Law School?

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[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
youngoldguy wrote:
I am currently in law school, so PM me if you have specific questions. I should say that I go to a top law school, so I am a bit biased, but I think you should absolutely go to the best law school you can. I can tell you from meeting students who go to various schools tha the job options at the very top (Harvard, Columbia, Virginia, Michigan, Georgetown, Cornell, Berkeley, NYU, etc.) are much better than schools not that far below (and still Tier 1/2; schools such as Maryland, American, USD, Hastings, etc.).

I think you’re right in that if you get into a top 25 school, you go there – and if you get in a top 10 school, you go there over number 15. Top 10 is gold for jobs (read that as large private firm and prestigious federal government positions) - top 25 is still pretty damn good.

But if you’re telling me someone should choose number 30 over number 45, I’m not so sure. Absent a “top 25” school, I think other factors take larger importance - particularly geography and affordability. If you want to be a local prosecutor or DA or something, affordability should be a very high consideration indeed…
[/quote]

Very good post BB and I wish I had gotten into this thread sooner.

I went to a good, but not exceptional law school (UConn) and I completely disagree with the idea that if you don’t get into a Top 10 or 25 school, you’re screwed and will never find a job. Total bull (and leave it to CaliforniaLaw to put that junk out there, likely for the purpose of just being an ass).

As BB pointed out, if you want to work at the upper-most firms in the world (Baker & McKenzie, Skadden Arps, Sullivan & Cromwell, Cravath, etc.), your school is everything, to the point that they still want “Ivy League” credentials when recruiting experienced associates.

I handle recruiting for my department and I know a lot of other people who do as well within the company who are seeking attorneys. There are a lot of people who would kill for some of the in-house jobs here, but it’s not like you have to go to Stanford or Yale in order to get that kind of job. We pull in a lot of people from very good school that are not the elite of the elite.

And some of those “top-flight” jobs with the biggest of the big? If I had a dollar for every person I know who has been through that grinder and had to get out because they were miserable… well, I would not be working at all. lol

So basically go to the best school you can that is a good fit for you. The rankings matter, but unless it is a huge jump in ranking numbers, those rankings are not terribly important.

42

Wow, I didn’t realize I would stir up so much emotion just asking for some advice.

Thanks a ton for those who replied. This quest has pretty much consumed my life for the past three months and will continue to do so until I am admitted in the spring.

I know that I will be sucessful in life, no matter what law school I go to.

Kuz-- What was your experience at UConn? That is one of the schools out east that I am thinking about applying to. How hard was it to get in?

Thanks again to everyone, and now I’m off for some Logical Reasoning practice!

43

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
youngoldguy wrote:
I am currently in law school, so PM me if you have specific questions. I should say that I go to a top law school, so I am a bit biased, but I think you should absolutely go to the best law school you can. I can tell you from meeting students who go to various schools tha the job options at the very top (Harvard, Columbia, Virginia, Michigan, Georgetown, Cornell, Berkeley, NYU, etc.) are much better than schools not that far below (and still Tier 1/2; schools such as Maryland, American, USD, Hastings, etc.).

I think you’re right in that if you get into a top 25 school, you go there – and if you get in a top 10 school, you go there over number 15. Top 10 is gold for jobs (read that as large private firm and prestigious federal government positions) - top 25 is still pretty damn good.

But if you’re telling me someone should choose number 30 over number 45, I’m not so sure. Absent a “top 25” school, I think other factors take larger importance - particularly geography and affordability. If you want to be a local prosecutor or DA or something, affordability should be a very high consideration indeed…
[/quote]

I do agree with what you’re saying. I think the further you get from the top the more personal factors have to come into play. If you’re choosing between Fordham and Iowa, for example, there’s considerations for part-time versus full-time and location, cost of living, etc. I

44

[quote]Kuz wrote:
…

And some of those “top-flight” jobs with the biggest of the big? If I had a dollar for every person I know who has been through that grinder and had to get out because they were miserable… well, I would not be working at all. lol

…[/quote]

Ain’t that the truth.

Excuse my digression for a moment, but do keep this in mind for your future career path – the biggest, most prestigious firms have very high associate turn over and are very leveraged, i.e. they have a high ratio of associates to partners. In other words, it’s hard to make partner, and most people do not do so.

Some of that turnover is the choice of the firms, but a lot of it is the choice of the associates. A friend of mine just left and went in-house to work for one of the large quasi-governmental private companies in this area (e.g. Fannie Mae, Sallie Mae, Freddie Mac, etc.). That friend was an 8th year associate who had pretty much been guaranteed by his practice group that the friend would make partner next year, but that friend chose not to do so - took the pay cut for the better lifestyle. Sometimes the marginal value of that extra dollar just isn’t worth it. After all, what good is it really to win the pie-eating contest if your prize is just a lot more pie…

If you do go to a big firm, pick a specialty that gives you exit options - either to go into the government, go in-house or to a boutique law firm. For in house, corporate transactional, general corporate and patent seem to offer good opportunities.

End of my digression. Sorry for the hijack.

45

This is tangentially related but I’ll post the question here because it may, potentially, help our young barrister-to-be make a decision.

For the lawyers here, if you had to do it over again, would you have gone to law school?

My answer: No.

In fact, about 5 years ago I took computer programming classes so I could get into that field. I really liked program but 2001 saw the crash in the tech sector and no one was hiring. In a way, I’m “stuck.” But I enjoy solving tax problems so I’m thinking once I get that additional degree I’ll at least be able to make more money and possibly retire early. Or not.

46

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
This is tangentially related but I’ll post the question here because it may, potentially, help our young barrister-to-be make a decision.

For the lawyers here, if you had to do it over again, would you have gone to law school?

My answer: No.

In fact, about 5 years ago I took computer programming classes so I could get into that field. I really liked program but 2001 saw the crash in the tech sector and no one was hiring. In a way, I’m “stuck.” But I enjoy solving tax problems so I’m thinking once I get that additional degree I’ll at least be able to make more money and possibly retire early. Or not.[/quote]

Yeah, I’d probably do it again for many reasons.

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[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

For the lawyers here, if you had to do it over again, would you have gone to law school?[/quote]

Yes. I work in-house for an insurance company. I work 50 hours a week and make a good living (300% of the average wage for my area). School paid for itself years ago.

48

[quote]chrisr wrote:
I am thinking about law school. I want to go to school in the mountain west so University of Denver, CU-Boulder and Wyoming are my top choices thus far.

If there is any advice current lawyers, or anyone knowledgable on the subject, can give me for admission to law school, it would be much appreciated.

Some info on myself:

I am currently a senior political science major at a top-30 liberal arts college. I am taking the lsat’s december 2nd. I am in a prepcourse looking to score in the mid-160s hopefully (the highest ive scored in a practice exam is 164.)My GPA is mediocre (3.2) but all of my lower grades were when I was an underclassmen.

Thanks alot.

[/quote]

As far as professional and graduate programs go, scores and gpa’s are just weed-out factors. They can keep you from getting into a school, but they will rarely ever get you in. So take a look at the median gpa and entrance exam scores and do what you can to keep yours comparable to the median. Other than that, don’t put any more energy into those factors. The following is what will actually ‘get you in’.

Remember that law schools, medical schools, and graduate schools often get 10 times the number of qualified applicants that they can accept. In other words, after they apply weed-out factors like gpa and test scores, they still have a group of applicants 10 times too large to compose their new class. So what do they look at now? Maybe restrict the gpa and test scores some more?

Not a chance… because admissions committees know that these are just numbers and are very poor at predicting the success of a student. What they want is to know something personal about the student… something that makes that student stand out.

This is where letters of recommendation and personal statements come into play. These are the most important factors by far in determining your admission to any given school. If your name can stand out in the committee members’ minds in a positive light after they’ve gone through 1000 other applications, then you’ve done something right.

In order to do this, you must get personal with your application. On your statement of purpose, open yourself up and tell them about you - don’t make it just another college essay. Don’t put yourself down, but be honest and straightforward.

For good letters of recommendation, you need good personal relationships with your undergraduate faculty. If the best you have is that you’re one of the top students in that professor’s particular class, then that’s only going to make for a mediocre recommendation letter. Get to know the professors and ask them questions.

Involve yourself in projects and research studies outside of class and get guidance from the professors. This is real meat that a professor can write about when giving you a recommendation and this is the kind of material that will help an admissions committee put your application in the right pile.

49

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
This is tangentially related but I’ll post the question here because it may, potentially, help our young barrister-to-be make a decision.

For the lawyers here, if you had to do it over again, would you have gone to law school?
…[/quote]

I’d say yes, with the caveat that I don’t think I would take the precise same career path if I had it to do over again.

Had I gone into the government at the SEC or the FDA or some other regulatory agency that is highly relevant to business, I could have developed very valuable expertise while avoiding the pain that went with the crash and the lay offs that occurred in 2002 – I never got fired, but nothing gives you confidence like thinking you could get fired for making a typo because the partners are just looking for reasons to let people go.

From a good position in a government regulatory agency you can always go to a big firm if that suits your fancy – or go directly in house – or to a little boutique regulatory practice at a lifestyle firm.

Always good to have options. You won’t make as much money as someone who clawed his way to a position as partner in a large M&A practice or something, but as has been said above, the marginal value of that next dollar over a comfortable baseline isn’t too high.

That said, I’m in a good position now, and am just biding my time waiting for the right in-house offer to come rolling in to make a move – most companies want just a touch more experience than I have at the moment, but prospects are good, as long as the economy doesn’t collapse (knock on wood given the housing situation).

50

[quote]Mr. Shoop wrote:

As far as professional and graduate programs go, scores and gpa’s are just weed-out factors. They can keep you from getting into a school, but they will rarely ever get you in. So take a look at the median gpa and entrance exam scores and do what you can to keep yours comparable to the median. Other than that, don’t put any more energy into those factors. The following is what will actually ‘get you in’.

Remember that law schools, medical schools, and graduate schools often get 10 times the number of qualified applicants that they can accept. In other words, after they apply weed-out factors like gpa and test scores, they still have a group of applicants 10 times too large to compose their new class. So what do they look at now? Maybe restrict the gpa and test scores some more?

Not a chance… because admissions committees know that these are just numbers and are very poor at predicting the success of a student. What they want is to know something personal about the student… something that makes that student stand out.

This is where letters of recommendation and personal statements come into play. These are the most important factors by far in determining your admission to any given school. If your name can stand out in the committee members’ minds in a positive light after they’ve gone through 1000 other applications, then you’ve done something right.

In order to do this, you must get personal with your application. On your statement of purpose, open yourself up and tell them about you - don’t make it just another college essay. Don’t put yourself down, but be honest and straightforward.

For good letters of recommendation, you need good personal relationships with your undergraduate faculty. If the best you have is that you’re one of the top students in that professor’s particular class, then that’s only going to make for a mediocre recommendation letter. Get to know the professors and ask them questions.

Involve yourself in projects and research studies outside of class and get guidance from the professors. This is real meat that a professor can write about when giving you a recommendation and this is the kind of material that will help an admissions committee put your application in the right pile. [/quote]

This is good advice if your “application index” (the weighted average of your GPA and LSAT that schools use – slightly different weights among different schools) is relatively close to the median in an application pool – your application will be put in the “consider again” pile and they will be looking for other ways to weed folks out.

However, if your application index is a standard deviation (or more) above the median, you will get in (unless the school doesn’t think you’re serious and tries to game the system by turning you down – see above). If your application index is a standard deviation or more below, you will just get rejected (unless you have affirmative action points, in which case you may still have a chance, depending on how far below the median you fall and how the application pool looks that year in your affirmative action category).

Also, if you max out the LSAT, definitely look to schools that have made big efforts to improve their US News rankings over the past few years – George Mason in VA and Washington University in MO come to mind – as a high LSAT is very valuable to them – fewer applicants have high LSATs than have high GPAs.

51

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
This is tangentially related but I’ll post the question here because it may, potentially, help our young barrister-to-be make a decision.

For the lawyers here, if you had to do it over again, would you have gone to law school?
[/quote]

Ooooh. That’s tough. I am in a “non-traditional” legal career right now because while I work in the legal department and go legal work, it is not TECHNICALLY practicing law on behalf of my company… which is fine because I get a lot more involved in business decisions than traditional attorneys.

I have a hard time saying I would not do it again because I like to think with a “no regrets” mindset where my decisions have made me who I am. There is a distinct part of me that wishes I did not go direct from college and also wishes I did a MBA…

52

I’m still in law school but have no regrets. I’ve really enjoyed it so far. I don’t know how I’ll feel about be a slave to a big New York firm, but I can leave and move onto something else if I don’t like it. And I really like the people and culture at the firm I’m probably choosing which I think is really important.