Liberal Bias In Media Exposed..Again

[quote]hedo wrote:
100meters wrote:
This “study” is not an indicator of bias, just an indicator of the media kind of half ass doing their job, because as its already been stated NOTHING POSITIVE happened during this time, and Bush has been a horrible president(so far). During this time he’s dealing with the debacle in Iraq, torture memos, weakest recovery from a recession, horrendous job record(negative jobs then) stockmarket going nowhere, huge trade deficit, collapsing dollar, in general utter failure.

Bias would be something like pimping one party over the other constantly, delivering talking points, Or just flat out lying to viewers to shill for administration…Like FOX or even Air America.
The real problem is folks like Hedo, zeb, and joe weider that love being lied
to, and isolate themselves in the bubble of Fox or Newsmax.com where I think this story comes from, places that create the frame that you can only trust us, because everybody else is biased by the facts.

You guys are aware the Swifties have been totally debunked in the real world outside of FOX and newsmax.com right?

Huge difference son.

We make arguments that make sense and are not bashful about our political leanings.

You and the liberal media try and cloak yourself under the guise of being objective.

We not only see the left leaning in you, and the media, we get a chuckle out of the apparent embarrasment you have for having that belief. Foertuantely an ever expanding majority in this country is starting to see things the same way.

[/quote]

REALLY?!?!!?

Fox News’ slogan is still “Fair and Balanced,” is it not?

[quote]100meters wrote:
hedo wrote:
Vegita

I agree with your position. I think that Kerry was given almost a free pass by the liberla media.

Love him or hate him Bush doens’t have a gray are. He is black or white. That’s why the diplomats hate him.

Of course Kerry should have borne more scrutiny.

It’s interesting that newsmax.com’s headline didn’t say what the survey actually said, that fox news was the most biased of all networks, other networks striving for neutrality.

Like I said before there is no bias.(except fox according to this survey)

And if those on the right like this info from Columbia School of Journalism, you could check out there media review site www.cjrdaily.com. Excerpt below:

“the testimony of the Swift Boat Veterans wasn’t ignored by the press. Indeed, even when the group was an unknown staging its first press conference last May, both CBS and Fox News attended and gave the event coverage. After the group’s first attack ad – timed to coincide with publication of O’Neill’s book – came out in August, there was a rush of media coverage, and the attack ad, which had appeared in only three states, suddenly seemed ubiquitous on the cable news channels. The nature of the coverage, much of it marred by misguided attempts to be “fair” to all sides, meant that the Swifties could lie with impunity. It was nowhere near “hostile” to them, as we made clear in August.”

And on “Bush is black or white”. It would be more accurate to say:
“Bush is black and white” on account he talks out both sides of his mouth.

[/quote]

There is no way you can possibly say that Bush is a double talker. That is plain assinine.

[quote]Jay Sherman wrote:
Just want to say though that I have no problem with biased news as there is no such thing as being objective. Anyone who pretends to be objective is a lying son of a bitch.

In an actually working democracy you would have different viewpoints from across the spectrum. Instead we have FOX and hate radio with their rightwing bias, and then all the rest who pretend to be objective. And pretty much nothing for the actual leftwing except the internet.

This is not surprising as mainstream media is all about the money and no billionaires want to advocate having their property redistributed. [/quote]

Amen. All human derived statements are delivered from a point of view.

Assumptions:

A. I think we can all agree that the news business is a business and is therefore driven by concerns for profit above all else.

B. A more debatable point, but one with significant substantiation, is that people tend to want to watch or read news that supports their preexisting worldview.

I am perfectly willing to discuss any disagreement with these assumptions.

Arguments:

  1. A very liberal leaning in the media across the board would only cater to those with liberal worldviews. Therefore, a very large part of the market (approximately 51%?) would have been virtually untapped prior to the rise of FoxNews and Rush.
  2. You can make an argument that such is the case with a cursory examination of Fox’s ratings as compared to CNN’s. However, Nielsen demonstrates that, although CNN is not as heavily viewed as Fox, more people actually watch CNN on a daily basis than Fox. Fox’s viewers tend to watch for longer duration and that’s why the network’s ratings are so much higher than CNN’s.
  3. The network news programs are still much more heavily viewed than any show on cable news. (O’Reilly #1 at about 2.5 mil viewers per show, whereas each network receives 8-11 mil viewers each night).
  4. Most of America’s voters voted for George W. Bush in 2004. That tends to suggest that most of the market’s worldview slants in support of Bush’s (relatively conservative) as opposed to Kerry’s (relatively liberal). FoxNews therefore should dominate the news market if all of the other media sources have a decidedly liberal slant.
  5. Fox does not hold the preponderance of television news viewers. (Fox<network news + CNN, CNBC, MSNBC)
  6. Therefore, I logically conclude one of three scenarios. Either the media as a whole is actually not liberally biased, Fox News is actually so radically conservative that it creates the illusion of objectivity in less radical but still slightly liberal organizations, or the election was a fluke and America is actually populated by a bunch of liberal sympathizers.

[quote]toddjacobs13 wrote:
… or the election was a fluke and America is actually populated by a bunch of liberal sympathizers[/quote] who don’t vote, but watch TV.

Better? :slight_smile:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

So offering “free legal advice” to a group who opposes the person running against the guy you work for is a good thing? You see no problems with this and it all sounds legit to you? He’s a lawyer. If anyone knew what they were doing, it was him. I find it laughable that even after the election you can excuse that and try to dismiss it as non-consequential. It means there is no point to further this discussion. You are biased and will oppose anything that even hints at “shady” dealings within that campaign structure. I am also biased, but if someone proves me wrong, that is all there is to it. I guess it hurts to admit that everything was not roses during that campaign.
[/quote]

No, no, and no.

Firstly, there is no problem with a lawyer having multiple clients who don’t have opposed interests. Legal ethics is not breached here, and neither were the campaign rules – he stepped down because of bad PR. In fact, legal ethics would have prohibited him from putting himself in a situation for one client – the Swiftvets – that would have placed another client – the Bush campaign – at risk. And he was an expert – he would have known if he were doing so. You’ll note that not one single charge was filed – or even threatened once people had familiarized themselves with the applicable rules.

Secondly, this guy was a lawyer who specialized in campaign law, and that’s what his advice covered. It’s not as if he was in there doing due diligence on them and rummaging through all their info. They called him with some specific questions on whether the Swiftvets’ plans were legit, and he answered them.

Please go back and read the info I posted when this whole non-controversy was originally roiling.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Prof X, maybe I am a little dense, but why wouldn’t Bush’s support team coordinate with the Swift Boat dudes?
It was helping him get elected.

Kerry’s team coordinated with Moveon.org and similar organizations.

Neither side is supposed to work with these groups under the campaign finance laws, but of course they did.

Politics is dirty business. Mud slinging is nothing new.

There is no doubt that it is dirty business, but I do believe it against the law to support an outside group to that degree. BostonBarrier would be the one to know the ins and outs of that situation and just how deep that line of thought goes. [/quote]

It is against the campaign finance laws for unregulated organizations to coordinate with campaigns.

[quote]toddjacobs13 wrote:
Joe Weider wrote:
Professor X wrote:
You do realize that this would only have any significance at all if compared to the media coverage of past elections and the relation to how the president in office is portrayed during those elections, right?

Of course, you did.

No. You’re arguing in circles again.
The issue is liberal bias in the media today. Not ten years, not twenty years ago.
Given that Bush was 3 times as likely to be negatively reported on, liberal bias is the best conclusion. Occam’s Razor.
The job of the media is not to present postitive or negative reporting, merely to present facts. And we still don’t have John Kerry’s service record, but we have the CBS News forged Bush records, don’t we?
Prof, you’re too smart to always argue falsely.

Occam’s Razor states: ALL THINGS being equal, the simplest explanation tends to be the best.

Without exhaustive research into all of the evidence and factors surrounding an issue, you cannot make a comprehensive explanation (simple or not). It is clear that you have no idea how to apply Occam’s Razor.
[/quote]

Hey, Toddy! This is from Wilkpedia the encyclopedia web site. Simplest explanation is best. No where does it say exhaustive research. Athiests use it to justify their belief there is no god…and you can hardly do exhaustive research into both sides of that, now can you?
Listen: I have tried very hard not to insult people, in fact I’ve praised Professor X’s intelligence–because I believe he is a smart guy.
So why the personal attacks from you to me? Is that the only way you can debate?

Occam’s Razor (also Ockham’s Razor or any of several other spellings), is a principle attributed to the 14th century English logician and Franciscan friar, William of Ockham that forms the basis of methodological reductionism, also called the principle of parsimony.

In its simplest form, Occam’s Razor states that one should not make more assumptions than needed. When multiple explanations are available for a phenomenon, the simplest version is preferred. A charred tree on the ground could be caused by a landing alien ship or a lightning strike. According to Occam’s Razor, the lightning strike is the preferred explanation as it requires the fewest assumptions.

Variations

The principle is most often expressed as Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem, or “Entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity”, but this sentence was written by later authors and is not found in Ockham’s surviving writings. William wrote, in Latin, Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate, which translates literally into English as “Plurality should not be posited without necessity”.

This can be interpreted in two subtly different ways. One is a preference for the simplest theory that adequately accounts for the data. Another is a preference for the simplest subset of any given theory which accounts for the data. The difference is simply that its possible for two different theories to explain the data equally well, but have no relation to one another. They share none of the same elements. Some would argue that in this case Occam’s Razor does not suggest a preference. Rather Occam’s Razor only comes into practice when a sufficient theory has something added to it which does not improve its predictive power. Occam’s Razor neatly cuts these additional theoretical elements away.

The principle of Occam’s Razor has inspired numerous expressions including: “parsimony of postulates”, the “principle of simplicity”, the “KISS principle” (keep it simple, stupid), and in some medical schools “When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras”.

A re-statement of Occam’s Razor, in more formal terms, is provided by information theory in the form of minimum message length.

Another variant of this law is Thargola’s Sword from Nightfall, (originally a short story by Isaac Asimov and later expanded to a novel in conjunction with Robert Silverberg):

We must drive a sword through any hypothesis that is not strictly necessary.

Leonardo da Vinci (1452?1519) lived after Ockham’s time and has a variant of Occam’s razor. His variant short-circuits the need for sophistication by equating it to simplicity.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.

Occam’s Razor is now usually stated as follows:

Of two equivalent theories or explanations, all other things being equal, the simpler one is to be preferred.

As this is ambiguous, Isaac Newton’s version may be better:

We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances.

In the spirit of Occam’s Razor itself, the rule may be stated thus:

The simplest explanation is usually the best.

History

William of Ockham (1287?1347) is usually credited with formulating the razor that bears his name, which is typically phrased “entities are not to be multiplied beyond necessity.” In Latin, “entia non sunt multiplicanda preaeter necessitatem”. However this phrase does not appear in any of his extant writings. It is not until 1639 that this phrasing was coined by John Ponce of Cork. There are a variety of similar phrases such as “frustra fit per plura quod potest fieri per pauciora”, “non est ponenda pluritas sine necessitate”, and “si duae res sufficient ad ejus veritatem, superfluum est ponere aliam (tertiam) rem”. These translate as “in vain we do by many which can be done by means of fewer”, “pluralities ought not be supposed without necessity”, and “if two things are sufficient for the purpose of truth, it is superfluous to suppose another”, respectively. The origins of what has come to be known as Occam’s razor are traceable to the works of earlier philosophers such as John Duns Scotus (1265?1308) and even as early as Aristotle (384?322 BC) (Charlesworth, 1956). Even the name ‘Occam’s Razor’ was unknown to William. This phrase does not appear until the 19th century in the works of Sir William Hamilton (1805?1865). It is perhaps how often and effectively he used it that accounts for its association with Ockham. See Roger Ariew’s dissertation of 1976, Ockham’s Razor: A Historical and Philosophical Analysis of Ockham’s Principle of Parsimony and W. M. Thornburn’s The Myth of Occam’s Razor.

[edit]

Historical significance

Occam’s Razor was essentially a conviction that natural science (as seen in the works of Aristotle) and theology must split and go in different directions. The 12th and 13th century saw great efforts to unify theology and reason which cumulated with the works of Thomas Aquinas. Ockham rejected Thomas’s “unnecessary” entities such as the active intellect, intelligible species and final causes that Thomas had created to construct a system of thought linking the operations of the natural world with the creativity of God. Ockham said such a construct was impossible and that the study of the natural world, and the study of theology must split. The former is knowable; the latter will forever be a mystery.

[edit]

Justifications

Occam’s Razor is known by several different names including the Principle of Parsimony, The Principle of Simplicity, and The Principle of Economy. The reason for these alternate names can be explained by the association of simplicity and parsimony with Occam’s Razor. Prior to the 20th century it was believed that the metaphysical justification for Occam’s Razor was simplicity. It was thought that nature was in some sense simple and that our theories about nature should reflect that simplicity. With such a metaphysical justification came the implication that Occam’s Razor is a metaphysical principle. From the beginning of the 20th century, these views fell out of favor as scientists presented an increasingly complex world view. In response, philosophers turned away from metaphysical justifications for Occam’s Razor to epistemological ones including inductive, pragmatic, likelihood and probabilistic justifications, which is where things stand today. Thus, Occam’s Razor is currently conceived of as a methodological principle. Elliott Sober has expressed dissatisfaction with epistemological justifications for Occam’s Razor. He thinks that there must be a metaphysical presupposition for Occam’s Razor, but offers no possibilities (Sober, 1990). For a summary of epistemological justifications for Occam’s Razor see Roger Ariew’s dissertation of 1976 “Ockham’s Razor: A Historical and Philosophical Analysis of Ockham’s Principle of Parsimony”.

[quote]toddjacobs13 wrote:
Joe Weider wrote:
So, ProfX, let me get this clear:
in your world, liberal = good, conservative = bad. As such, there’s no way a conservative person can possibly amount to anything or even defend him/herself, because you’ve got them screwed both directions.
Nice.

Joe,

This statement has no real basis other than you believe that Professor X is a liberal.

You really shouldn’t lock into a battle of wits with the good Professor. You are sadly unarmed.[/quote]
That’s your opinion, and thank you for it.
In the future please leave me out of your thoughts, if the only way you can debate is by insult.

[quote]toddjacobs13 wrote:
Joe Weider wrote:
futuredave wrote:

futuredave wrote:
why are these people mostly liberal?

Joe Weider wrote:
That’s simple–most people who go into journalism actually want to change the world.
Next?

So, people who “want to change the world” are liberals.

I happily agree.

The question then is: Should the world be changed or not? Or are we happy with the level of poverty, disease, corporate crime, deception and greed?

Now where did you see me say that?
I guess I should have added more, but I figured everyone here was smart.
Sorry, my mistake.
These kids are indoctrinated by screamin’ lib nutcase high school teachers, then by panty sniffin college professors, and so they become farther left than the most ardent communist. It’s very cute, really. Then they go into journalism, determined to make everyone agree with them.
Like the people at CBS news.

There is less poverty in America than anywhere in the world. Yet we’ve been fighting the “War on Poverty” for 50 years. And every 2 years the libs march before us and scream and cry about how it’s worse than ever.
And they were in charge for 40 years…amazing!
Corporate crime? NY Times economist Paul Krugman has been nothing but critical of GWB, and yet he was an Enron advisor.
Odd…huh?

If your reasoning was right, then most high school and an even higher percentage of college graduates would be liberal, correct? So who is pushing the Republican movement? Dropouts?

Does the US actually have the lowest poverty rate in the world? Check your facts please…

[/quote]

Actually, no, because most people that go to college then wind up working in real jobs where they see for themselves how screwy lib ideas are.

As for poverty, it depends on your definition. The average poor person in this country has a car and at least one color tv, and probably cable or satellite and even a computer.
The average poor person in India has a t-shirt.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
It is against the campaign finance laws for unregulated organizations to coordinate with campaigns.

[/quote]

Thanks for clearing that up. However, by what you stated before, if this was not negative in any way. he would have received no negative PR and he would have felt no need to step down. I find it odd that on one hand you note this, but on the other hand excuse it.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
I would be content to see unbiased reporting of facts, but if they’re going to present one side of the argument the other side should be presented as well (a la Fox giving both sides the chance to argue with one another).

vroom wrote:
Boston,

For someone so smart, you are often quite silly at times. Of course I’m talking about the fact that the sitting administration is going to get a lot of critique’s, a lot of negative coverage. To me, that is natural no matter who it is in power.

As for the above, it shows a problem. Fox is under the gun, and various studies show, that it is in fact one of the more unbalanced shows out there. It claims to be balanced. That should be a problem. [/quote]

No one said Fox was going to be perfect.I said I preferred their model of giving both sides of an argument to a model claiming to be unbiased but really furnishing only one side of an argument.

Maybe I should go into some specific critiques of the study? I linked it above so people would have a chance to look at the methodology – I think the “journalist gives opinion” stat is the most unfair to the Fox model, given that there is no measure to whether the other side was allowed to give opinion in the same story. If that were controlled, I would be interested to see what were the number of stories that were not so balanced.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Now, I’m not trying to get into an argument about Fox, per se, because that wouldn’t even begin to be interesting. However, I will point out that it isn’t enough to have both sides of an issue “presented”. [/quote]

Again, it’s not about whether it’s perfect – it’s about whether it’s better. All your critiques about bias and perspective would seemingly apply moreso when only one filter – that of the journalist or producer – is applied. ANd given the studies concerning party affiliation of journalists and people in the media, you’ll have to forgive me if I think having opposite filters is superior to trusting them to provide an “unbiased” report.

[quote]vroom wrote:
The problem with the measurement is that if you (or I) am biased, then it is very difficult for us to accurately assess whether the story is presented fairly. What is the story composed of? Is it simply facts? If it is facts, how do you balance the weight of the spin points put out by both parties, if you in fact include either?

Are the people representing both sides equally credible (ignoring the fact most can’t even hear what the side that disagrees with them is saying)? Are both sides allowed to speak appropriately? Is a difficult issue examined in enoug depth for the points of both sides to be made? [/quote]

All true, but as I said, all seemingly even more applicable if only one side is presented – and not even sourced well (if you agree with the study).

Also, quick sub point on the sourcing – that would definitely go to the “we report, you decide” claim Fox uses in its advertising – they provide sources so you can decide on how credible they are for yourself, whereas the other networks often prefer to just demand you trust them.

[quote]vroom wrote:
There are a lot of criteria and a lot of studies. I don’t think it means very much. Liberal media or republican media – people believe what they want and twist what they hear anyway. I’m not offering solutions… just trying to make a single non-party based point.

Look how much trouble that causes…
[/quote]

I agree that each study is going to have its problems, but throwing them out wholesale and throwing up your hands seems to me equally unproductive. There are interesting data in these studies, even if one needs to account for their subjectivity.

BTW, weren’t you just complaining above about focusing on a small part of a post in a reply? Ah, never mind – 'tis no matter…

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Thanks for clearing that up. However, by what you stated before, if this was not negative in any way. he would have received no negative PR and he would have felt no need to step down. I find it odd that on one hand you note this, but on the other hand excuse it.[/quote]

I’m not sure, but I think you may be making the point about liberal bias in the news?
The only reason it got negative publicity was because the liberal media didn’t bother to check the laws, they merely reacted in an attempt to smear GWB.
So he stepped aside so as to not give them any more opportunity to smear and slander.

[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
I’m not sure, but I think you may be making the point about liberal bias in the news?
The only reason it got negative publicity was because the liberal media didn’t bother to check the laws, they merely reacted in an attempt to smear GWB.
So he stepped aside so as to not give them any more opportunity to smear and slander.
[/quote]

You can’t be this blind to politics. So the fact that it just happened to be the SwiftBoat vets, who were potentially the most destructive force against Kerry’s campaign, is simply a coincidence? The fact that the same guy was also working with the Bush campaign? I am not one for all out conspiracy theories, but some of this is just plain common sense.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Thanks for clearing that up. However, by what you stated before, if this was not negative in any way. he would have received no negative PR and he would have felt no need to step down. I find it odd that on one hand you note this, but on the other hand excuse it.[/quote]

He stepped down because in a relatively close race, in which opinion polls were fluctuating daily, he did not want to cause harm to the Bush campaign. Whether he was asked by the Bush campaign to resign or whether he did it himself isn’t known, though I believe he claimed he made his own decision (not really an answer to whether he was asked).

The negative PR was from journalists. First they stormed out with the “is there coordination – look, a lawyer who has two different clients!” story, and then framing the story in a non-specific negative light – “Questions surround ties of Bush campaign to Swiftvets!”. Those journalists were either lazy, ignorant, both, or willfully misrepresenting the situation. In any case, bad stuff from the journalists.

Once the story had advanced and he had stepped down, they switched focus to “an appearance of impropriety”.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
You can’t be this blind to politics. So the fact that it just happened to be the SwiftBoat vets, who were potentially the most destructive force against Kerry’s campaign, is simply a coincidence? The fact that the same guy was also working with the Bush campaign? I am not one for all out conspiracy theories, but some of this is just plain common sense.[/quote]

No, I’m not, thanks for asking.
Seems like perhaps you’re the one that’s just skimmed the surface, swallowing whatever headline has come your way.

Pro X,

Don’t try and dance out of it - you don’t have the feet for it.

You made a simple, absolute statement - that anyone would be hard pressed to find someone who voted for Bush with any criticism of Bush. It was not contextual to anything you had said before. And it was erroneous.

I refuted it.

And your misuse of ‘straw man’ is making my hair hurt - do you even know what a ‘straw man’ fallacy is?

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Pro X,

Don’t try and dance out of it - you don’t have the feet for it.

You made a simple, absolute statement - that anyone would be hard pressed to find someone who voted for Bush with any criticism of Bush. It was not contextual to anything you had said before. And it was erroneous.

I refuted it.

And your misuse of ‘straw man’ is making my hair hurt - do you even know what a ‘straw man’ fallacy is?

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html[/quote]

Gawd, your arguments have now resorted to tearing apart my word usage. I do believe I clarified anything that might have been cloudy in any statements of mine. You are just mad because I do eventually clean up any rough edges in my line of thinking as far as how it is written. Instead of focusing on the issue I posed, you complain about the use of “any criticism”. How about you follow where the topic goes instead of going back 2 or 3 pages just to make up a flaccid argument.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Gawd, your arguments have now resorted to tearing apart my word usage. I do believe I clarified anything that might have been cloudy in any statements of mine. You are just mad because I do eventually clean up any rough edges in my line of thinking as far as how it is written. Instead of focusing on the issue I posed, you complain about the use of “any criticism”. How about you follow where the topic goes instead of going back 2 or 3 pages just to make up a flaccid argument.
[/quote]

You have a ‘line’ of thinking? Hahahaha!! You have a shot-gun logic at best. And if something don’t stick, you reload and fire again. Your current ‘line’ has been refuted by no less than 4 people.

It’s time to re-load and fire again, Prox.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
You have a ‘line’ of thinking? Hahahaha!! You have a shot-gun logic at best. And if something don’t stick, you reload and fire again. Your current ‘line’ has been refuted by no less than 4 people.

It’s time to re-load and fire again, Prox.
[/quote]

what was this thread about again?