I convinced my buddy to start training with me about 6 weeks ago and he’s doing Rippetoe’s Starting Strength. He just wants to get a bit bigger and stronger for rugby so I started him off on this and he’s been making fantastic gains on it since, especially on the squat and deadlift.
He decided to throw in some sit-ups at the end and I advised him to so some weighted ones and the roman chair we have at our rugby gym. But he’s started to experience a sharp pain while doing these at the back of his knee. I’m stumped as to why and I can only make a wild stab at the problem.
I know Rippetoe mentioned recently on his forums that he’s changed his mind about roman chair sit-ups as they can lead to an inordinate amount of spinal shear with a heavy weight but I figured they would be alright for us as the roman chair is the best tool we have for weighted sit-ups.
Has anyone had experience similar to this or heard of this happening to other people? Aside from my friend being unable to do this helpful exercise I’ve become intriuged at the problem myself.
ANy help offered appreciated.
Regards,
Kev
The sharp pain could be many things! As he plays rugby you can safely assume that this is where the problem originated. The Roman Chair sit-up may be just aggravating the problem.
There are many versions of the roman chair apparatus, which will shift tensions / shear forces around the knee joint in different (negative) ways. Therefore it is hard to discern what might be going on without first knowing what type of roman chair you are both using and second’ how your friend moves doing the roman chair sit-ups.
The Roman Chair that I imagine you are using is the seated version ‘without a seat’ where you are standing with the anterior surface of the feet and ankles locked in place with a pad while another pad presses against the back of the knees, leaving your upper legs and body free to move (correct me if I am wrong?). The shear and rotary forces experienced by the knees and the anterior displacement of the tibia as you descend ‘back’ can contribute to many, amny problems!
Anyway’ just to get you guys thinking, here are some ideas that can lead to Pain in the back of knee:
Damaged cartilage
Strained hamstring
Strained Popliteus
Baker Cyst
Knee Cap problems, which can refer pain posteriorly.
As always stop what is causing the pain and go to a professional sports therapist to get this looked at!
Sharp pain = PROBLEM!
[quote]Jereth127 wrote:
I convinced my buddy to start training with me about 6 weeks ago and he’s doing Rippetoe’s Starting Strength. He just wants to get a bit bigger and stronger for rugby so I started him off on this and he’s been making fantastic gains on it since, especially on the squat and deadlift.
He decided to throw in some sit-ups at the end and I advised him to so some weighted ones and the roman chair we have at our rugby gym. But he’s started to experience a sharp pain while doing these at the back of his knee. I’m stumped as to why and I can only make a wild stab at the problem.
I know Rippetoe mentioned recently on his forums that he’s changed his mind about roman chair sit-ups as they can lead to an inordinate amount of spinal shear with a heavy weight but I figured they would be alright for us as the roman chair is the best tool we have for weighted sit-ups.
Has anyone had experience similar to this or heard of this happening to other people? Aside from my friend being unable to do this helpful exercise I’ve become intriuged at the problem myself.
ANy help offered appreciated.
Regards,
Kev
[/quote]
Just a couple of things not on the list above. Is he using his hamstrings to stabilize himself in the chair against the load (so some sort of a hamstring curl??) The popliteal muscle (sp?) at the back of the knee assists this, (and produces inward rotation of the tibia) if he has too much load going through the ankles and rotating the shins outward, he could really be overworking this.
Anyway, why do weighted situps? I used to do a ton of those and realized that the best ab exercises I do are all static. Go to the pullup bar, grab on and hold your legs out at 90 degrees for 30 sec. Then try dragon flys:
– jj
Worzel and JJ, thanks for the replies.
I thought it might be best to get a few video’s of him doing short sets of the sit-ups with a light weight so I caught up with him yesterday and took the following video’s. I kept the sets short and the weight light for obvious reasons and this is the first time he’s done sit-ups in a few weeks.
Here are the video’s anyway:
All video’s put on on YouTube with his permission of course.
He was telling me more about the pain earlier, he showed me where he feels the pain and it seems to be at both the distal end of the femur and the proximal end of the tibia of his right leg but he also experiences a similar feeling in the left knee but just not as painful or as soon.
Do these video’s shed any light on the situation? Thoughts on what he’s doing wrong?
On a lighter note, I had no idea I sounded like that!
[quote]Jereth127 wrote:
Thoughts on what he’s doing wrong?
[/quote]
Not trying to be a smartarse but the actual choice of exercise is what he is doing wrong!
In that position you ‘will’ work your abdominals BUT you are dominating your hip flexors! What purpose does this serve?
Your psoas, iliacus and rectus femoris will be firing like crazy to execute the movement and in the process your hamstrings will be inhibited. This in turn will prevent the natural action of ‘bracing’ that is provided from the co-contraction of these muscles resulting in unnecessary movement of the knee joint.
Also’ your tibialis anterior will be firing like crazy inhibiting the gastroc, which also braces the knee joint along with the hammies. No bracing = instability in the knee joint = possible injury / pain
This exercise is a disaster waiting to happen. There are soo many alternative movements to chose from so I suggest you tell your buddy to drop this exercise and come up with one that doesnt result in a weird sharp pain in the back of his knees!
There is no point in guessing what might be hurting him becasue the exercise choice is so bad! If the pain manifests itself during a functional movement (not going to debate what ‘functional’ is, but you get what I mean when we use the above exercise as a reference to what is non-functional) then we can try and figure out what is going on
Again, thanks for the reply Worzel, very informative.
To be honest, I’m a pretty no-bullshit guy when it comes to training. I just like to stick with the tried and tested movements and since we don’t have a decline bench with ample leg support, I thought the Glute Ham Raise would serve as a suitable substitute for an often recommended exercise.
After reading over your post, I can see a definite movement in his hamstrings in the first video.
I told him to stop that exercise since he first got the pain and I only asked him to do it for those short videos.
He hasn’t reported any pain in his squats or deadlifts as of yet but I’ll tell him to keep an eye out.
Any suggestions for other exercises?
You cant beat ab roll-outs, either with an ab-wheel or weighted barbell.
To turn this exercise into a hero maker just do it from a standing position. This exercise will not only dominate your abdominals but will also tie the hip flexors, quads, glutes, lower back and upper body all into one sweet movement. All these muscles working in harmony and in one functional kinetic chain.
This guy shows you how’ but you probably know this already!
Putting more plates on will make it more difficult while attaching the band ‘away from you’ makes it even more challenging. Your whole front line is worked!
Training for sport should involve the whole body as much as you can, as this will prevent weak links from developing through the over emphasis of specific areas at the expense of others, as in roman chair weighted sit-up.
[quote]worzel wrote:
Training for sport should involve the whole body as much as you can, as this will prevent weak links from developing through the over emphasis of specific areas at the expense of others, as in roman chair weighted sit-up.[/quote]
Agreed, but I was using the sit-ups as an assistance in order to aid his squat, deadlift and shoulder press, not for anything specific to rugby.
Must try the roll-outs myself sometime. My training volume is already pretty high but I’ll be starting 5/3/1 sometime soon and that should bring it down a bit.
Much thanks for the help Worzel, very much appreciated.
Regards,
Kev.
[quote]Jereth127 wrote:
Agreed, but I was using the sit-ups as an assistance in order to aid his squat, deadlift and shoulder press, not for anything specific to rugby.[/quote]
The ab rollouts will do all this for you. What people dont realise is that your squat and deadlift will be compromised if you do not have ‘balanced stability & strength’ in the core. If you do not have this balanced stability & strength your body will not allow you to lift heavy or even use full range of motion for fear of injury. Check out the following short article by Alwyn Cosgrove
http://alwyncosgrove.com/2010/04/moments-of-clarity/
Tight hip flexors will result from roman chair sit-ups, which will inhibit your hammies and glutes causing an actual decrease in strength. Think anterior pelvic tilt!
[quote]Jereth127 wrote:
Much thanks for the help Worzel, very much appreciated.
Regards,
Kev.[/quote]
No problem!
