Legalizing Weed

[quote]Apoklyps wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
I don’t know exactly how harmful marijuana is to personal health.[/quote]

Do you know marijuana smokers ? I do . I know quite a lot. They are all productive members of society . Many are respected a couple are part of the Obama’s 1%. All but 1 are having health issues.all but one are what I would say are physically superior types. All of them are more empathetic types. All very social and well liked with the exception of one . None with one exception has had trouble with the law, well counting me 2 :slight_smile:

I subscribe to the theory that marijuana is not for every one . I believe there are connections made in the brain that can be very beneficial to some . I think as medicine it has more applications than aspirin . I also believe that it is a crime and morally unconscionable to deprive something that some one may benefit from in any way .

IMO we have people that have moral authority making public policy that are not honest, just catering to an aged voting block of the uninformed .Most policy makers have and many still smoke do pot[/quote]

I support legalization, and agree with many of the points you make, but a lot of the logic you use is faulty. In the past, I have smoked a LOT of sweet canna, as have most people in my area/culture. But anecdotal evidence is not the same as empirical evidence. Weed is not for everyone, but the general scientific consensus is that moderated consumption of cannabis and many tryptamine and phenethylamine based psychedelics has milder health and life consequences than most other recreational drugs, legal or otherwise, and all hard drugs (of which alcohol and tobacco are included, due to a relatively high risk of abuse and serious adverse health risks in the event of abuse).

You cannot make blanket statements about its efficacy as a medicine without explaining your position. Here’s why pot has potential for medical use:

Cannabis has painkilling properties approximately equivalent to 120mg codeine according to NIDA (i.e. a conservative estimate), yet has far less addictive potential, not to mention adverse side effects (unless you consider being high adverse :P) than opioid-based painkillers. Think about how many lives OxyContin has ruined. If pot works for someone, wouldn’t it be a better first-line therapy than taking the risk of a life-destroying opioid drug (even if opioids, used therapeutically, have a lowered risk of addiction)?

Barbiturate and benzodiazepine based sleeping pills also carry serious risk of addiction and serious adverse side effects, even when used in a therapeutic manner. Even SSRI sleeping medications, like trazodone for example, are risky. Although studies indicate short-term use to have an excellent safety profile, SSRIs as a drug class have been around for such a short time that there isn’t enough long-term data available yet to draw firm conclusions on the effects of long-term use. This is in direct contrast to cannabis’ long history of use and well-celebrated safety profile prior to its ban.

Cannabis also has demonstrated effects as an antiemetic and appetite-stimulant, and there are several drugs on the market today based on cannabinoids like dronabinol (synthetic THC) and nabilone (synthetic cannabinoid). The difference? These drugs cost a small fortune. Pot is cheap. I’m not against prudent use of pharmaceuticals, but it’s a cutthroat business just like any other. If they can make more money by keeping it illegal they will.

Fun fact: tryptamine based psychedelics like psilocin and ALD-52 (that’s shrooms and acid to you!) are at least equally effective as triptan drugs (like Imitrex or Zomig) at suppressing migraine headaches, and actually have a better safety profile too! Triptans are actually the result of pharmaceutical research into trying to make a tryptamine-based drug that doesn’t cause you to trip out, since they have been known to have anti-migraine effects for a long time.[/quote]

OK :slight_smile:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
You don’t get to jump in on page 13 and hit the reset button. I’ve been debating this topic for 13 pages, long before you jumped in, and now you want it all repeated just for little old you. That’s not happening. So I will tell you one more time. You can go back to page 1 or 2 where I began and you can try to refute my basic arguments. Short of that you can continue to prove why you’re the most ignored man on T Nation and continue to play the part of the village idiot, or you can scroll back and do some work.

I couldn’t care less either way.[/quote]

HAHA!

I tore the shit out of your consumption argument, and even reposted my links; you still won’t respond to them. This is you trying to slink out of the thread since you have no argument. You’re trying to paint me as not having an argument, while consistently avaoiding the argument. Know what that is? That’s you being a pussy.

Go on now, slink away…LOL[/quote]

Got it? [/quote]

@flamer How Dare you disagree with Zebadiah Asshatt

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

It’s fiber is superior to cellulose from trees for paper . It is also superior to cotton , dose not need any pesticides . Two huge industries that do not want to see Hemp legalized[/quote]

A lot fo today’s paper is made from recycled cloth anyway. The dollar bill in your pocket used to be a shit covered bed sheet in a VA hospital.

But on a serious note, I feel like your post here has merit, in that other industries would want to prevent hemp from being legal, but isn’t the stuff you grow for hemp and the stuff you grow to get high basically two different things?[/quote]

IMO they use cloth in money for it’s durability

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
You don’t get to jump in on page 13 and hit the reset button. I’ve been debating this topic for 13 pages, long before you jumped in, and now you want it all repeated just for little old you. That’s not happening. So I will tell you one more time. You can go back to page 1 or 2 where I began and you can try to refute my basic arguments. Short of that you can continue to prove why you’re the most ignored man on T Nation and continue to play the part of the village idiot, or you can scroll back and do some work.

I couldn’t care less either way.[/quote]

HAHA!

I tore the shit out of your consumption argument, and even reposted my links; you still won’t respond to them. This is you trying to slink out of the thread since you have no argument. You’re trying to paint me as not having an argument, while consistently avaoiding the argument. Know what that is? That’s you being a pussy.

Go on now, slink away…LOL[/quote]

Got it? [/quote]

@flamer How Dare you disagree with Zebadiah Asshatt
[/quote]

And this from the absolute dumbest guy on T Nation bar none!

Duuuuh…did you figure out what capital gains are yet Pittski?

LOL…

[quote]ZEB wrote:
You’re a bigger idiot than I originally thought. Even a borderline moron would realize that if I didn’t want to respond I would not have gone on for 13 pages debating people far and away brighter than you on this topic (granted that’s not saying much). So don’t wear your arm out patting yourself on the back it is unwarranted. You are not my match on any topic be it the legalization of pot or anything else politically related. You’re just not smart enough.[/quote]

And yet you still duck and dive…

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Furthermore if you had read the entire thread you would realize that you did not respond to my many prior points. I have stated them and restated them. So far the only thing you “tore the shit out of” was the waist line of last years jeans. All you’ve done in this thread is what you usually do storm around name calling and make a general nuisance of yourself.

As for ad hominem attacks you are the king![/quote]

I love how you’re still leading with ad hominems, while pissing and moaning about my supposed name calling. LOL…you’re such a dipshit. Glad to see you putting your douchebaggery on display for the entire forum, yet again.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Once again, I’m not hitting the reset button for you. Where were you 13 pages ago when we were debating this issue inside and out? You wanted none of it did you? Now that the thread is on its last legs you decide to come in and revive it. Were you afraid to jump in earlier? Did you feel you needed more cover before you tried to make your (foolish) point? Regardless, I am not going to restate my arguments for you because you are too lazy to go back and read a dozen pages.

If you want to answer my primary argument go back to pages 2 through 12 and have at it. If you can actually refute my many points I will jump in again and respond. But your usual blow hard tactics won’t work.

So get busy and actually read the entire thread. Then post back regarding my specific points. If you do that I’m in. If you fail to do that and respond once again like an ignoramus I will do what about 10-15 of my peers on this site have already done and put you on ignore.

Got it? [/quote]

Piss off, ZEB. You’re just looking for an out, and a reason not to respond to my links. That would be easy for you wouldn’t it? Just keep crying about all my “big meany talk” while continually throwing ad hominems my way, put me on ignore, and just slink away. Then just do it and be done with it, douche, slink away. Fucks sake you whine alot.

You seriously pissing and moaning because I haven’t been involved in this thread since your first post in it? That’s all you have!? LOL…classic.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
“WAAAAAAAAA! bigflamer’s late to the party! and he’s pissing in my cheerios!! He can’t jump in NOW!! He hasn’t been involved since the beginning!! WAAAAAAAAAA!! I’ll just put him on ignore!! WAAAAAAAAA!!”[/quote]

You sound like some old ass conservative honkey; moaning and groaning about “that damn marijuana”. You probably yell at kids to get off you lawn too, don’t you, jack ass.

Try this; respond to my links, or just piss the fuck off. All you’re doing is moving the goal posts and avoiding the argument. And if you want to put me on ignore, then just fucking do it. It’s the pinnacle of sad watching you set that whole thing up.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
You don’t get to jump in on page 13 and hit the reset button. I’ve been debating this topic for 13 pages, long before you jumped in, and now you want it all repeated just for little old you. That’s not happening. So I will tell you one more time. You can go back to page 1 or 2 where I began and you can try to refute my basic arguments. Short of that you can continue to prove why you’re the most ignored man on T Nation and continue to play the part of the village idiot, or you can scroll back and do some work.

I couldn’t care less either way.[/quote]

HAHA!

I tore the shit out of your consumption argument, and even reposted my links; you still won’t respond to them. This is you trying to slink out of the thread since you have no argument. You’re trying to paint me as not having an argument, while consistently avaoiding the argument. Know what that is? That’s you being a pussy.

Go on now, slink away…LOL[/quote]

Got it? [/quote]

@flamer How Dare you disagree with Zebadiah Asshatt
[/quote]

And this from the absolute dumbest guy on T Nation bar none!

Duuuuh…did you figure out what capital gains are yet Pittski?

LOL…[/quote]

Different thread Asshatt

Zebadiah Asshatt’s technique for arguing is good at first, then when you push him into a corner where his argument makes NO SENSE then he will not answer or he will change the subject . It will never be right with Zebadiah until faux news or Bill O’reilly says it should be legal

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
You’re a bigger idiot than I originally thought. Even a borderline moron would realize that if I didn’t want to respond I would not have gone on for 13 pages debating people far and away brighter than you on this topic (granted that’s not saying much). So don’t wear your arm out patting yourself on the back it is unwarranted. You are not my match on any topic be it the legalization of pot or anything else politically related. You’re just not smart enough.[/quote]

And yet you still duck and dive…

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Furthermore if you had read the entire thread you would realize that you did not respond to my many prior points. I have stated them and restated them. So far the only thing you “tore the shit out of” was the waist line of last years jeans. All you’ve done in this thread is what you usually do storm around name calling and make a general nuisance of yourself.

As for ad hominem attacks you are the king![/quote]

I love how you’re still leading with ad hominems, while pissing and moaning about my supposed name calling. LOL…you’re such a dipshit. Glad to see you putting your douchebaggery on display for the entire forum, yet again.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Once again, I’m not hitting the reset button for you. Where were you 13 pages ago when we were debating this issue inside and out? You wanted none of it did you? Now that the thread is on its last legs you decide to come in and revive it. Were you afraid to jump in earlier? Did you feel you needed more cover before you tried to make your (foolish) point? Regardless, I am not going to restate my arguments for you because you are too lazy to go back and read a dozen pages.

If you want to answer my primary argument go back to pages 2 through 12 and have at it. If you can actually refute my many points I will jump in again and respond. But your usual blow hard tactics won’t work.

So get busy and actually read the entire thread. Then post back regarding my specific points. If you do that I’m in. If you fail to do that and respond once again like an ignoramus I will do what about 10-15 of my peers on this site have already done and put you on ignore.

Got it? [/quote]

Piss off, ZEB. You’re just looking for an out, and a reason not to respond to my links. That would be easy for you wouldn’t it? Just keep crying about all my “big meany talk” while continually throwing ad hominems my way, put me on ignore, and just slink away. Then just do it and be done with it, douche, slink away. Fucks sake you whine alot.

You seriously pissing and moaning because I haven’t been involved in this thread since your first post in it? That’s all you have!? LOL…classic.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
“WAAAAAAAAA! bigflamer’s late to the party! and he’s pissing in my cheerios!! He can’t jump in NOW!! He hasn’t been involved since the beginning!! WAAAAAAAAAA!! I’ll just put him on ignore!! WAAAAAAAAA!!”[/quote]

You sound like some old ass conservative honkey; moaning and groaning about “that damn marijuana”. You probably yell at kids to get off you lawn too, don’t you, jack ass.

Try this; respond to my links, or just piss the fuck off. All you’re doing is moving the goal posts and avoiding the argument. And if you want to put me on ignore, then just fucking do it. It’s the pinnacle of sad watching you set that whole thing up.[/quote]

One more post by you and still no response to my many, many posts. You just don’t want to do the work do you?

Why am I not surprised.

The reset button will not be hit for you Assflamer so go do the work…run along now.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Zebadiah Asshatt’s technique for arguing is good at first, then when you push him into a corner where his argument makes NO SENSE then he will not answer or he will change the subject . It will never be right with Zebadiah until faux news or Bill O’reilly says it should be legal[/quote]

Yet, you’ve never, not one time, been able to refute any of my arguments. And since you started the thread you have no excuse. At least Assflamer can claim laziness.

Your best argument so far: “Ahhhh I got friends who smoke dope and um…ahhh…they hold down jobs…ahhh…duh dope is gooooood.”

Nice Pittski keep up the good work.

You are the best example of why people sholdn’t get involved with drugs.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
You’re a bigger idiot than I originally thought. Even a borderline moron would realize that if I didn’t want to respond I would not have gone on for 13 pages debating people far and away brighter than you on this topic (granted that’s not saying much). So don’t wear your arm out patting yourself on the back it is unwarranted. You are not my match on any topic be it the legalization of pot or anything else politically related. You’re just not smart enough.[/quote]

And yet you still duck and dive…

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Furthermore if you had read the entire thread you would realize that you did not respond to my many prior points. I have stated them and restated them. So far the only thing you “tore the shit out of” was the waist line of last years jeans. All you’ve done in this thread is what you usually do storm around name calling and make a general nuisance of yourself.

As for ad hominem attacks you are the king![/quote]

I love how you’re still leading with ad hominems, while pissing and moaning about my supposed name calling. LOL…you’re such a dipshit. Glad to see you putting your douchebaggery on display for the entire forum, yet again.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Once again, I’m not hitting the reset button for you. Where were you 13 pages ago when we were debating this issue inside and out? You wanted none of it did you? Now that the thread is on its last legs you decide to come in and revive it. Were you afraid to jump in earlier? Did you feel you needed more cover before you tried to make your (foolish) point? Regardless, I am not going to restate my arguments for you because you are too lazy to go back and read a dozen pages.

If you want to answer my primary argument go back to pages 2 through 12 and have at it. If you can actually refute my many points I will jump in again and respond. But your usual blow hard tactics won’t work.

So get busy and actually read the entire thread. Then post back regarding my specific points. If you do that I’m in. If you fail to do that and respond once again like an ignoramus I will do what about 10-15 of my peers on this site have already done and put you on ignore.

Got it? [/quote]

Piss off, ZEB. You’re just looking for an out, and a reason not to respond to my links. That would be easy for you wouldn’t it? Just keep crying about all my “big meany talk” while continually throwing ad hominems my way, put me on ignore, and just slink away. Then just do it and be done with it, douche, slink away. Fucks sake you whine alot.

You seriously pissing and moaning because I haven’t been involved in this thread since your first post in it? That’s all you have!? LOL…classic.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
“WAAAAAAAAA! bigflamer’s late to the party! and he’s pissing in my cheerios!! He can’t jump in NOW!! He hasn’t been involved since the beginning!! WAAAAAAAAAA!! I’ll just put him on ignore!! WAAAAAAAAA!!”[/quote]

You sound like some old ass conservative honkey; moaning and groaning about “that damn marijuana”. You probably yell at kids to get off you lawn too, don’t you, jack ass.

Try this; respond to my links, or just piss the fuck off. All you’re doing is moving the goal posts and avoiding the argument. And if you want to put me on ignore, then just fucking do it. It’s the pinnacle of sad watching you set that whole thing up.[/quote]

One more post by you and still no response to my many, many posts. You just don’t want to do the work do you?

Why am I not surprised.

The reset button will not be hit for you Assflamer so go do the work…run along now.[/quote]

More bullshit from you. I responded to you, with links to back me up. You STILL HAVE NOT RESPONDED TO MINE.

Still haven’t responded.

Still whining and blathering.

Still ducking and diving.

Still ZEB.

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
You’re a bigger idiot than I originally thought. Even a borderline moron would realize that if I didn’t want to respond I would not have gone on for 13 pages debating people far and away brighter than you on this topic (granted that’s not saying much). So don’t wear your arm out patting yourself on the back it is unwarranted. You are not my match on any topic be it the legalization of pot or anything else politically related. You’re just not smart enough.[/quote]

And yet you still duck and dive…

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Furthermore if you had read the entire thread you would realize that you did not respond to my many prior points. I have stated them and restated them. So far the only thing you “tore the shit out of” was the waist line of last years jeans. All you’ve done in this thread is what you usually do storm around name calling and make a general nuisance of yourself.

As for ad hominem attacks you are the king![/quote]

I love how you’re still leading with ad hominems, while pissing and moaning about my supposed name calling. LOL…you’re such a dipshit. Glad to see you putting your douchebaggery on display for the entire forum, yet again.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Once again, I’m not hitting the reset button for you. Where were you 13 pages ago when we were debating this issue inside and out? You wanted none of it did you? Now that the thread is on its last legs you decide to come in and revive it. Were you afraid to jump in earlier? Did you feel you needed more cover before you tried to make your (foolish) point? Regardless, I am not going to restate my arguments for you because you are too lazy to go back and read a dozen pages.

If you want to answer my primary argument go back to pages 2 through 12 and have at it. If you can actually refute my many points I will jump in again and respond. But your usual blow hard tactics won’t work.

So get busy and actually read the entire thread. Then post back regarding my specific points. If you do that I’m in. If you fail to do that and respond once again like an ignoramus I will do what about 10-15 of my peers on this site have already done and put you on ignore.

Got it? [/quote]

Piss off, ZEB. You’re just looking for an out, and a reason not to respond to my links. That would be easy for you wouldn’t it? Just keep crying about all my “big meany talk” while continually throwing ad hominems my way, put me on ignore, and just slink away. Then just do it and be done with it, douche, slink away. Fucks sake you whine alot.

You seriously pissing and moaning because I haven’t been involved in this thread since your first post in it? That’s all you have!? LOL…classic.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
“WAAAAAAAAA! bigflamer’s late to the party! and he’s pissing in my cheerios!! He can’t jump in NOW!! He hasn’t been involved since the beginning!! WAAAAAAAAAA!! I’ll just put him on ignore!! WAAAAAAAAA!!”[/quote]

You sound like some old ass conservative honkey; moaning and groaning about “that damn marijuana”. You probably yell at kids to get off you lawn too, don’t you, jack ass.

Try this; respond to my links, or just piss the fuck off. All you’re doing is moving the goal posts and avoiding the argument. And if you want to put me on ignore, then just fucking do it. It’s the pinnacle of sad watching you set that whole thing up.[/quote]

One more post by you and still no response to my many, many posts. You just don’t want to do the work do you?

Why am I not surprised.

The reset button will not be hit for you Assflamer so go do the work…run along now.[/quote]

More bullshit from you. I responded to you, with links to back me up. You STILL HAVE NOT RESPONDED TO MINE.

Still haven’t responded.

Still whining and blathering.

Still ducking and diving.

Still ZEB.[/quote]

You are not as big a moron as Pittski but you are close.

Just because you jump into a thread that has been going on for 12 pages before you got here and drop a half dozen links does not mean that you have answered any of my arguments. You want it to all begin again because you are soooo very special. Funny stuff!

So, for the last time if you really want to have a debate on this topic, instead of your usual blather go back through the thread and answer my many arguments that were presented in detail and at length. For the third and final time I will not hit the reset button for you! I know you’re not the brightest bulb in the pack but even you should understand this by now.

Otherwise, I am going to do what many other T Nation members have already wisely done, I’ll put you on ignore. And by the way you will be the first person that I have put on ignore in T Nation history.

The choice is yours. You can do the work and have that debate that you pretend you want, or you can continue to play a part which mother nature groomed you for…Ass Clown.

The choice is yours.

Unless I missed something Zeb (correct me if I did), I went through this thread from the beginning and I’m having a hard time finding your arguments “presented in detail and at length.” I see a lot of baseless claims and opinions. The “studies” you posted were refuted pretty well by Prof X so no need to re-do that. Really most of this thread seems to be a pointless back and forth with you and Pitbull about if ti was legal consumption would go up. Yeah, no shit, not sure why he can’t concede that. All of the harmful effects posted by you or TB really are related to smoking it which ignores the myriad other ways to ingest it. Your position off attempting to dismiss any comparison to alcohol is cute but it is at the crux of the matter. We are talking about legalizing THIS drug not all drugs (that’s another thread)so its merit in relation to others that are legal is relevant especially when your sole counter position seems to be “What benefit to society does it have?” and none of the other drugs that are being compared have any more legitimate “benefits to society”. But let’s take some of your direct quotes:

“Legalize pot and you’ve introduced more pain in many forms into our society.” --yes a very well researched, lengthy and detailed argument. This statement could be applied to so many things beyond pot it is ridiculous and it is subjective and really painful in its naïveté.

“[keeping it illegal]…This in turn keeps medical costs down and the pain of more traffic fatalities down.” Not only completely unprovable but actually you could make the counter argument in medical.

“Legalization and legitimizing leads to more consumption which leads to more social and legal pain and higher health care costs.” Again complete conjecture and you could argue that the war on drugs is what is creating more social and legal pain very easily. Hell why don’t I let the Global Commission on Drug Policy say it "June 2011, “The global war on drugs has failed, with devastating consequences for individuals and societies around the world.”

“Regardless of how it is consumed, long term use is unhealthy.” Do you have any solid proof of this that doesn’t fall apart when you look at the study, especially ones that have looked at consumption through means other than smoking? Long term use of soda pop/coke is unhealthy regardless of how it is consumed, don’t suppose you want to band together will those NY libs that want to restrict access to it do you?

“a drug which alters your perception and your senses in general could also cause you to drive with less effectiveness?”—true, do these studies and traffic reports show the prescription drugs they are on? I’m equally worried about someone driving on Paxil as I am stoned. Either way, enforce current law about driving while intoxicated. Again though as much as you wish to dismiss any comparisons for convenience to other drugs, it is warranted here as you are railing about the untold traffic accidents we could be avoiding without real understanding of the effect of the myriad other perception altering drugs people can buy over the counter.

Side note I have no personal issue with Zeb and think he brings a lot of common sense where it is needed. This issue does not seem to be one of those*

^Good post. I also mentioned the other commonly used over the counter drugs that affect perception and not one of these guys seems to be “angry” about that at all. Benadryl should be getting commercials about driving after taking it if people are this “health conscious”.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
^Good post. I also mentioned the other commonly used over the counter drugs that affect perception and not one of these guys seems to be “angry” about that at all. Benadryl should be getting commercials about driving after taking it if people are this “health conscious”.[/quote]

I already corrected you on this point at least twice. You cannot make an argument that pot should be legalized because there are other dangerous drugs that are legal as well.

And…you should be smarter than to rely on this argument to begin with.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
^Good post. I also mentioned the other commonly used over the counter drugs that affect perception and not one of these guys seems to be “angry” about that at all. Benadryl should be getting commercials about driving after taking it if people are this “health conscious”.[/quote]

I already corrected you on this point at least twice. You cannot make an argument that pot should be legalized because there are other dangerous drugs that are legal as well.

And…you should be smarter than to rely on this argument to begin with.

[/quote]

That wasn’t my argument. My argument is, HELLO, McFLY, that there are already tons of people on the road on MIND ALTERING medications and I don’t see any of you crying about you are worried that more kids may take Nyquil trying to imitate a Sizzurp high.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
^Good post. I also mentioned the other commonly used over the counter drugs that affect perception and not one of these guys seems to be “angry” about that at all. Benadryl should be getting commercials about driving after taking it if people are this “health conscious”.[/quote]

I already corrected you on this point at least twice. You cannot make an argument that pot should be legalized because there are other dangerous drugs that are legal as well.

And…you should be smarter than to rely on this argument to begin with.

[/quote]

That wasn’t my argument. My argument is, HELLO, McFLY, that there are already tons of people on the road on MIND ALTERING medications and I don’t see any of you crying about you are worried that more kids may take Nyquil trying to imitate a Sizzurp high.[/quote]

You are now showing a basic lack of logic. You are claiming that there are people who use mind altering drugs on the road already, which we can agree is a bad thing. Yet, you want to make one more mind altering drug legal which will only worsen the problem.

Now tell us all how that helps our youth, the general public or society as a whole?

[quote]storey420 wrote:
Unless I missed something Zeb (correct me if I did), I went through this thread from the beginning and I’m having a hard time finding your arguments “presented in detail and at length.” I see a lot of baseless claims and opinions. The “studies” you posted were refuted pretty well by Prof X so no need to re-do that.[/quote]

POX refuted nothing. You happen to fall on his side when it comes to the legalization of this drug so you are claiming the he refuted my arguments. So, post those refutations so that I can see them as I debated him and never felt that he even came close to refuting my basic arguments. He used the same logic as he has just used above…FAULTY!

It’s not only Pit, be fair. And one reason that many (not all) on the other side cannot concede that point is because when use goes up so do traffic fatalities, health problems, costs and other social problems. In short, more people walking around stoned does not really help anyone. Yes, we save about a trillion dollars over the next several years fighting the drug war…a good thing. But we spend trillions more because of the pain that it spreads when consumption goes up. So what is the answer? Perhaps that is for much smarter people than you and I to figure out. But I KNOW that legalization is a very poor resolution.

I contend that it is worse to smoke it at least that is what science tells us. Inhaling smoke through your lungs is bad for you–BIG SURPRISE. However, I also posted many studies which speak directly to the negative consequences that it has on the brain itself regardless of how it is consumed. One link that I posted and reposted stated flatly that teens who use early and for several years suffer negative changes in their brains.

I could just as easily use your argument to argue that the drugs you mention should be illegal. It depends on which side you stand on. Either way, there can be no argument that compares pot to alcohol which would cause any person to think that the legalization of pot is a good idea because “it is no more harmful than alcohol.” Perhaps it is less harmful in some ways and more harmful in other ways.

See my point?

I agree it could be used for so many other things. Let’s take a few examples. Let’s get rid of all gun permits and anyone who wants to buy a gun can just buy one, no background checks, no permit just buy it and carry it where ever you want. If you are retarded no problem. That will not rise to the same pain that alchol has given us. Since we have had about 340,000 deaths from alcohol related traffic fatalities. But then again how does this irresponsible postion on guns help us? When you compare one negative to another to justify your first negative you have not swung anyone over to your side…especially me.

I used an example that you left out for some reason (you must have forgotten). Alcohol was once illegal and when legalized traffic fatalities, and deaths from alcohol in general have climbed to something like 100,000 per year. I posted a link on that you should read it. Pot is not alcohol but it is a mind altering drug and is capable of having similar if not worse consequences. even if it is twice as safe and only directly or indirectly kills 50,000 people per year that’s nto a good thing. So let’s legalize it because alcohol is legal? Really dumb argument.

Of course it’s conjecture as it has not been legalized. One can only project from past experience. See the alcohol example above. Sure I could be wrong pot might be worse…it might not be as dangerous. Either way however it will cause more pain that you can count on as it causes pain now both in health, social, physical and mental ways. Also, I hope that you are not questioning the base of my argument which is far more than conjecture: “Any substance that is legalized, legitimized and advertised usages goes up.” If you are questioning that then you’d best ask Proctor and Gamble why they spend a half billion dollars per year on advertising. Here’s a clue–IT WORKS!

I have never stated that the war on drugs has been a resounding success have I? However, I have been consistent in claiming that taking away that law will open a pandora’s box. And I also used the example that if you want to lower crime just leave your doors and windows open with a sign “free stuff” and make burglary legal. That will lower crime but I doubt you’d like the cosequences.

I posted links regarding the dangers of long-term use. I’m surprised that you didn’t see them.
Or did you? If you are going to fall back on the “everything harms you with long-term use” excuse, I am disappointed in you. Obviously, too much bubble gum will harm your teeth. But too much bubble gum will not harm brain cells or cause you to drive your car into the little girl crossing the street.

[quote]“a drug which alters your perception and your senses in general could also cause you to drive with less effectiveness?”—true, do these studies and traffic reports show the prescription drugs they are on?
I’m equally worried about someone driving on Paxil as I am stoned. Either way, enforce current law about driving while intoxicated. Again though as much as you wish to dismiss any comparisons for convenience to other drugs, it is warranted here as you are railing about the untold traffic accidents we could be avoiding without real understanding of the effect of the myriad other perception altering drugs people can buy over the counter.[/quote]

Oh no the “there are other drugs that are bad too” argument. Yes, then by all means lets legalize this one drug because other drugs can cause you to get into a traffic accident as well. Once again where’s the logic?

As for enforcing the law. You are want to abandon the this particular drug law so I don’t think you are a believer that laws solve all problems.

[quote]Side note I have no personal issue with Zeb and think he brings a lot of common sense where it is needed. This issue does not seem to be one of those*

[/quote]

We’ve crossed swords before but I always remember you as being a smart person who never takes this stuff personally. Good for you on that. As for the others on this thread, they take this stuff far too personally. Some act like a baby clinging to their bottle when I suggest that pot remain illegal. Professor was perhaps the funniest (since I don’t consider Bigflamer to be a legitimate poster). POX posted a link claiming that pot was no more addictive than caffeine. yet, caffeine is one of the most addictive substances that you can put in your body. I believe that after I pointed that out to him he began a little personal tirade against me. {Sniff…sniff you’re old Zeb so therefore you are wrong…Whaaaa" LOL-But then that’s what he does when he’s losing so it gave me quite a chuckle.

You and I will never see eye to eye on this topic from posting on T Nation. Therefore, you will naturally gravitate toward links and others arguments that align with your own.

But that’s okay I enjoy the give and take.

Take care,

Zeb

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Zebadiah Asshatt’s technique for arguing is good at first, then when you push him into a corner where his argument makes NO SENSE then he will not answer or he will change the subject . It will never be right with Zebadiah until faux news or Bill O’reilly says it should be legal[/quote]

Yet, you’ve never, not one time, been able to refute any of my arguments. And since you started the thread you have no excuse. At least Assflamer can claim laziness.

Your best argument so far: “Ahhhh I got friends who smoke dope and um…ahhh…they hold down jobs…ahhh…duh dope is gooooood.”

Nice Pittski keep up the good work.

You are the best example of why people sholdn’t get involved with drugs.[/quote]

Simple question Zebadiah Asshatt , where are all these Zombies from 40 50 60 70 years of marijuana usage ?

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Zebadiah Asshatt’s technique for arguing is good at first, then when you push him into a corner where his argument makes NO SENSE then he will not answer or he will change the subject . It will never be right with Zebadiah until faux news or Bill O’reilly says it should be legal[/quote]

Yet, you’ve never, not one time, been able to refute any of my arguments. And since you started the thread you have no excuse. At least Assflamer can claim laziness.

Your best argument so far: “Ahhhh I got friends who smoke dope and um…ahhh…they hold down jobs…ahhh…duh dope is gooooood.”

Nice Pittski keep up the good work.

You are the best example of why people sholdn’t get involved with drugs.[/quote]

Simple question Zebadiah Asshatt , where are all these Zombies from 40 50 60 70 years of marijuana usage ?
[/quote]

They’re the ones voting for Obama Pitski! Where else do you think the democrats get a good portion of their constituents?

Thanks for the detailed reply Zeb. I think honestly if you met more users of this particular drug that are smart, responsible, successful, conservative Americans it may change your opinion. Maybe not, maybe you already have. When I said Prof X refuted your studies I meant the traffic ones, which I think he did pretty well. Even the one you pointed out with Dr Volkow and how she is a pinnacle of expertise (at least that was intimated pretty clearly in the subsequent posts).

She has gone on record saying “just say no” is stupid and not realistic but more importantly she has gone on record saying some of the high sugar/fat processed foods in our food supply are as, if not more, addictive than crack. Things like this, coupled with the glaringly obvious examples of how much more devastating alcohol is are part of the crux of the issue for me and that is one word (well maybe two) SERIAL HYPOCRISY

Why in the hell should I listen to the government’s argument on the illegality of this PLANT when they continue to approve and push forward into mass consumption things that are arguably (and truly) worse than this plant. So with all the studies we’ve been able to wrangle so far we’ve determined that kids/teens taking it is bad (no shit) and that chronic use is bad long term (again no shit).

Neither of these make a strong case for why I should believe that the government has any right to step in and say that this herb, that has been in use for centuries and is the least harmful of any of the drugs in this category, should be prohibited from responsible recreational use by consenting adults.

What is holding this agenda back is voters that still have a skewed perspective of the dangers of marijuana (mostly older voters brought up in the periphery of complete nonsense propaganda by the government. Also you have vested interests by pharmaceutical not to do this as well. You could make an argument for how this affects insurance companies, etc. but if they can come up with policies and guidelines for pharmaceutical drug users then they can come up with ones for this.

I know you hate this argument but it is complete and utter BS that we allow people to take these strong SSRI drugs legally which are devastating and very mind altering yet we demonize a plant.

As far as your “contribution to society” argument by letting this one go, like I said for me it comes down more to hypocrisy but the late great Bill Hicks (I know you’ve already said you weren’t familiar with his comedy)really said it best: "?See I think drugs have done some good things for us, I really do, and if you don’t believe drugs have done good things for us, do me a favor: go home tonight and take all your albums, all your tapes, and all your cds and burn 'em. 'cause you know the musicians who made all that great music that’s enhanced your lives throughout the years… rrrrrrrrreal f**kin high on drugs.?