zarqawi and his followers are thus swimming against the current of Muslim public opinion and the spirit of the times. Few Muslims will buy into their nihilistic and apocalyptic nightmare.

But the Bush administration, by blindly insisting on holding the elections in Iraq today despite widespread violence and misgivings, may not advance the cause of freedom and democracy. Elections are not synonymous with democracy and, unless care is taken, they could play into the hands of antidemocratic forces. Tomorrow, on the morning after the election, the Bush administration and the new Iraqi government must do their utmost to reassure Sunni Arabs and bring them into the political process, particularly by involving them in the writing of a permanent constitution. Treating every Sunni as a potential terrorist deepens fear and a sense of repression that makes the community susceptible to extremists.

In his inaugural address, Bush declared it “the policy of the United States” to promote democracy and end tyranny in the Middle East and vowed to “persistently” challenge “every ruler and every nation” about how they treat their own people." Muslims, not just Americans, will be watching very closely to see how – or if – the president translates his rhetoric into reality.

Author’s e-mail: fgerges@slc.edu

Fawaz Gerges is a professor of Middle East studies and international affairs at Sarah Lawrence College and author of the forthcoming “The Jihadists: Unholy Warriors” (Harcourt).