Learn From The Fall of Rome

[quote]lixy wrote:
pookie wrote:
Take Iraq as an example. Even if most of the world opinion was against it, no one mobilized their armies to ally with Iraq and stand against the US.

There’s a good reason for that. And that is that they’ll get crushed like ants.

[/quote]

No, he’s right. Even a couple of small nukes won’t lead to war against America. Deep in our hearts, big parts of Europe would even be delighted, thinking, “hehe, you should’ve known better not to fuck with us.”

The rules of play would change though. A century of renewed imperialism and bullying would occur. China would swallow Taiwan. Russia would get their hands on more gas and oil. Africa would be fucked. Arabs would face wars and then again some wars. My country would sooner or later get their own nukes.

[quote]vroom wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
In a volunteer military, a tiny percentage of the population will bear the cost of war. That’s the strongest argument for a draft, in my book, despite all the problems it would cause the military, that it could lead to a regeneration of civic virtue and responsibility.

Gdollars,

I have to ask you, do you think a draft would make the public incredibly quick to vote out the party that sent their sons to war?
[/quote]

Yup. I don’t think it will happen. And I don’t necessarily think it should happen, for mainly military reasons (cohesion). And I think there is something to the Founders’ fear of large standing armies. Look at Britain, which maintained its parliamentary system and evolved toward democracy probably partially as a result of being a naval power, unlike the autocracies and monarchies of continental Europe, with their large standing armies.

I just think that an America with a universal, no deferments draft would quite likely be a place with much more national unity and shared sacrifice. A nation with a conscript army of all its sons is also far less likely to engage in wars of choice and other foreign adventures (Iraq, yes we had good intentions, but it was a war of choice, no way around that).

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
The article itself was kind of interesting – the comptroller general was using a (tired) historical analogy in order to point out some serious issues within the US government without having to assign any blame for them. A very good strategy for a person in his position… A lot of substantive criticisms are probably valid - even if the historical analogy is flawed.

We’re not in any danger of the kind of Malthusian trap that plagued the Roman empire, and the US’s demographic situation is much healthier than comparable OECD economies - particularly Japan and the EU ( http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/isec.2007.32.1.112 ). Of course, the US birth-rate advantage over China, Russia, and Europe stems largely from immigration effects – which are subject to political uncertainty both in here and abroad. But even minus the immigration effect we’re still better off than most, if not by as much. [/quote]

Agree with virtually all of that, especially the demographic issues. Our rot is primarily cultural, as in the abdication of personal responsibility (abortion, rampant lawsuits, obesity).

[quote]hedo wrote:

So your response is basically “no it isn’t”. And it’s a “bullshit war”. Quite effective rhetoric. I’m sure the cell leader is proud. Freaked out was also a poor choice of words. Responded is more accurate. Not that a poor choice of words is something unusual for you right?

Your a kid who was in school in the Arab world and then moved to Western Europe to live off the dole. What would you know about commerce and order in the world besides what you read on the internet. You actually would have had to participate to opine Lixy.

You really aren’t up to this type of debate. Your knowledge is not even Wikpedia deep on this one. You also have this delusion that people give a shit about your opinion Lixy. If you could read, with an open mind, you would get it but you don’t. You are having a very bad week. If you had any pride or shame you’d realize that but it is apparent you have niether. You need to take a big step back and realize you are often wrong and most of the people you argue with have a lot more experience and wisdom then you do. Your agenda doesn’t serve you well when presented with facts and well constructed arguments…as you and everyone else can see. How many times does T Bolt have to bash your head in and embarass you…have you no shame at all.

I’m glad you think I’m a dickhead. And no I will not stop calling you a cyber-Jihadist as long as you keep acting like one. Then again I probably will still you remind you of it even if you did. You have over a thousand posts and all but a handful are in the political section of a US BODYBUILDING site. This is in keeping with the cyber Jihad principle of inundating sports and entertainment sites with your garbage. You’ve been called out and you have done nothing to refute it or demonstrate otherwise. In fact each post you make digs you deeper. I find it comical and let’s be honest do you really think you are taken seriosuly anymore.

And yes if you actually worked out and contributed something to the forums people would tolerate you more.

Lot’s of friendships have been built on this site by people who train together, share ideas, network etc. I highy doubt anyone is looking to train with a 150ib. weenie like you.
Your frustration amuses us you know.

[/quote]

You want to bitch about the Politics Forum jumping the shark, this is why. Lixy isn’t a troll, and he’s not a “cyber-jihadist.” I don’t agree with the vast majority of his stances, especially when he dips into Chomsky-land, and he jumps to conclusions awfully quickly, but he’s not here to recruit for bin Laden or “weaken our resolve,” or some other bullshit. Guy has his biases, which aren’t nearly as stifling as many other posters here. And unlike Headhunter, rainjack, and a host of others, he doesn’t call for mass killing from behind his keyboard.

The speed with which people demonize each other on here is sad. Argue the issue, is it really that hard?

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
I just think that an America with a universal, no deferments draft would quite likely be a place with much more national unity and shared sacrifice. A nation with a conscript army of all its sons is also far less likely to engage in wars of choice and other foreign adventures (Iraq, yes we had good intentions, but it was a war of choice, no way around that).[/quote]

Agreed 100%.

I’m gonna go on a limb here and tell you why it won’t happen. The people in charge are the rich folks who don’t want to put a stop to the “foreign adventures” as tit keep the MIC pumping steam, and the people in government certainly don’t want their kids sent to fight for a cause they wouldn’t even send their dogs to.

Perhaps the best explanation of the fall of the Roman Empire was explicated by Nicholas Davidson in a 1987 article of his entitled The Ancient Suicide of the West.

http://www.fee.org/publications/the-freeman/article.asp?aid=2389

This is one of the best threads I have seen in a while on the politics forum. Good job guys.

Schwarz has some good points about the use of nukes that I did not think of, namely the idea of other countries using them on us. Sure, we could end the world… but many countries have the ability to fuck a lot of things up.

As far as the draft, I am unequivocally against it in peacetime. I think the idea of being in the army is overblown if you are a civilian. The first draft was in 1861, and even then only 2% of Union soldiers were conscripts. It wasn’t employed again till WWI, then again in WWII. We have only used it when we needed it, and it’s worked out just fine- we will turn out when the country needs us.

The idea of the Army making everyone cheery and healthy and responsible is kind of goofy to me, harkening back to an age that never existed, namely the 1950’s that everyone thought was so wonderful. This country was not built on a foundation of everyone serving in the military- it should not start now.

Let the thinkers think and the workers work, and when things get bad we call out the brute force on the bottom. Until then, leave us civilians alone; as I recall, Hitler thought the population in a democracy was too soft to stand up to his tough German types, and we know how that ended. This is America, not Sparta. Thanks.

As far as the fall of the Roman Empire goes… who knows. Historical context is easy to manipulate. You could draw parallels between us and every empire, maybe the British Empire after WWI, etc.

The fact is America is still powerful enough to be safe, and can still fix the foreign policy mistakes we have made in the last ten years in order to become well liked again. If we keep polarizing everything in aboslute terms, and alienating former allies, then it could be another story.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

The fact is America is still powerful enough to be safe, and can still fix the foreign policy mistakes we have made in the last ten years in order to become well liked again. If we keep polarizing everything in aboslute terms, and alienating former allies, then it could be another story. [/quote]

I think this is an interesting concern - America’s “allies”.

Here is the thing - the only value to having an ally is if they can provide you with strength. In the context of possible threats down the road - an emerging superpower (like China) or barbarian “hordes” - what happens when the allies we worked so hard to get on our side are of no use?

Don’t read this as “we should tell our allies to go suck an egg” - I mean it as a strategic question: what happens when our vaunted allies become nothing more than dependents?

Nor should you read this as Euro-bashing for the sake of it. We all know of Europe’s aging population, weakening demographics, and less-than-robust military profile - it is a legitimate concern.

If America is to shift and correct mistakes, part of that correction must be in the form of having allies being able to “take care of business” in the parts of the world America has overextended itself. What happens if our allies can’t provide the strength needed?

Reason I raise this - say America disengages from its overreach. Our biggest ally outside of the Anglo-American alliance is the EU. The EU is perched next to a rogue Russia, within striking distance of a nuclear-tipped Iran, and much closer to the barbarian states of the Middle East on the precipice of turning that area of the world into a vortex of tribal anarchy and conquest.

Yet the EU is losing its culture, and shows signs of its economy/military weakening drastically in time (and it is already weak).

Presumably America wants good allies to help America withdraw from its overreach - but what if our allies are of little help and actually become dependents (as they already are dependent on the US from NATO and the Cold War).

Same goes for the other side of the world w/r/t China - the mantra is “get America back into strong relationships with its allies”, but will it even matter if our allies can’t hold the line against China?

I’ll state it this way - many don’t want America to be “the world’s police” - fair enough, but someone still has to “walk the beat” in key parts of the world. A policeman of some type is still needed in these areas - can we count on our allies to supply the policework needed so America can retire from its overreach?

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
I think this is an interesting concern - America’s “allies”.

Here is the thing - the only value to having an ally is if they can provide you with strength. In the context of possible threats down the road - an emerging superpower (like China) or barbarian “hordes” - what happens when the allies we worked so hard to get on our side are of no use?
[/quote]

I think this is a bit shortsighted.

An ally is worth more than an enemy, even if they are able to offer you nothing other than moral support.

Allies that aren’t kissing your ass style allies are able to get in between you and your enemies and help with appropriate avoidance of military conflict.

Short of that, if your worthless allies were to become your enemies, they can weaken you or force you to maintain even more strength due to an increase in potential overall threat. If they aren’t your allies then the chances of them aiding or supporting your enemies is greatly increased.

Unbelievable.

[quote]vroom wrote:

I think this is a bit shortsighted.

An ally is worth more than an enemy, even if they are able to offer you nothing other than moral support.

Allies that aren’t kissing your ass style allies are able to get in between you and your enemies and help with appropriate avoidance of military conflict.

Short of that, if your worthless allies were to become your enemies, they can weaken you or force you to maintain even more strength due to an increase in potential overall threat. If they aren’t your allies then the chances of them aiding or supporting your enemies is greatly increased.

Unbelievable.[/quote]

As usual, in your zeal to want to stalk my posts, you misstate the entire issue.

Read my post. The point was that America can retire from overreach from its overextended areas only of allies can “hold the line” if something breaks out. If something breaks out, and our allies can’t handle it, the US has to go back to the place from which they withdrew, making the retiring from overreach moot.

Nowhere in my post did I say the US didn’t need allies or should alienate allies - I expressly stated that. I made clear that at no point was I advocating telling weaker allies “adios - you can’t help us”. I raised a practical problem that even with perfect relationships, there are concerns that our allies become more like NATO-style dependents, which would hamper America’s ability to get out of its overextension.

Don’t ruin another thread, Vroom. This is a good thread and I offered up a point of discussion. If you aren’t up to discussing it intelligently, leave it alone and let us enjoy the thread sans your manic desire to get fussy with me.

Holy shit, I turn my back for twelve hours and come back to find that this thread has blossomed like a peach tree.

Kudos to all.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

Varq, I have always been curious about this parallel, but the area in particular that doesn’t get enough discussion is the “home-grown-food-as-national-security-issue”.

[/quote]

It’s true. The point does not get discussed enough. So let’s discuss it.

The Romans fed their citizens with bread made from grain grown in Africa, and shipped across the Mediterranean, up the Tiber river to Rome. This supply of cheap and plentiful grain destroyed domestic Italian agriculture, much as the supply of cheap and plentiful grain from America destroyed British agriculture in the 19th century once the Corn Laws were repealed.

In any case, the farms in Lazio around the capital city were abandoned, or else were not producing, because domestic farmers could not compete. As a result, the citizens of Rome were totally dependent upon this imported grain. They were, in a biological sense, not living where their homes were. Their food, in other words, was not “home-grown.”

And because of this, the grain ships from Africa were the weakest link in the imperial security chain. Note, too, that the barbarians who disrupted the food chain (so to speak)did not need to invade. They were already within the borders of the empire, having been pushed out of Germany by the incursions of the Huns. Back to that later.

Now, compare this precarious situation to the current situation in the United States.

American agriculture is the most productive in the world. We produce so much food that over sixty percent of our population is obese–even our poor people are fat-- and still we have enough left over to sell to less-productive countries, to dole out to poor people in our own country, to donate to other poor people in third-world countries, and still more is left over, which we simply throw away.

Surely, this is the very definition of “home-grown food,” totally invulnerable to the kind of attack perpetrated by the Gothic barbarians in the 5th century.

Or is it?

The majority of our citizens in coastal cities are, like the Romans, not living where their homes are. Lettuces from California, oranges from Florida, beef from Nebraska, corn fom Iowa… all this ends up on the tables of New Yorkers and Washingtonians by means of an elaborate transportation and distribution system depending on trains, ships, airplanes and trucks.

Should this distribution system become distrupted, by means of a terrorist attack on major Interstate highways, railways, harbors and airports, the flow of food to the metropolitan areas would grind to a halt, and people in the cities would starve, just as they did in fifth-century Rome.

An even more subtle way of achieving this same end would be to attack and disable all oil tankers attempting to enter American waters, coupled with attacks on domestic refineries and pipelines. As I mentioned on another thread, American agriculture depends entirely on imported oil, from the first tillage of the soil to the final transportation of food to the grocery store. Stop the oil flowing, and you stop the food, just as sure as a blockade of the Tiber.

So no, Thunder, I do not believe that home-grown food equates to national security in this case, in that we are just as dependent on imports for our sustenance as the Romans were.

As to the comments about barbarians, I define a “restless barbarian” in this case as anyone within or outside the borders of the United States, who refuses to be ruled by the American hegemony, and who is prepared to initiate violence in order to disrupt the advance of the American sphere of influence.

And of this sort of person, there is no shortage.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
As usual, in your zeal to want to stalk my posts, you misstate the entire issue.
[/quote]

Oh please. There is only one politics forum here, don’t be silly.

I didn’t suggest you had said you should alienate allies, but you clearly started your post by positing that the only worthwhile ally is a strong one.


Here is the thing - the only value to having an ally is if they can provide you with strength. In the context of possible threats down the road … what happens when the allies we worked so hard to get on our side are of no use?

I simply disagree with your opening statement that allies have no value if they aren’t strong. Of course, allies that offer military strength will be able to offer support in military matters including potential extraction from current deployments.

[quote]orion wrote:
rainjack wrote:
orion wrote:
rainjack wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
In a volunteer military, a tiny percentage of the population will bear the cost of war. That’s the strongest argument for a draft, in my book, despite all the problems it would cause the military, that it could lead to a regeneration of civic virtue and responsibility.

I agree 100%.

It would set our readiness back, but I think everyone should have to serve their country. Paying taxes not withstanding.

Ah, pro-slavery?

Nope. Pro-service.

Involuntary gun-to-your-head “service”.

There is a word for it.

Slavery.

[/quote]

Nope. They would be paid. They always have been. And when one’s service is up…no more service.

How is that slavery again? Seems to me it spreads military service across all socioeconomic lines.

I guess you prefer only the poor and the minorities serve, huh?

[quote]lixy wrote:
hedo wrote:
Not a single argument. Just more cyber Jihad blah blah…

Why am I not surprised that you dodged every point and went straight for the personal attacks? Oh, I know, I predicted it…right?

I highy doubt anyone is looking to train with a 150ib. weenie like you.

Yes, I’m a newb. Get over it! And it’s 170lbs and gaining…

Geez, I can’t believe what was a very promising thread turned into this. Kudos for ruining the day![/quote]

Simply stating the obvious. You ignore the rest of course.

I doubt you have ever touched a weight in your life. Relying on you for an honest answer, as we have seen, is pointless.

Glad your day was ruined. Pointing out propaganda is rewarding.

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
hedo wrote:

So your response is basically “no it isn’t”. And it’s a “bullshit war”. Quite effective rhetoric. I’m sure the cell leader is proud. Freaked out was also a poor choice of words. Responded is more accurate. Not that a poor choice of words is something unusual for you right?

Your a kid who was in school in the Arab world and then moved to Western Europe to live off the dole. What would you know about commerce and order in the world besides what you read on the internet. You actually would have had to participate to opine Lixy.

You really aren’t up to this type of debate. Your knowledge is not even Wikpedia deep on this one. You also have this delusion that people give a shit about your opinion Lixy. If you could read, with an open mind, you would get it but you don’t. You are having a very bad week. If you had any pride or shame you’d realize that but it is apparent you have niether. You need to take a big step back and realize you are often wrong and most of the people you argue with have a lot more experience and wisdom then you do. Your agenda doesn’t serve you well when presented with facts and well constructed arguments…as you and everyone else can see. How many times does T Bolt have to bash your head in and embarass you…have you no shame at all.

I’m glad you think I’m a dickhead. And no I will not stop calling you a cyber-Jihadist as long as you keep acting like one. Then again I probably will still you remind you of it even if you did. You have over a thousand posts and all but a handful are in the political section of a US BODYBUILDING site. This is in keeping with the cyber Jihad principle of inundating sports and entertainment sites with your garbage. You’ve been called out and you have done nothing to refute it or demonstrate otherwise. In fact each post you make digs you deeper. I find it comical and let’s be honest do you really think you are taken seriosuly anymore.

And yes if you actually worked out and contributed something to the forums people would tolerate you more.

Lot’s of friendships have been built on this site by people who train together, share ideas, network etc. I highy doubt anyone is looking to train with a 150ib. weenie like you.
Your frustration amuses us you know.

You want to bitch about the Politics Forum jumping the shark, this is why. Lixy isn’t a troll, and he’s not a “cyber-jihadist.” I don’t agree with the vast majority of his stances, especially when he dips into Chomsky-land, and he jumps to conclusions awfully quickly, but he’s not here to recruit for bin Laden or “weaken our resolve,” or some other bullshit. Guy has his biases, which aren’t nearly as stifling as many other posters here. And unlike Headhunter, rainjack, and a host of others, he doesn’t call for mass killing from behind his keyboard.

The speed with which people demonize each other on here is sad. Argue the issue, is it really that hard?[/quote]

Actually he is both G Dollars. It is pointless to argue with someone who will never admit he is wrong and will simply lie to make a point. Lixy follows a script and his arrival on T-Nation coincides with a movement. Other sites that moderate more heavily quickly eliminated the trolls. Lixy remains. And yes he is here precisely to spread a message and it’s really not that subtle.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
My point was that we’ve been taught that unselfishness is good. Is it?

The rest of your post isn’t needed. [/quote]

You honestly want to change the surface (Politics) without changing the ‘heart’ (Philosophy). Good luck with that.

The principles the United States was founded upon conflict with the philosophy most humans embrace — unselfishness is good and its okay to use force if the victims of your ‘unselfishness’ don’t want to part with their hard earned dollars. That leads to a mixed economy, and the attendent evils that go with it.

Our society is doomed as long as we embrace the philosophy of altruism. This, for ex, is why Ron Paul’s efforts are simply a waste.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Nope. They would be paid. They always have been. And when one’s service is up…no more service.

How is that slavery again? Seems to me it spreads military service across all socioeconomic lines.

I guess you prefer only the poor and the minorities serve, huh?
[/quote]

RJ,

I understand what you are saying, but I don’t believe that it will spread military service across all socioeconomic lines. The rich and well connected will always have the means to avoid this kind of service (“5 deferments” Dick Cheney, for example), so the bulk of the service will fall on the poor and minorities anyway. The pool of people will get larger, but the dynamics will be largely unchanged.

(BTW, as a side note, just because someone is a minority, doesn’t mean that they are poor. It just so happens that poverty levels are disproportionately populated by minorities because of the way this so-called “great” society in the USA is set up.

Military service is a way for the poor to do better for themselves. So, as a result, there tends to be more minorities in the military. This is a socioeconomic issue and racial issues just happens to be a by-product. As former military yourself, I know that you know all of this firsthand, so this is not a dig at you. I’m just making a general statement for the board. You just happened to be the one that said it.)

However, what it will do is make a larger population of the USA less likely to want to start and support wars without a DAMN good and solid reason if there is even remotely a chance of them or a loved one having to fight in it.

All of the “Keyboard Commandos” and chickenhawk college kids won’t be so all fired up about killing “ragheads” if there was a very real chance that they would have to be there pulling the trigger and possibly getting their own asses shot off.

[quote]ALDurr wrote:
However, what it will do is make a larger population of the USA less likely to want to start and support wars without a DAMN good and solid reason if there is even remotely a chance of them or a loved one having to fight in it.

All of the “Keyboard Commandos” and chickenhawk college kids won’t be so all fired up about killing “ragheads” if there was a very real chance that they would have to be there pulling the trigger and possibly getting their own asses shot off. [/quote]

I don’t there should be any deferments allowed. Period.

I say you take everyone straight from their high school graduation to basic training. They serve 2 years. Then they get a free college education.

I think that by forcing the rich kids into the service, it will slow down the rush to war by the rich parents.

It would be the best deterrent to war we could have. Will the poor also serve? yes.

Plus it could quite possibly give these idiot college kids a little dose of the real world.

Is there a snowball’s chance in hell we will ever see it? Nope.

But the Israeli model is an excellent one, and I think we could learn a thing or two from them.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
You honestly want to change the surface (Politics) without changing the ‘heart’ (Philosophy). Good luck with that.

The principles the United States was founded upon conflict with the philosophy most humans embrace — unselfishness is good and its okay to use force if the victims of your ‘unselfishness’ don’t want to part with their hard earned dollars. That leads to a mixed economy, and the attendent evils that go with it.

Our society is doomed as long as we embrace the philosophy of altruism. This, for ex, is why Ron Paul’s efforts are simply a waste.
[/quote]

I can see the points you are trying to glue together, but society is not doomed. Sure, naivety can be taken advantage of, but having basic assumptions or expectations does not require one to be naive.

In particular, aspiring to some ideal, whether or not we can reach it, is part of the human condition.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
ALDurr wrote:
However, what it will do is make a larger population of the USA less likely to want to start and support wars without a DAMN good and solid reason if there is even remotely a chance of them or a loved one having to fight in it.

All of the “Keyboard Commandos” and chickenhawk college kids won’t be so all fired up about killing “ragheads” if there was a very real chance that they would have to be there pulling the trigger and possibly getting their own asses shot off.

I don’t there should be any deferments allowed. Period.

I say you take everyone straight from their high school graduation to basic training. They serve 2 years. Then they get a free college education.
[/quote]

Agree with most of what you’re saying, but not this. If we were to have national service, the military couldn’t and wouldn’t take every high schooler into basic training. Too many people, labor force implications, etc. It would be a draft lottery, like Vietnam, but no student deferments, no National Guard slots for trust fund kids, only medical deferments from military doctors (we’d need a lot more of those then).

Not sure if that’s who we want to patterning ourselves after necessarily. The IDF is a mess right now, see Lebanon and fallout from it.