Liberty in Socialism?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
521

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I’m not sure why these kids cannot see that socialism leads to despotism.[/quote]

since we kids dont see it, then maybe all-knowing-you could explain why it does?[/quote]

I do not know all, but I know that the different types of socialism lead to despotism.

And telling you how it happens is like me re-writing the Bible, why do it? You could just read Hayek’s Road to Serfdom.

P.S. I have never questioned your good will, however many people’s good will have been over run by zealous leaders. Socialism is good in theory, however once you put in the factor of some people’s evil intentions of having a whole country under their rule like what happened Cuba, Russia, Italy, &c.

522

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I’m not sure why these kids cannot see that socialism leads to despotism.[/quote]

since we kids dont see it, then maybe all-knowing-you could explain why it does?[/quote]

I do not know all, but I know that the different types of socialism lead to despotism.

And telling you how it happens is like me re-writing the Bible, why do it? You could just read Hayek’s Road to Serfdom. [/quote]

are you saying you cant explain your opinions?

523

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
JJ! great to have you back in the thread. And right off the bat, you bring the conversation back up to an adult level. You . . . you’re good you . . .
[/quote]

Glad to be back.

Are they? Perhaps we need a better understanding of what constitutes an injustice. Do we get upset if it rains on us? Generally not, because people aren’t involved. So here is the burning question: If a million people decide to go to the beach at the same time and thereby ruin it forever for everyone, has an injustice been committed? “Every snowflake in the avalanche claims ‘not guilty’”. I say this because effectively seeking revenge against unwanted statistical events is generally not going to work.

I think there a few built-in fallacies, of which the Agency Fallacy is but one. It is a good one too. Consider the case of being in the wild. If 10 wolves suddenly show up, you’re much better off assuming they are after you, so in a certain sense, people are made to fall into this trap. This is why we have to guard against it and also admit that sometimes it is no fallacy. (Like one of the other fallacies, post hoc ergo propter hoc.)

Agreed! Nicely put too. I side with (James) Monroe who stated that the US system was designed to harness ambition so that it would counter ambition. The aim is to allow for “grass roots” movements to flourish, then have a slow checks and balances system to keep it from being a free for all. Socialism stops all attempts at personal gain – even those that might benefit many others all in the name of social justice. The net effect was that there was nothing to stop the bureaucrats in the state from raping the entire country. Such systems have been mostly characterized by their sustained, state-sponsored criminal activity. Who is there to guard the guardians in such a system?

I would say no, but only because the goal is unattainable with anything short of completely regulating every single human interaction. It would mean having a small army of specialists following you around and watching your every movement and acting like judge and jury to stop it. This would doubtless warm the heart of many a Left-winger.

Don’t laugh, the Japanese used to do this with a group of super-secret spies called metsuke, whose job was to keep everyone on their toes. Anyone of rank had at least one hidden someplace in their household. One of the earliest and most comical interactions with the West was a negotiation (with Admiral Perry, if memory serves). The Admiral was making a solo trip to confer with the Japanese about something. From the American side, he was trying to show that the Americans were treating them as equals. The Japanese pretty much ignored whatever it was he was talking about and spent most of their time quite bewildered and trying to figure out who Perry’s metsuke was. Some thought he must be so good as to be invisible! They finally had to report that Perry was of such high rank, (he was trying to talk to the Shogun after all), that he must be spying on himself. Always liked that story.

And as always, I might just be full of shit…

– jj

524

This is an interesting read, and relevant to the topic at hand. Thought I would share it.

http://blackhawkpartners.com/Blog.aspx?id=42

525

[quote]jj-dude wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I’m not sure why these kids cannot see that socialism leads to despotism.[/quote]

since we kids dont see it, then maybe all-knowing-you could explain why it does?[/quote]

In theory it never does. The real problem with “Theory and Practice” is that, in theory, there is no difference between the two. :o)

As a simple empirical fact, countries that have tried to be completely Socialist/Communist have done very, very poorly and those who have lived in such systems have overwhelmingly rejected them. As Lech Walsea put it so well, “Communism was the experiment where the state turned the fish tank into fish soup. Reversing the process is proving somewhat harder.” Any more the only avowed purely Socialist countries are baroque dictatorships (North Korea, Cuba) or trying to be one (Venezuela).

That make sense?

– jj[/quote]

You are of course free to have any opinion you wish, but please base it on accurate information. First of all not all the countries that have tried to be “socialist” (error number 1: most of these countries have/had nothing in common with actual socialist principles; your argument is exactly like me using Hitler to argue capitalism). Second, the systems, even though not socialist, were not overwhelmingly rejected by the population. In fact, a majority of Russians and East Germans still prefer the old Soviety-style “socialism.” Third error: Cuba is not anything approaching a dictatorship. It’s actually much more democratic than the United State, with an excellent human rights record (far better than ours). Look at footage from Cuba: people walk around smiling, talking on cell phones, etc. Most Cubans support their government, a much greater proportion than the fraction of citizens in our country that supports our government. Protests against the government are not only allowed to occur, but are frequently opposed by spontaneous counter-demonstrations.

526

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]jj-dude wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I’m not sure why these kids cannot see that socialism leads to despotism.[/quote]

since we kids dont see it, then maybe all-knowing-you could explain why it does?[/quote]

In theory it never does. The real problem with “Theory and Practice” is that, in theory, there is no difference between the two. :o)

As a simple empirical fact, countries that have tried to be completely Socialist/Communist have done very, very poorly and those who have lived in such systems have overwhelmingly rejected them. As Lech Walsea put it so well, “Communism was the experiment where the state turned the fish tank into fish soup. Reversing the process is proving somewhat harder.” Any more the only avowed purely Socialist countries are baroque dictatorships (North Korea, Cuba) or trying to be one (Venezuela).

That make sense?

– jj[/quote]

You are of course free to have any opinion you wish, but please base it on accurate information. First of all not all the countries that have tried to be “socialist” (error number 1: most of these countries have/had nothing in common with actual socialist principles; your argument is exactly like me using Hitler to argue capitalism). Second, the systems, even though not socialist, were not overwhelmingly rejected by the population. In fact, a majority of Russians and East Germans still prefer the old Soviety-style “socialism.” Third error: Cuba is not anything approaching a dictatorship. It’s actually much more democratic than the United State, with an excellent human rights record (far better than ours). Look at footage from Cuba: people walk around smiling, talking on cell phones, etc. Most Cubans support their government, a much greater proportion than the fraction of citizens in our country that supports our government. Protests against the government are not only allowed to occur, but are frequently opposed by spontaneous counter-demonstrations.
[/quote]

LMAO - wow!!

527

Who’s trying to get away from anything? You, for one, attempting to use this post to get away from answering the questions that you’ve dodging for several pages. It’s not gonna work, my memory is better than that.

I have dumbass, you simply keep pretending that I haven’t because you have no asnwer for it, and acknowledging that fact would force you to either abandon your failed ideology, or confirm what everyone already sees, that you are an utter coward who refuses, even for a second, to question his beliefs. No, you believe you’re right about everything, and you always have been, even though not a shred of evidence supports you.

This is very easy, so pull your chair up close and pay attention:

exploitation of the masses requires a power structure. Otherwise, it couldn’t be done. The mob would simply carry you off. It is evident, if you think about it for even a second, that the state provides this power structure. Capitalism always and everywhere concentrates state power in the hands of a few with interests opposed to those of the rest of society.

Socialism reverses this role, overthrowing and destroying the capitalist state, and establishing a workers’ state. From then on, it is much more difficult to exploit people, first, because the class character of the state is drastically altered, and those who make the laws are now also the ones who are affected by these laws. Second, if a law is passed that the citizens do not like, they can recall their representative immediately and end his term, and possibly review the vote. Easy.

You have got to be kidding me. Even you cannot be this stupid. Of course those things will still be there–that’s the whole reason we need socialism, jackass. If men were all angels, it wouldn’t much matter form of economy or political system you chose to employ. The difference is, after socialism is established, these men no longer have access to the power structure that allows them to act on these impulses.

You idiot. I guess now you can finally answer my questions.

528

Cuba - ranked 123 in democracy in the world . . . Worldaudit.org

economic freedom ranking is 26.4t just ahead of North Korea and Zimbabwe . . . http://www.heritage.org/index/country/cuba

Per capita GDP ranked at 109 . . below such awesome economies like Grenada , St. Lucia, Costa Rica, Gabon, Latvia, New Caldonis . . . https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html

were more than 30% of the population lives below the poverty level . . .

529

Nope - you’re still missing the question . . . you cannot erase evil from mankind so you cannot prove that socialism will prevent the exploitation of the masses . . . power structures come and go, and they adapt to the circumstances. Power corrupts.

530

this cuba?

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/cuba

531

this cuba?

http://bigjournalism.com/hfontova/2010/02/25/sicko-about-that-free-and-fabulous-cuban-health-care-system/

532

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]jj-dude wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I’m not sure why these kids cannot see that socialism leads to despotism.[/quote]

since we kids dont see it, then maybe all-knowing-you could explain why it does?[/quote]

In theory it never does. The real problem with “Theory and Practice” is that, in theory, there is no difference between the two. :o)

As a simple empirical fact, countries that have tried to be completely Socialist/Communist have done very, very poorly and those who have lived in such systems have overwhelmingly rejected them. As Lech Walsea put it so well, “Communism was the experiment where the state turned the fish tank into fish soup. Reversing the process is proving somewhat harder.” Any more the only avowed purely Socialist countries are baroque dictatorships (North Korea, Cuba) or trying to be one (Venezuela).

That make sense?

– jj[/quote]

You are of course free to have any opinion you wish, but please base it on accurate information. First of all not all the countries that have tried to be “socialist” (error number 1: most of these countries have/had nothing in common with actual socialist principles; your argument is exactly like me using Hitler to argue capitalism). Second, the systems, even though not socialist, were not overwhelmingly rejected by the population. In fact, a majority of Russians and East Germans still prefer the old Soviety-style “socialism.” Third error: Cuba is not anything approaching a dictatorship. It’s actually much more democratic than the United State, with an excellent human rights record (far better than ours). Look at footage from Cuba: people walk around smiling, talking on cell phones, etc. Most Cubans support their government, a much greater proportion than the fraction of citizens in our country that supports our government. Protests against the government are not only allowed to occur, but are frequently opposed by spontaneous counter-demonstrations.
[/quote]

You, my young marxist ideologue, are now completely delusional. Please tell me you were drunk when you wrote this. The members of this forum might, just might allow you to use the “I was drunk” card on this one, but that’s about it. This is just…wow.

This post now firmly establishes you as a clown. Now off you go,…flop away in your big feet…honk! honk!

533

[quote]bigflamer wrote:This post now firmly establishes you as a clown. Now off you go,…flop away in your big feet…honk! honk!
[/quote]

You’d love that, wouldn’t you? You’re desperate to get me to leave the conversation so you can stop thinking. More accurately, this is simply another demonstration of your eagerness to swallow propaganda. The fact that you know nothing about Cuba is not evidence of my ignorance. In the future, you might want to bother to actually learn something about a subject before you make a fool of yourself.

http://www.cubatruth.info/index.html

http://killinghope.org/bblum6/aer75.html

“On April 6, 1960, Lester D. Mallory, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American Affairs, wrote in an internal memorandum: "The majority of Cubans support Castro … The only foreseeable means of alienating internal support is through disenchantment and disaffection based on economic dissatisfaction and hardship. … every possible means should be undertaken promptly to weaken the economic life of Cuba.” Mallory proposed “a line of action which … makes the greatest inroads in denying money and supplies to Cuba, to decrease monetary and real wages, to bring about hunger, desperation and overthrow of government.” 10 Later that year, the Eisenhower administration instituted the suffocating embargo."

534

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Nope - you’re still missing the question . . . you cannot erase evil from mankind so you cannot prove that socialism will prevent the exploitation of the masses . . . power structures come and go, and they adapt to the circumstances. Power corrupts.[/quote]

I see you have failed to address to question. Just as you are still unable to answer questions I asked several pages back.

535

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Nope - you’re still missing the question . . . you cannot erase evil from mankind so you cannot prove that socialism will prevent the exploitation of the masses . . . power structures come and go, and they adapt to the circumstances. Power corrupts.[/quote]

I see you have failed to address to question. Just as you are still unable to answer questions I asked several pages back.
[/quote]

Nope, sorry- you aren’t getting away from this one. The whole premise of the superiority of your socialism is that it will fix the problems “inherent in capitalism” by “defanging and rendering powerless the baser instincts of human nature” - so until you can prove how legislative measures and “democracy in economics” via the collective ownership of resources are going to alleviate and prevent the evil deeds of men- there is no going forward or backward on this conversation. This is the lynch-pin of your philosophy and it is what sinks your whole world-view.

Nothing else matters - this is the heart of the whole socialist concept - your criticisms of capitalism are all based on the way that evil men are able to use the system to cause injustices on other people. And your fix is to take away their 'control" of resources/production and that alone is going to solve all of the evil in the hearts of men. Once socialism is in charge - no more greed, cheating, slavery, robbery, bullying, intimidation, coercion, violence - it’s all going to magically disappear just like that . . .

LMAO - its amazing! it really is . . . I’m still getting a kick out it . . .

536

[quote]This is very easy, so pull your chair up close and pay attention:

exploitation of the masses requires a power structure. Otherwise, it couldn’t be done. The mob would simply carry you off. It is evident, if you think about it for even a second, that the state provides this power structure. Capitalism always and everywhere concentrates state power in the hands of a few with interests opposed to those of the rest of society.

Socialism reverses this role, overthrowing and destroying the capitalist state, and establishing a workers’ state. From then on, it is much more difficult to exploit people, first, because the class character of the state is drastically altered, and those who make the laws are now also the ones who are affected by these laws. Second, if a law is passed that the citizens do not like, they can recall their representative immediately and end his term, and possibly review the vote. Easy.[/quote]

Nice try jackass. It’s FINALLY your turn to answer a question. Or admit the obvious: that you are indeed a jackass.

537

[quote]Once socialism is in charge - no more greed, cheating, slavery, robbery, bullying, intimidation, coercion, violence - it’s all going to magically disappear just like that . . .

LMAO - its amazing! it really is . . . I’m still getting a kick out it . . .[/quote]

Actually, what’s really hilarious is your claim that, for peace and justice, all you need to do is give these men, whom you have acknowledged to be evil, complete control over society.

Don’t worry though! There’ll be a CONGRESS! Problem solved!

LMAO

538

man up Ryan - own your comments and provide that proof - quit hiding from your statement!!

539

You are obviously joking now. I even re-post it for you, and you still “miss” it. Perhaps a third time will be sufficient:

[quote]This is very easy, so pull your chair up close and pay attention:

exploitation of the masses requires a power structure. Otherwise, it couldn’t be done. The mob would simply carry you off. It is evident, if you think about it for even a second, that the state provides this power structure. Capitalism always and everywhere concentrates state power in the hands of a few with interests opposed to those of the rest of society.

Socialism reverses this role, overthrowing and destroying the capitalist state, and establishing a workers’ state. From then on, it is much more difficult to exploit people, first, because the class character of the state is drastically altered, and those who make the laws are now also the ones who are affected by these laws. Second, if a law is passed that the citizens do not like, they can recall their representative immediately and end his term, and possibly review the vote. Easy.[/quote]

540

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

You have got to be kidding me. Even you cannot be this stupid.

[/quote]

I know it’s hard to believe but it’s the sad truth.