[quote]pushharder wrote:
You heard me right, Gotitdone, da Beatles meanz nuthin to me.
I will grant you that they were significant, historically speaking.[/quote]
You don’t need to grant me anything bro. History and general opinion reign supreme when it comes down to popular culture. You’re on the wrong side of this little fray my Lynyrd Skynyrd tooting friend.
I don’t think I have anything else to say to you. I don’t really like the whole celebrity thing myself but it just feels weird when I start reaching some common ground with you.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]JaseHxC wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]JaseHxC wrote:
Institutions, both religious and marital are the downfall of society. It’s 2012 people, anyone who has a need for belief in a higher power or the need to be legally attached to someone in order to be happy are fools.[/quote]
Government is, at heart, a religious institution.[/quote]
And I also strongly believe that society does not require government for it to function properly and create sustainable life for the inhabitants of this planet. I only mentioned religious/marital as they were the most pertinent to this story, but any structured institution is an unnecessary evil for continued survival.[/quote]
So dieing is evil and survival is good? That sounds like how you are defining good and evil. Do you mean on an individual or species level?
Either way, that’s a horrible way to define them. If on the societal level, you can then justify horrible programs and ideologies. If on the individual, birth is evil, because it cause an individual death.
What I’m really getting at and finding funny, is that good and evil are religious institutions. You are defining a word without religious institutions by religious institutions.[/quote]
No.
Good and evil may be used words heavily used by the religious community, but they have meaning in the secular wold as well.
For those of us who believe in secular morality, things that are considered “good” or “evil/bad” are decided through the interaction of minds. You, I and the rest of society decide what should be given these labels. You don’t need a belief in a spirit world to do so.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]JaseHxC wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]JaseHxC wrote:
Institutions, both religious and marital are the downfall of society. It’s 2012 people, anyone who has a need for belief in a higher power or the need to be legally attached to someone in order to be happy are fools.[/quote]
Government is, at heart, a religious institution.[/quote]
And I also strongly believe that society does not require government for it to function properly and create sustainable life for the inhabitants of this planet. I only mentioned religious/marital as they were the most pertinent to this story, but any structured institution is an unnecessary evil for continued survival.[/quote]
So dieing is evil and survival is good? That sounds like how you are defining good and evil. Do you mean on an individual or species level?
Either way, that’s a horrible way to define them. If on the societal level, you can then justify horrible programs and ideologies. If on the individual, birth is evil, because it cause an individual death.
What I’m really getting at and finding funny, is that good and evil are religious institutions. You are defining a word without religious institutions by religious institutions.[/quote]
No.
Good and evil may be used words heavily used by the religious community, but they have meaning in the secular wold as well.
For those of us who believe in secular morality, things that are considered “good” or “evil/bad” are decided through the interaction of minds. You, I and the rest of society decide what should be given these labels. You don’t need a belief in a spirit world to do so.
[/quote]
Okay, if that is your definition, I simply disprove the argument, that the world is better off without religion, by disagreeing on what good is.
By this definition, good is nothing but what you call a pattern of firing neurons in your brain.
I myself say that it is a fact that rape is evil. It is not something that can be changed or decided by vote or popular opinion. It is wrong regardless of how many people think it isn’t.
If, evil is opinion, then how can you fault someone, and make a law based on, anyone’s specific morality? All that it takes, in your world, is to get 51% of the people to make an evil okay.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]JaseHxC wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]JaseHxC wrote:
Institutions, both religious and marital are the downfall of society. It’s 2012 people, anyone who has a need for belief in a higher power or the need to be legally attached to someone in order to be happy are fools.[/quote]
Government is, at heart, a religious institution.[/quote]
And I also strongly believe that society does not require government for it to function properly and create sustainable life for the inhabitants of this planet. I only mentioned religious/marital as they were the most pertinent to this story, but any structured institution is an unnecessary evil for continued survival.[/quote]
So dieing is evil and survival is good? That sounds like how you are defining good and evil. Do you mean on an individual or species level?
Either way, that’s a horrible way to define them. If on the societal level, you can then justify horrible programs and ideologies. If on the individual, birth is evil, because it cause an individual death.
What I’m really getting at and finding funny, is that good and evil are religious institutions. You are defining a word without religious institutions by religious institutions.[/quote]
No.
Good and evil may be used words heavily used by the religious community, but they have meaning in the secular wold as well.
For those of us who believe in secular morality, things that are considered “good” or “evil/bad” are decided through the interaction of minds. You, I and the rest of society decide what should be given these labels. You don’t need a belief in a spirit world to do so.
[/quote]
Okay, if that is your definition, I simply disprove the argument, that the world is better off without religion, by disagreeing on what good is.
By this definition, good is nothing but what you call a pattern of firing neurons in your brain.
I myself say that it is a fact that rape is evil. It is not something that can be changed or decided by vote or popular opinion. It is wrong regardless of how many people think it isn’t.
If, evil is opinion, then how can you fault someone, and make a law based on, anyone’s specific morality? All that it takes, in your world, is to get 51% of the people to make an evil okay.[/quote]
How did you come to the conclusion rape is evil? Not say it isn’t, but how?
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]JaseHxC wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]JaseHxC wrote:
Institutions, both religious and marital are the downfall of society. It’s 2012 people, anyone who has a need for belief in a higher power or the need to be legally attached to someone in order to be happy are fools.[/quote]
Government is, at heart, a religious institution.[/quote]
And I also strongly believe that society does not require government for it to function properly and create sustainable life for the inhabitants of this planet. I only mentioned religious/marital as they were the most pertinent to this story, but any structured institution is an unnecessary evil for continued survival.[/quote]
So dieing is evil and survival is good? That sounds like how you are defining good and evil. Do you mean on an individual or species level?
Either way, that’s a horrible way to define them. If on the societal level, you can then justify horrible programs and ideologies. If on the individual, birth is evil, because it cause an individual death.
What I’m really getting at and finding funny, is that good and evil are religious institutions. You are defining a word without religious institutions by religious institutions.[/quote]
No.
Good and evil may be used words heavily used by the religious community, but they have meaning in the secular wold as well.
For those of us who believe in secular morality, things that are considered “good” or “evil/bad” are decided through the interaction of minds. You, I and the rest of society decide what should be given these labels. You don’t need a belief in a spirit world to do so.
[/quote]
Okay, if that is your definition, I simply disprove the argument, that the world is better off without religion, by disagreeing on what good is.
By this definition, good is nothing but what you call a pattern of firing neurons in your brain.
I myself say that it is a fact that rape is evil. It is not something that can be changed or decided by vote or popular opinion. It is wrong regardless of how many people think it isn’t.
If, evil is opinion, then how can you fault someone, and make a law based on, anyone’s specific morality? All that it takes, in your world, is to get 51% of the people to make an evil okay.[/quote]
How did you come to the conclusion rape is evil? Not say it isn’t, but how?[/quote]
I’ve gone through stages.
Just accepting the conclusion.
Attacking it with logic.
Asking myself about revelation.
Mainly I cannot bring myself in any way to acknowledge any possibility that it is not. Not that that is a real answer to your question.
Do you acknowledge that rape being bad or good is a matter of opinion? I cannot, so I conclude that it is evil.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]JaseHxC wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]JaseHxC wrote:
Institutions, both religious and marital are the downfall of society. It’s 2012 people, anyone who has a need for belief in a higher power or the need to be legally attached to someone in order to be happy are fools.[/quote]
Government is, at heart, a religious institution.[/quote]
And I also strongly believe that society does not require government for it to function properly and create sustainable life for the inhabitants of this planet. I only mentioned religious/marital as they were the most pertinent to this story, but any structured institution is an unnecessary evil for continued survival.[/quote]
So dieing is evil and survival is good? That sounds like how you are defining good and evil. Do you mean on an individual or species level?
Either way, that’s a horrible way to define them. If on the societal level, you can then justify horrible programs and ideologies. If on the individual, birth is evil, because it cause an individual death.
What I’m really getting at and finding funny, is that good and evil are religious institutions. You are defining a word without religious institutions by religious institutions.[/quote]
No.
Good and evil may be used words heavily used by the religious community, but they have meaning in the secular wold as well.
For those of us who believe in secular morality, things that are considered “good” or “evil/bad” are decided through the interaction of minds. You, I and the rest of society decide what should be given these labels. You don’t need a belief in a spirit world to do so.
[/quote]
Okay, if that is your definition, I simply disprove the argument, that the world is better off without religion, by disagreeing on what good is.
By this definition, good is nothing but what you call a pattern of firing neurons in your brain.
I myself say that it is a fact that rape is evil. It is not something that can be changed or decided by vote or popular opinion. It is wrong regardless of how many people think it isn’t.
If, evil is opinion, then how can you fault someone, and make a law based on, anyone’s specific morality? All that it takes, in your world, is to get 51% of the people to make an evil okay.[/quote]
How did you come to the conclusion rape is evil? Not say it isn’t, but how?[/quote]
I’ve gone through stages.
Just accepting the conclusion.
Attacking it with logic.
Asking myself about revelation.
Mainly I cannot bring myself in any way to acknowledge any possibility that it is not. Not that that is a real answer to your question.
Do you acknowledge that rape being bad or good is a matter of opinion? I cannot, so I conclude that it is evil.[/quote]
Hate to break it to you, but if you used your human faculties to decide rape was wrong (as opposed to supernatural guidance), then you subscribe to secular morality.
I have hard time really seeing your hypothetical as a realistic danger. If most of the world used their logic, reasoning or moral intuition as their source for what’s good and evil, there would be no chance of things like rape becoming socially acceptable .
Wow, my spelling and grammar is just awful this morning.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]JaseHxC wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]JaseHxC wrote:
Institutions, both religious and marital are the downfall of society. It’s 2012 people, anyone who has a need for belief in a higher power or the need to be legally attached to someone in order to be happy are fools.[/quote]
Government is, at heart, a religious institution.[/quote]
And I also strongly believe that society does not require government for it to function properly and create sustainable life for the inhabitants of this planet. I only mentioned religious/marital as they were the most pertinent to this story, but any structured institution is an unnecessary evil for continued survival.[/quote]
So dieing is evil and survival is good? That sounds like how you are defining good and evil. Do you mean on an individual or species level?
Either way, that’s a horrible way to define them. If on the societal level, you can then justify horrible programs and ideologies. If on the individual, birth is evil, because it cause an individual death.
What I’m really getting at and finding funny, is that good and evil are religious institutions. You are defining a word without religious institutions by religious institutions.[/quote]
No.
Good and evil may be used words heavily used by the religious community, but they have meaning in the secular wold as well.
For those of us who believe in secular morality, things that are considered “good” or “evil/bad” are decided through the interaction of minds. You, I and the rest of society decide what should be given these labels. You don’t need a belief in a spirit world to do so.
[/quote]
Okay, if that is your definition, I simply disprove the argument, that the world is better off without religion, by disagreeing on what good is.
By this definition, good is nothing but what you call a pattern of firing neurons in your brain.
I myself say that it is a fact that rape is evil. It is not something that can be changed or decided by vote or popular opinion. It is wrong regardless of how many people think it isn’t.
If, evil is opinion, then how can you fault someone, and make a law based on, anyone’s specific morality? All that it takes, in your world, is to get 51% of the people to make an evil okay.[/quote]
How did you come to the conclusion rape is evil? Not say it isn’t, but how?[/quote]
I’ve gone through stages.
Just accepting the conclusion.
Attacking it with logic.
Asking myself about revelation.
Mainly I cannot bring myself in any way to acknowledge any possibility that it is not. Not that that is a real answer to your question.
Do you acknowledge that rape being bad or good is a matter of opinion? I cannot, so I conclude that it is evil.[/quote]
Hate to break it to you, but if you used your human faculties to decide rape was wrong (as opposed to supernatural guidance), then you subscribe to secular morality.
I have hard time really seeing your hypothetical as a realistic danger. If most of the world used their logic, reasoning or moral intuition as their source for what’s good and evil, there would be no chance of things like rape becoming socially acceptable .[/quote]
No, reasoning is not where my knowledge comes from. It is something that I claim and claim to not be able to explain. I have attempted logic many times and failed. I claim it as a fact. I’m saying that something not belonging to the physical universe is real. That is the supernatural.
Not a realistic danger? It has happened lots of times. Murder has even become socially acceptable (Nazi reference in on online argument). Not to mention things like slavery (and the rape of slaves). Was slavery evil when it was socially acceptable? What about Japanese internment? What about the times it’s become socially acceptable to practice class warfare? And to hate and rob someone because they are wealthy?
Heck, even all the evils attributed to religion (crusades and jihad and whatnot) pass through the review of social acceptability.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]JaseHxC wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]JaseHxC wrote:
Institutions, both religious and marital are the downfall of society. It’s 2012 people, anyone who has a need for belief in a higher power or the need to be legally attached to someone in order to be happy are fools.[/quote]
Government is, at heart, a religious institution.[/quote]
And I also strongly believe that society does not require government for it to function properly and create sustainable life for the inhabitants of this planet. I only mentioned religious/marital as they were the most pertinent to this story, but any structured institution is an unnecessary evil for continued survival.[/quote]
So dieing is evil and survival is good? That sounds like how you are defining good and evil. Do you mean on an individual or species level?
Either way, that’s a horrible way to define them. If on the societal level, you can then justify horrible programs and ideologies. If on the individual, birth is evil, because it cause an individual death.
What I’m really getting at and finding funny, is that good and evil are religious institutions. You are defining a word without religious institutions by religious institutions.[/quote]
No.
Good and evil may be used words heavily used by the religious community, but they have meaning in the secular wold as well.
For those of us who believe in secular morality, things that are considered “good” or “evil/bad” are decided through the interaction of minds. You, I and the rest of society decide what should be given these labels. You don’t need a belief in a spirit world to do so.
[/quote]
Okay, if that is your definition, I simply disprove the argument, that the world is better off without religion, by disagreeing on what good is.
By this definition, good is nothing but what you call a pattern of firing neurons in your brain.
I myself say that it is a fact that rape is evil. It is not something that can be changed or decided by vote or popular opinion. It is wrong regardless of how many people think it isn’t.
If, evil is opinion, then how can you fault someone, and make a law based on, anyone’s specific morality? All that it takes, in your world, is to get 51% of the people to make an evil okay.[/quote]
How did you come to the conclusion rape is evil? Not say it isn’t, but how?[/quote]
I’ve gone through stages.
Just accepting the conclusion.
Attacking it with logic.
Asking myself about revelation.
Mainly I cannot bring myself in any way to acknowledge any possibility that it is not. Not that that is a real answer to your question.
Do you acknowledge that rape being bad or good is a matter of opinion? I cannot, so I conclude that it is evil.[/quote]
Hate to break it to you, but if you used your human faculties to decide rape was wrong (as opposed to supernatural guidance), then you subscribe to secular morality.
I have hard time really seeing your hypothetical as a realistic danger. If most of the world used their logic, reasoning or moral intuition as their source for what’s good and evil, there would be no chance of things like rape becoming socially acceptable .[/quote]
No, reasoning is not where my knowledge comes from. It is something that I claim and claim to not be able to explain. I have attempted logic many times and failed. I claim it as a fact. I’m saying that something not belonging to the physical universe is real. That is the supernatural.
Not a realistic danger? It has happened lots of times. Murder has even become socially acceptable (Nazi reference in on online argument). Not to mention things like slavery (and the rape of slaves). Was slavery evil when it was socially acceptable? What about Japanese internment? What about the times it’s become socially acceptable to practice class warfare? And to hate and rob someone because they are wealthy?
Heck, even all the evils attributed to religion (crusades and jihad and whatnot) pass through the review of social acceptability.[/quote]
I don’t agree with what you have said in regards to the source of knowledge, but that’s a different debate entirely. Even if you can’t explain it, it’s irrational to jump to the conclusion it must be from a supernatural source.
The examples in your second paragraph are not of minds relying on their own logic and reasoning. All the examples you listed were from groups where religion played a large in role society. I remember reading slave traders would often quote a passage in the bible to justify slavery.
Secular morality is about using your own logic, reasoning, moral intuition in combination with your interaction with others.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I don’t agree with what you have said in regards to the source of knowledge, but that’s a different debate entirely. Even if you can’t explain it, it’s irrational to jump to the conclusion it must be from a supernatural source.
The examples in your second paragraph are not of minds relying on their own logic and reasoning. All the examples you listed were from groups where religion played a large in role society. I remember reading slave traders would often quote a passage in the bible to justify slavery.
Secular morality is about using your own logic, reasoning, moral intuition in combination with your interaction with others.
[/quote]
Logic cannot provide a universal morality. I believe in a universal morality.
And this is where your argument really crumbles. In those situations there was societal consensus. By your own reasoning that is what makes right or wrong, not religion.
In fact the religion itself was by societal consensus. So those religious beliefs themselves pass your own test for morality.
And this also omits that much of that has been done outside of religion. But also, that quoting a Bible verse doesn’t mean that the slave trader was motivated by or justified the action to himself by religion. It is much more likely that was the method he used to justify himself to society. The truth is that he was an evil man who wanted to benefit himself through evil means and then search for a method of justification. In which case, he was relying on his internal sense of right and wrong and that is why he did what he did.
Do you really think he read the Bible and got “slavery is okay” out of it, then decided to go do it? Or do you think he first though internally and decided he wanted to get rich on slaves, then read the Bible to seek permission? In the second scenario, your brand of morality is to blame, not mine.
[quote]Christine wrote:
[quote]JaseHxC wrote:
Institutions, both religious and marital are the downfall of society. It’s 2012 people, anyone who has a need for belief in a higher power or the need to be legally attached to someone in order to be happy are fools.[/quote]
Ahmen![/quote]
And ironically it’s both of you live strictly on faith…That is you know absolutely everything? You know why your here? You know why existence is? You must because if you believe that nothing is the basis for everything, nothing sounds dumber to me.
I can again point to the absolute concrete fucking fact that no belief system has killed more people and caused more atrocities in the history of the world than atheism. So if you want to use a small KY church as a microcosm of faithful people then I can apply Stalin and the Bolsheviks as a microcosm of non-believers…Sounds fair to me.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
[quote]JaseHxC wrote:
And I also strongly believe that society does not require government for it to function properly and create sustainable life for the inhabitants of this planet. [/quote]
This idea is dumber than a bag of hair.
[/quote]
Let’s send him to Somalia…Society with no government is in full swing there. Bet that tune would change quick.
[quote]JaseHxC wrote:
This sub forum as a whole is a cess pool. Also, at no point did I claim that your beliefs are wrong and mine are right (oh no, I’m not allowed to use “right” or “wrong”) You’re entitled to voice your opinion, as I am mine.
As far as your take on all these words and ideals being religious institutions. Religion, like many other things, is a man made concept and any man has the right to reject it. In doing so, the words I choose and their context, religious or non, have no bearing on why I choose to use them.
Do I think that this world ever will be in a position to exist without such things again>? Likely not and thus there certainly is very little evidence to back up my theory. But I like to think we’d do ok (at least the open minded among us) and that’s good enough for me.[/quote]
Hey, just don’t say dumb shit you can’t back up and you rise above the mire.