Reagan who took communism head on and won? So glasnost had nothing to do with it? The unworkability of centralised production and inability of beaurocratic scope had nothing to do with it? Communism does not work, whether America fights it or not.
As for siding with people, hmmm. I look at the facts and came to a conclusion. The rest of the world happened to come to the same conclusion as me because its pretty damn obvious if don’t just observe but actually see. You don’t have to have a degree to find out about the UN Charter and how it bans international aggression. You dont need a degree to look on the Red Cross website to see the civilian death toll and summise that smart weapons aren’t so smart. you dont need a degree to find information regarding Husein’s long running feud with islamic fundamentalists (he was atheist after all). You dont need a degree to discover who supported Hussein when he was gassing Kurds (America, France, Britain). You dont need a degree to see the humanitarian crisi there was brought on by US/UK sanctions (hell, the Red Cross’ll point that one out for you).
Be careful about saying ‘we are on the right side of history’ implying everyone else is on the wrong side. It sounds a lot like racism. Democracy is not America’s alone, as Immanuel Wallerstein has pointed out is arose in its current guise from a unique set of trading links in Europe. Just because we think ‘we’ have a superior system it is not our place to enforce it on others. Why do you think we should be allowed to? Because we are better? Seriously, I want to know.
If Iraq was humanitarian how come the Sudan situation was ignored? It was far more pressing, millions were uprooted due to conflict, as opposed to Iraq where things wern’t great but they were ticking over. What about Chechnya? Why hasn’t the West stepped in there? Its a Russian pride/race war for gods sake! The reason is because our conflicts are profit motivated. Is that really so hard to believe?
Haahahahaha. Zeb, you are a raving lunatic, do you know that? You honestly think I’m trying to disguise my views? Hahahahahaha. Can you read at all? I’ve spent years carefully trying to explain my views and reasoning around here.
Scroll back a few posts. Those are my views, laid bare. Heck, call me stupid like Vegita does, because I don’t know how to classify myself, if you must. Agree or disagree, but don’t call me a liar and say my views are otherwise than I am trying to express them.
You continually ignore the content of my posts and invent strange motivations for them. What a confusing world you must live in.
Zeb, oh buddy, whats an unrealistic view of the world?
(shaking head) Now I’m a “raving lunatic?” Gee, vroom, seems like you are the one laughing maniacally.
I’m not “confused” one bit. I know I’m a conservative and proud to post it. You have yet to state that you are a liberal without the many qualifiers. You are either confused or not being upfront with the board. Which is it?
Sorry, that question was straight forward. You hate things like that…
Vroomster,
I agree that you are not an extremist, and I have several times read where you have claimed as such that you may be a slightly liberal minded individual or a libratarian. I never intended to label you as a cooky ultra left wing-bat. That being said however, many times you “claim” to be coming from the middle or at least not the left, yet almost all of these times, you are debating a conservative viewpoint, or at least debating the person that they are coming to that conclusion with a lack of understanding or a lack of broad vision. However, since you do not generally do this to liberal slanted posters/comments, you come across, quite logically as a liberal yourself. Do you see where one could draw that conclusion logically?
Ok for an analogy like I so often love to do, lets say you are an avid baseball fan, the Yanks and the Sox are in the series. You get into a debate about who is going to win, or who you like, and you say you hate the yanks… they are so overpaid, they are jerks, they use roids… etc. Someone claims you must be a bloody sox fan then, you claim, no, that you are a montreeal expos fan… but you like the sox in the series over the yankees. Seeing as the expos aren’t a force, you have to identify with some team who has somewhat of a chance to beat the team you dislike the most. So, while you may not bleed red and blue, you will certainly side with thier fans and throw your 2 cents in when arguing AGAINST the yanks fans.
Is this a somewhat accurate assesment of your political position? (as to your few conservative issues, maybe you liked A-rod before he was traded so you still have a little soft spot for him. 
[quote]JohnGullick wrote:
Reagan who took communism head on and won? So glasnost had nothing to do with it? The unworkability of centralised production and inability of beaurocratic scope had nothing to do with it? [/quote]
This is as far as I’m going to read here.
Why do you think there was glasnost? Why do you think the Soviet system collapsed?
Reagan.
Ronaldus Maximus.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Vroom, loves people to think that he posts as the “man of moderation.” What he is trying to do is disguise his liberal slant. If he is viewed as a “moderate” or “libertarian” he feels that his liberal views will be better accepted.
Haahahahaha. Zeb, you are a raving lunatic, do you know that? You honestly think I’m trying to disguise my views? Hahahahahaha. Can you read at all? I’ve spent years carefully trying to explain my views and reasoning around here.
Scroll back a few posts. Those are my views, laid bare. Heck, call me stupid like Vegita does, because I don’t know how to classify myself, if you must. Agree or disagree, but don’t call me a liar and say my views are otherwise than I am trying to express them.
You continually ignore the content of my posts and invent strange motivations for them. What a confusing world you must live in.[/quote]
Just for the record I have no problem with a liberal/libertarian, since I call myself a consertarian…
JohnGullick -
Are you on something?
First off - there is a ‘return key’ on your computer. When you are finished with a paragraph - hit it a couple of times. That will make reading your posts much much easier.
Second - Glastnost was a response to the writing on the wall - Authored by Reagan. I really like your 20/20 hindsight. Where were all these novel ideas about the abject failure of communism in the early 80’s? Great job of trying to use them in an argument 20 years after the fact, though.
Third - I’m not going to disagree with the numbers you throw out wrt the death toll in Iraq. But to assign the responsibility for all of those deaths on the coalition is laughable. Even you should be honest enough to admit that the insurgents kill at will, including innocents.
As for the UN charter - They had 16 UN resolutions against Iraq between 1991 and 2003. None of them were ever enforced until the U.S.-led coalition stood up and did it for them.
We won’t even talk about the corruuption in the UN running the gammit from pedophilia to the O.F.F. scandal. Besides, The U.N. has never been anything but a paper lion, and you know it. However, when it suits your anti-american agenda - you drape yourself in the U.N. flag.
What does racism have to do with being on the right side of history? I’m racisit because I’m right? You’re going to have to connect the dots on that one, because I have no freakin idea what you are talking about.
Veg, see, you are discussing this stuff, this is cool.
You are right, I am generally working on the right wing and often overlook some of the wild things by the left.
However, I will say that times that I do critique statements or viewpoints of the left, I don’t get credit for it.
I’m glad you understand there are degrees of liberalism, a point that I don’t think Zeb fully understands. The fact I wish to qualify my position to some level of accuracy somehow mystifies the guy.
Your analogy isn’t too bad, there are only two teams on the field here most of the time. The fact I’m always arguing with the “extremists” on the right doesn’t make me an extremist on the left.
I’m just one of the few people willing to continue butting heads on the issues – many just give up once they see the wagons get circled up a few times.
[quote]vroom wrote:
I’m just one of the few people willing to continue butting heads on the issues – many just give up once they see the wagons get circled up a few times.[/quote]
ohhhhhhhhhhhh brother…
vroom, didn’t you get mad when I suggested you might take yourself a tad too seriously?
Not at all Joe. Throw your inane comments at me all you want. I’m just telling you what I’ve been told…
vroom:
“You are right, I am generally working on the right wing and often overlook some of the wild things by the left.”
This is because you are coming from the left!
vroom, I fully understand that there are degrees of liberalism, just as there are degrees of conservatisim. After reading some of your positions I feel that you are an “extreme liberal.” Some of your other posts you seem more middle of the road liberal.
The point is, you are still a liberal! Now simply admit that with no qualifiers and we can move on 
[quote]rainjack wrote:
JohnGullick -
Are you on something?
Second - Glastnost was a response to the writing on the wall - Authored by Reagan. I really like your 20/20 hindsight. Where were all these novel ideas about the abject failure of communism in the early 80’s? Great job of trying to use them in an argument 20 years after the fact, though.
[/quote]
authored by Reagan,HA! You are living in the land of make believe! Any serious person could tell you Russia’s economy began to stagnate in 1975. And only you could credit Reagan with the fluke of Breshnev’s successors, Yuri Andropov and Konstantin Chernenko each dying within 15 months of gaining power, which caused the early ascension of Gorbachev, who had years before already concluded that the soviet system was in dire need of change. Talk about 20/20 hindsight! The witless Reagan barely knew what to do! 640 dollar toilet seats, and billions in debt to “defeat” the already defeated! Instead of listening to the CIA( The soviet union is collapsing!) or even Nixon (cut defense spending!)The hapless Reagan instead thought the Soviet Union was more powerful than us! Oh Rainjack! Blue jeans and the pope had more to do with glasnost than Reagan!
[quote]vroom wrote:
Not at all Joe. Throw your inane comments at me all you want. I’m just telling you what I’ve been told…[/quote]
oh come on. I’ve tried to be nice, I’ve tried agreeing with you, I’ve tried everything except moving to Canada and performing oral sex on you…lighten up and stop attacking me.
I’m not zeb, ya know?
[quote]100meters wrote:
The witless Reagan
[/quote]
be VERY careful.
[quote]100meters wrote:
rainjack wrote:
JohnGullick -
Are you on something?
Second - Glastnost was a response to the writing on the wall - Authored by Reagan. I really like your 20/20 hindsight. Where were all these novel ideas about the abject failure of communism in the early 80’s? Great job of trying to use them in an argument 20 years after the fact, though.
authored by Reagan,HA! You are living in the land of make believe! Any serious person could tell you Russia’s economy began to stagnate in 1975. And only you could credit Reagan with the fluke of Breshnev’s successors, Yuri Andropov and Konstantin Chernenko each dying within 15 months of gaining power, which caused the early ascension of Gorbachev, who had years before already concluded that the soviet system was in dire need of change. Talk about 20/20 hindsight! The witless Reagan barely knew what to do! 640 dollar toilet seats, and billions in debt to “defeat” the already defeated! Instead of listening to the CIA( The soviet union is collapsing!) or even Nixon (cut defense spending!)The hapless Reagan instead thought the Soviet Union was more powerful than us! Oh Rainjack! Blue jeans and the pope had more to do with glasnost than Reagan!
[/quote]
Witless Reagan!
Too funny. Your now in Al Shades territory.
Grab a history book and start reading. Better yet ask a Russian or an East German who defeated communism. Hint: It wasn’t Glasnost that did it…they all thanked Reagan.
No wonder we don’t take Liberals seriously anymore.
[quote]hedo wrote:
100meters wrote:
rainjack wrote:
JohnGullick -
Are you on something?
Second - Glastnost was a response to the writing on the wall - Authored by Reagan. I really like your 20/20 hindsight. Where were all these novel ideas about the abject failure of communism in the early 80’s? Great job of trying to use them in an argument 20 years after the fact, though.
authored by Reagan,HA! You are living in the land of make believe! Any serious person could tell you Russia’s economy began to stagnate in 1975. And only you could credit Reagan with the fluke of Breshnev’s successors, Yuri Andropov and Konstantin Chernenko each dying within 15 months of gaining power, which caused the early ascension of Gorbachev, who had years before already concluded that the soviet system was in dire need of change. Talk about 20/20 hindsight! The witless Reagan barely knew what to do! 640 dollar toilet seats, and billions in debt to “defeat” the already defeated! Instead of listening to the CIA( The soviet union is collapsing!) or even Nixon (cut defense spending!)The hapless Reagan instead thought the Soviet Union was more powerful than us! Oh Rainjack! Blue jeans and the pope had more to do with glasnost than Reagan!
Witless Reagan!
Too funny. Your now in Al Shades territory.
Grab a history book and start reading. Better yry ask a Russian or an East German who defeated communism. Hint: It wasn’t Glasnost.
No wonder we don’t take Liberals seriously anymore.
[/quote]
Hilarious, as if Liberals have anything to do with Reagan’s ineptness, you can quit with the hero worship already! And yes! Please! Read a history book, read about Gorbachev, read about Alexander Yakovlev, then carefully, oh so carefully check the dates on when their ideology on universal humanism, and changing the soviet union started to come about! Then please, dear Lord, try to remember that after Reagan signed the INF treaty that it wasn’t liberals but conservatives that said Ronnie had sold out America! Remember that? (hint 1987)After you do that feel free to come back and debate any factual matters. Keyword: Factual. How many times can you conservatives trot out this lame horse anyway? I know you’ve got little to hang your hat on, you conservatives, but honestly the foreign policy followed by every president since Truman won the cold war in addition to oh… The Beatles, Coke, etc…
was witless to harsh? I’d forgotten of wit like this:
“They haven’t been there. I have.” Reagan, '85, justifying his policies on Nicaragua. (Ronald Reagan had never visited Nicaragua.)
or
“Jefferson Davis is a hero of mine.” – Reagan, in a speech he gave to a crowd in Atlanta, GA
Hilarious stuff!
100meters/lumpy, you’re rapidly becoming NOT funny.
100meters,
“…you can quit with the hero worship already!”
You think Gorbachev, etc. would have their names is any history book had not an American nuclear deterrent bankrupt the Soviet Union’s system and keep their totalitarian advances at bay?
Had Reagan not been an unapologetic foil to the Soviet Empire - constantly keeping the world in equipoise because of fear of MAD and so forth - the Soviets could have ran the table throughout Europe, into the Middle East, and across Asia. Had not Reagan (and Thatcher) decided to break from the intelligentsia of the day - who was sure the Soviets were misunderstood and could peaceably co-exist - the Soviet Union would have had no serious obstacle to their conquest.
Yes, Russian leaders like Gorbachev deserve credit for urging Russia into a new era, but their work would have been impossible had it not been for Reagan’s crippling the Soviet model.
Quite a collection of revisionists these days on the T-Nation political forum. What, did postmodern cultural studies class get out early this semester?
[quote]100meters wrote:
hedo wrote:
100meters wrote:
rainjack wrote:
JohnGullick -
Are you on something?
Second - Glastnost was a response to the writing on the wall - Authored by Reagan. I really like your 20/20 hindsight. Where were all these novel ideas about the abject failure of communism in the early 80’s? Great job of trying to use them in an argument 20 years after the fact, though.
authored by Reagan,HA! You are living in the land of make believe! Any serious person could tell you Russia’s economy began to stagnate in 1975. And only you could credit Reagan with the fluke of Breshnev’s successors, Yuri Andropov and Konstantin Chernenko each dying within 15 months of gaining power, which caused the early ascension of Gorbachev, who had years before already concluded that the soviet system was in dire need of change. Talk about 20/20 hindsight! The witless Reagan barely knew what to do! 640 dollar toilet seats, and billions in debt to “defeat” the already defeated! Instead of listening to the CIA( The soviet union is collapsing!) or even Nixon (cut defense spending!)The hapless Reagan instead thought the Soviet Union was more powerful than us! Oh Rainjack! Blue jeans and the pope had more to do with glasnost than Reagan!
Witless Reagan!
Too funny. Your now in Al Shades territory.
Grab a history book and start reading. Better yry ask a Russian or an East German who defeated communism. Hint: It wasn’t Glasnost.
No wonder we don’t take Liberals seriously anymore.
Hilarious, as if Liberals have anything to do with Reagan’s ineptness, you can quit with the hero worship already! And yes! Please! Read a history book, read about Gorbachev, read about Alexander Yakovlev, then carefully, oh so carefully check the dates on when their ideology on universal humanism, and changing the soviet union started to come about! Then please, dear Lord, try to remember that after Reagan signed the INF treaty that it wasn’t liberals but conservatives that said Ronnie had sold out America! Remember that? (hint 1987)After you do that feel free to come back and debate any factual matters. Keyword: Factual. How many times can you conservatives trot out this lame horse anyway? I know you’ve got little to hang your hat on, you conservatives, but honestly the foreign policy followed by every president since Truman won the cold war in addition to oh… The Beatles, Coke, etc…
was witless to harsh? I’d forgotten of wit like this:
“They haven’t been there. I have.” Reagan, '85, justifying his policies on Nicaragua. (Ronald Reagan had never visited Nicaragua.)
or
“Jefferson Davis is a hero of mine.” – Reagan, in a speech he gave to a crowd in Atlanta, GA
Hilarious stuff!
[/quote]
100 meters
It is pointless to banter with someone like you. You have no grasp of world events. You view everything the same way…as a RADICAL leftie. And to be honest with you simply repeating back comments and pasting quotes is a lame excuse for whit.
Here’s a quote for you however:
“Mr. Gorbachev-tear down this wall”
-think that one may have inspired the East German’s son?
You have truly proven yourself as Lumpy’s hier apparent.
Why argue facts with you? You interpet just about everything said to you in the most bizarre way possible.
However, arguing with liberals such as yourself still remains good for a chuckle. But in all honestly do you expect to be taken seriously with the comments you make or are you simply trying to start arguments…ala trolling?
Let’s face it you have to be for something to be taken seriously in life…you seem to be anti-everything. Must be a burden for you.