Big difference between slavery and duty and responsibility.
Freedom didn’t just spring from the ground. It’s not the norm for most of history. Freedom is earned and then defended and the path is not always smooth.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
rainjack wrote:
I think everyone should serve, and if not voluntarily - then as a condition of citizenship. Or at the very least as part of their education.
I suspect we have another Heinlein fan in our midst. Starship Troopers, RJ?[/quote]
Not much of a Sci-Fi fan.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
But I am not talking military only. There is another thread where i say it could be any kind of service.
[/quote]
I agree with this. I find it reasonable to expect everybody to do something for the common good. It doesn’t have to be military service.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Well, I was in the Army, and even during basic training I never felt like a slave. Of course, nobody put a gun to my head and forced to join, I volunteered for service, with the full understanding of what it would entail.
Had I been pressed into military service like a conscript during the Vietnam war, I might have felt differently about it.
National service, however, is one area where I find myself disagreeing with Irish, and agreeing with Rainjack. I think all able-bodied young men should learn about duty, honor and responsibility through military service, or some other form of service. What other options do they have? The Boy Scouts? street gangs?
Orion, if you want to talk about slavery in the US, then you want to talk about the US prison system, not the military. The 13th Amendment to the constitution permits slavery and involuntary servitude for people convicted of crimes. There are currently close to two million prisoners languishing in state, federal and privately operated prisons, most of whom would probably meet the definitions of slaves that you provided.
Interestingly, almost half of these prisoners are black, meaning that one practical result of the American Civil War was to transfer ownership of black slaves out of the hands of private citizens and into the hands of the State.
But I digress.
Putting on my Varqarnac hat for RJ’s benefit, I predict that there will come a time when the military will start tapping this vast pool of manpower, offering violent criminals a reduction in their sentences in exchange for combat service. It probably happens now, but only on a limited, individual scale. Surely many’s the soldier, sailor or Marine who accepted the option of military service in lieu of a lengthy stay behind bars.
But what I’m talking about is something different. I can imagine that in the future, as the “War on Terror” progresses, there will be all-con battalions manning the front lines, with an attached company of military police to keep them in line.
Then you can talk about slavery in the military.[/quote]
Penal battalions, Eastern Front style. Let’s hope it never comes to that.
[quote]T-MIA wrote:
If Im not mistaking Orion Austria requires able bodied males to endure a period of service to your armed forces or to community service once they have reached the age of 18.
Im American,proud of the fact and I would never consider doing my part for my countrymen slavery. In fact I would go so far as to say if anyone walked away from the opportunity to SERVE of freewill their country they might want to reevaluate themselves as men. Societies and civilizations are built on that entities members willingness to participate at all levels possible to make the collective great.
[/quote]
I do not really disagree with you.
I just do not think it is the job of a government to force people to behave in a “moral” or “virtous” manner.
All you learn this way is to bow to force and this can hardly be the lesson that breeds men who can build and maintain a democratic republic.
Voluntary participation makes a society great, involuntary particpation did neither the Sowjet Union nor China much good.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
rainjack wrote:
I think everyone should serve, and if not voluntarily - then as a condition of citizenship. Or at the very least as part of their education.
I suspect we have another Heinlein fan in our midst. Starship Troopers, RJ?
Not much of a Sci-Fi fan. [/quote]
Read it anyway.
[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
rainjack wrote:
But I am not talking military only. There is another thread where i say it could be any kind of service.
I agree with this. I find it reasonable to expect everybody to do something for the common good. It doesn’t have to be military service.
[/quote]
Ah, the common good.
As in defined by whom, for what purposes and how long will it take until this well meant government project will be perverted like all that came before?
Because and this goes to RJ, this is the one federal programm that will actually work?
Once it is established that involuntary service is a-ok for the common good, how long will it take to establish quite interesting meanings of “common good”?
Plus, I live in a country where we have this system.
I does not work the way you want it to.
It breeds contempt, that is all.
All your noble, socialist ideas of re-educating young men are simply BS in reality.
[quote]orion wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
rainjack wrote:
I think everyone should serve, and if not voluntarily - then as a condition of citizenship. Or at the very least as part of their education.
I suspect we have another Heinlein fan in our midst. Starship Troopers, RJ?
Not much of a Sci-Fi fan.
Read it anyway.
[/quote]
You guys give me all the fiction I need to read. Thanks anyway though.
[quote]orion wrote:
Because and this goes to RJ, this is the one federal programm that will actually work?
[/quote]
Well - it would be one of the few (if there are any others) that doesn’t cost billions of dollars to “manage”. It involves every person in the US - not just a niche market.
In fact, I would say that it would be the best gov’t program ever, since it appeals to a direct power given to the federal government in the constitution: defense.
[quote]orion wrote:
kaaleppi wrote:
I agree with this. I find it reasonable to expect everybody to do something for the common good. It doesn’t have to be military service.
Ah, the common good.
As in defined by whom, for what purposes and how long will it take until this well meant government project will be perverted like all that came before?
Because and this goes to RJ, this is the one federal programm that will actually work?
Once it is established that involuntary service is a-ok for the common good, how long will it take to establish quite interesting meanings of “common good”?
[/quote]
I too live in a country where we have this system. Well, for males only, actually. It isn’t a perfect system, but way better than a professional military, especially for a small country like Finland.
I didn’t refer to a philosophical ‘common good’. Everybody have a little bit different opinion about it’s meaning, but it doesn’t matter, we still understand each other.
[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
orion wrote:
kaaleppi wrote:
I agree with this. I find it reasonable to expect everybody to do something for the common good. It doesn’t have to be military service.
Ah, the common good.
As in defined by whom, for what purposes and how long will it take until this well meant government project will be perverted like all that came before?
Because and this goes to RJ, this is the one federal programm that will actually work?
Once it is established that involuntary service is a-ok for the common good, how long will it take to establish quite interesting meanings of “common good”?
I too live in a country where we have this system. Well, for males only, actually. It isn’t a perfect system, but way better than a professional military, especially for a small country like Finland.
I didn’t refer to a philosophical ‘common good’. Everybody have a little bit different opinion about it’s meaning, but it doesn’t matter, we still understand each other. [/quote]
But this is where I be to differ.
There is no “common good” because there is no entity which needs are more important or that consists of more than the sum of individuals.
To force every single individual to make the summ of all individuals happy is a perverse idea.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
orion wrote:
Because and this goes to RJ, this is the one federal programm that will actually work?
Well - it would be one of the few (if there are any others) that doesn’t cost billions of dollars to “manage”. It involves every person in the US - not just a niche market.
In fact, I would say that it would be the best gov’t program ever, since it appeals to a direct power given to the federal government in the constitution: defense. [/quote]
Opportunity costs.
Everyone forced to serve does not work or gets an education and that means an enormous loss of tax dollars.
This would be one of the most expensive programms in history.
[quote]orion wrote:
Opportunity costs.
Everyone forced to serve does not work or gets an education and that means an enormous loss of tax dollars.
This would be one of the most expensive programms in history.
[/quote]
Opportunity costs are an economics term that has nothing to do with real, cash based accounting.
You make the assumption that all 17-20 year old kids are gainfully employed, and contributing to the gov’t treasury. You must live somewhere else. That is hardly the case here.
I’ll say it again - funding the military is one of the few direct powers given to the federal gov’t. Spending a shitload there is much better than social-welfare programs.
I’d be willing to bet that money spent in military service would almost be offset by savings in the hand-out sector.
[quote]orion wrote:
But this is where I be to differ.
There is no “common good” because there is no entity which needs are more important or that consists of more than the sum of individuals.
To force every single individual to make the summ of all individuals happy is a perverse idea.
[/quote]
I see two options, either a country has a military or it doesn’t. I wish the latter was possible, but that’s not realistic. Should the army be drafted or should it consist of professionals only? I think it should be drafted.
The ‘common good’ that I referred to was the need for a defence. I know it is a ephemeral thought when scrutinized, but it is also very real. I am tied with many bonds to the place where I live.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
orion wrote:
Opportunity costs.
Everyone forced to serve does not work or gets an education and that means an enormous loss of tax dollars.
This would be one of the most expensive programms in history.
Opportunity costs are an economics term that has nothing to do with real, cash based accounting.
You make the assumption that all 17-20 year old kids are gainfully employed, and contributing to the gov’t treasury. You must live somewhere else. That is hardly the case here.
I’ll say it again - funding the military is one of the few direct powers given to the federal gov’t. Spending a shitload there is much better than social-welfare programs.
I’d be willing to bet that money spent in military service would almost be offset by savings in the hand-out sector. [/quote]
Even if they are not employed and spend their parents money that creates opportunity costs.
And no it has nothing to do with accounting but accounting is not the end all and be all of economics. It describes what is and not what could have been.
That is the main cost though of all socialist ideas, what could have been instead of it and never came to be because of it.