Libertarian?

[quote]Sloth wrote:
vroom wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
Simple solution–Don’t work/buy from them.

Mike

Ahahahaha. And without any regulation, who is going to be keeping us informed about what the companies are actually doing?

Some of you guys really are in la-la land if you think that things spontaneously organize themselves or that they operate transparently. They don’t.

Even fair markets require police intervention (regulation) so that people don’t find ways to commit acts that make things very inefficient.

Consider all the unethical people, CEO’s and such, going to jail these days. Are you proposing that we don’t need any rules and regulations to govern their behavior?

There are certainly elements of the libertarian ideal that I am all for. I’ve even argued that direct (income) taxation is percentage slavery. However, we do require some centralized authority for various purposes, and those centralized services need to be financed in some way.

It used to be that you could just leave society if you didn’t want to live under it’s rules, but alas, the world is too small, and you have to choose to live under some societal ideals.

Hmm, I think you’ve got the wrong impression when libertarians talk about deregulation. Most aren’t anarchists. The Majority would be minarchists.

[/quote]

Agreed, anarchism is a fool’s game that leads to totalitarianism. It’d be a few years of chaos followed by the guy with the most / biggest guns taking the reins.

Mike

[quote]vroom wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
Simple solution–Don’t work/buy from them.

Mike

Ahahahaha. And without any regulation, who is going to be keeping us informed about what the companies are actually doing?

Some of you guys really are in la-la land if you think that things spontaneously organize themselves or that they operate transparently. They don’t.
[/quote]

I don’t think anyone expects an over night change really. This is more or less the feeling of alot of people who are fed up with the status quo.

I said it earlier that it is even realistic to think we could reverse the pattern we have developed. What are the chances of people voting for the guy who does this best job, and not the guy who represents the right hot button issue?

[quote]haney wrote:
What are the chances of people voting for the guy who does this best job, and not the guy who represents the right hot button issue?
[/quote]

About nil, unforunately. We are a TV nation, and that means selling. This means that the best guy for the job is the one that sells the best, not the one who can kick ass as a president.

I would love for a Libertarian guy to show up that sells his ass off. The essay in the OP didn’t sell for shit, IMO. If the liberts want to get somewhere, they need somebody who has a concise and concrete message and can make it appealing to all kinds of people, not just folks who are pissed off at the ludicrousness of our current system.

Is there anything POSITIVE in the libertarian message? So far, all I’ve seen is “this part of the way we do things right now sucks”. If they can stimulate hope rather than frustration, then there is a chance.

The libertarian message is positive. It’s about self-governance and freedom. It’s about how the American people are far superior than a government.

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
haney wrote:
What are the chances of people voting for the guy who does this best job, and not the guy who represents the right hot button issue?

About nil, unforunately. We are a TV nation, and that means selling. This means that the best guy for the job is the one that sells the best, not the one who can kick ass as a president.

I would love for a Libertarian guy to show up that sells his ass off. The essay in the OP didn’t sell for shit, IMO. If the liberts want to get somewhere, they need somebody who has a concise and concrete message and can make it appealing to all kinds of people, not just folks who are pissed off at the ludicrousness of our current system.

Is there anything POSITIVE in the libertarian message? So far, all I’ve seen is “this part of the way we do things right now sucks”. If they can stimulate hope rather than frustration, then there is a chance.[/quote]

I would give libertarians a chance since they will most likely get the cast offs of both parties. As more and more people get tired of the way things are the third party gains ground.

Most people I know would prefer to vote libertarian then Rep, or Dem. The reason they don’t is because they feel that who they want to vote for won’t win. So rather than “throw their vote away” they choose the lesser of two evils.

The last presidential election is proof of that. Most everyone I talked was voting defensivly. They just didn’t want the other guy to win.

The tide is changing in my opinion, and I think the power shift from a two party system will eventually gain ground in the next decade, unless both parties change.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
The libertarian message is positive. It’s about self-governance and freedom. It’s about how the American people are far superior than a government.[/quote]

Okay, I’m hearing you.

The message has to have some substance, though. Honestly, where are the Berts (short for libertarian) in regards to dealing with Iraq? Where do they stand in regards to foreign affairs in general? Withdrawing from everything isn’t an option. It just isn’t. And what can we expect from the Berts in regards to social services? Cut everybody off? It’s not gonna sell, man, it just won’t, I’m sorry.

Let’s hear something realistic. I would love for this to happen.

Yep. Basically let that side of the world police itself. Why does our treasure and blood have to? NK? Withdraw and tell Japan and SK it’s time to defend themselves. Why should it be on our dime? Pull the bases out of Europe also. They can beef up their own defense spending if they feel it’s warranted. Why are we so hell bent on playing world cop? What a waste of wealth.

Social Security? Yes, dump it. What a scam. I’m waiting for one honest politician to tell us just how much they’ll have to jack up taxes to continue to pay benefits. The worker to recipient is not sustainable. And it’s predicted to keep getting worse. The population is aging. Social Security is on it’s last leg.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/handbook/hb108/hb108-4.pdf

A pretty good idea of military posture under a Libertarian government.

Libertarianism will never happen to the extent libertarians would like. It requires a more idealistic society than the one we live in. You cannot force participation–especially in a libertarian society. This is basically anarchy packaged in a brochure for “self-governance”.

Where is the anarchy? You infringe on someone else’s rights, you are punished. Libertarianism does not equal zero laws.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Libertarianism will never happen to the extent libertarians would like.[/quote]

No, because a lot of people are weak and stupid and their vote counts as much as anyone elses.

[quote]
It requires a more idealistic society than the one we live in. [/quote]

On the contrary, it automatically leads to a much more realistic society.

And yet the free market is so much more efficient in stimulating participation than a planned economy.

No, it is minarchism.

Government is a necessary evil, we?d like as little as possible.

No more, no less.

[quote]haney wrote:
The tide is changing in my opinion, and I think the power shift from a two party system will eventually gain ground in the next decade, unless both parties change.
[/quote]

Agreed.

Like I said, wouldn’t it be great if we could find a bert who sells his ass off?

Then there’s a chance for the bert party to do something.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Libertarianism will never happen to the extent libertarians would like. It requires a more idealistic society than the one we live in. You cannot force participation–especially in a libertarian society. This is basically anarchy packaged in a brochure for “self-governance”.[/quote]

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Where is the anarchy? You infringe on someone else’s rights, you are punished. Libertarianism does not equal zero laws. [/quote]

You do understand the Liberatians advocate no fire departments.

Each neighborhood would have a designated fire marshal who would store the fire hose.

Yeah, that would work great.

[quote]Marmadogg wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Where is the anarchy? You infringe on someone else’s rights, you are punished. Libertarianism does not equal zero laws.

You do understand the Liberatians advocate no fire departments.

Each neighborhood would have a designated fire marshal who would store the fire hose.

Yeah, that would work great.[/quote]

Glad you took the time to understand a position before ridiculing it.

[quote]orion wrote:
Marmadogg wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Where is the anarchy? You infringe on someone else’s rights, you are punished. Libertarianism does not equal zero laws.

You do understand the Liberatians advocate no fire departments.

Each neighborhood would have a designated fire marshal who would store the fire hose.

Yeah, that would work great.

Glad you took the time to understand a position before ridiculing it.

[/quote]

Your opinion means nothing as you can not vote and your country is about to be over run by muslims.

Good luck with that.

[quote]Marmadogg wrote:
orion wrote:
Marmadogg wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Where is the anarchy? You infringe on someone else’s rights, you are punished. Libertarianism does not equal zero laws.

You do understand the Liberatians advocate no fire departments.

Each neighborhood would have a designated fire marshal who would store the fire hose.

Yeah, that would work great.

Glad you took the time to understand a position before ridiculing it.

Your opinion means nothing as you can not vote and your country is about to be over run by muslims.

Good luck with that.[/quote]

Which would only matter if you could decide what is true by “voting”.

Your opinion that we are overrun by Muslims is as uninformed and therefore as valid as your opinion on Libertarians.