Just Started TRT

History- I use iodized salt. Not huge quantities I guess since I am not a fan of salt as a flavor. I do like seafood and my multi vitamin has 150mcg and I take one of those everyday.

I am supposed to be uping my dose of thyroid med but the doctor has not got me the script yet. All my labs have been done in the morning.

My TSH has dropped a ton actually. When I first tested it was 11 with the same reference range. So it is actually down quite a bit. You think it should be lower. I thought the numbers looked like I was not converting well.

So you think my t levels are varying through the day because of low dosage or other factors?

T levels when on transdermals peak and drop.

TSH levels indicate that your hypothalamus and pituitary are calling for more thyroid hormones. That can be mediated by poor T4–>T3 conversion. You should be taking some T3.

Find the references to T3 in this:
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L-thyroxine replacement
In view of the physiological, pharmacokinetic, and clinical biochemical considerations outlined above, ten tips can be given for clinical practice (2, 5â?? 8):

With regard to the frequency of TSH measurements after a change in the hormone dose or in the clinical circumstances, rechecking at four- to six-week intervals is recommended. For benign diseases of the thyroid gland, the target range for TSH is 1 to 2 mU/L (2, 8).
Blood drawing for fT4 should be done early in the morning before the daily dose of L-thyroxine.
Measuring fT3 is usually unnecessary for the monitoring of replacement therapy but can be useful for the detection of T3 hyperthyroidism in special situations, e.g., thyroid carcinoma.
L-thyroxine should be taken by mouth early in the morning, in the fasting state, 30 to 60 minutes before breakfast, with water. The standard dose is 15 μg/kg body weight (BW). If the patient forgets to take one daily dose, this can safely be neglected and should not be â??made up forâ?? by additional intake the next day (2, 8).
Giving T3 for replacement is unphysiological and less well tolerated and is thus not recommended as a routine measure. The mono-deiodization of T4 normally occurs as needed in the peripheral tissues, so that there is no need to take T3 (liothyronine) as well. In a total of 10 randomized double-blind clinical trials, including six crossover trials and four parallel-group trials (9, e10â?? e17), treatment with a combination of T3 and T4 was found to provide a convincing benefit with respect to well-being, cognitive functioning, or quality of life for some individual patients, but not in the overall group of patients studied, and this remained the case after multiple meta-analyses (e18, 10). There will be some patients who report having a better mental and cognitive state when receiving combination therapy and therefore want it. To this end, preparations are available that contain T3 and T4 in a fixed ratio of 10 or 20 μg of T3 to 100 μg of T4. If the clinical manifestations of hypothyroidism persist under L-thyroxine replacement therapy despite normalized TSH levels, this may be due to genetic variation (e19â?? e21) in the peripheral 5â??-deiodinases (e22â?? e24), which are selenoprotein enzymes that catalyze the conversion of T4 to active T3 as needed (11, e25). Patients with low peripheral 5â??-deiodinase activity may be unable to metabolize T4 to T3 in adequate amounts and may therefore respond better to combined replacement therapy than to T4 alone. There is, however, no routinely available clinical biochemical or genetic test to determine whether this is the case.
There is a widespread misconception that the various thyroid preparations on the market are identical in bioavailability. This is not so (e26), and therefore the preparation currently being taken should not be switched if the patient is tolerating it well. The area under the curve (AUC) of different preparationsâ?? absorption profiles can differ so greatly (e27) that their relative bioavailability varies from 0.8 to 1.25, and this is a clinically relevant variation (e28).
After thyroid hormone replacement is initiated at a low dose, the dose should be raised in individualized fashion. For patients who are elderly, suffer from heart disease, or have longstanding hypothyroidism, the dose should be raised slowly, e.g., in weekly increments of 25 μg, after an initial dose of 25 μg. On the other hand, patients in good general health who undergo thyroid surgery can have the dose rapidly raised to the target postoperative dose (within a maximum of five days after surgery) (1). The need for postoperative thyroid hormone replacement is a function of the residual volume of thyroid tissue (2). Hormone replacement is always necessary when less than 6 mL of thyroid tissue is left. A practical approach would be to start postoperatively at a dose of 1 μg/kgBW and then measure the TSH level again in four to six weeks.
Patients who are dysphagic or are receiving a special enteral diet can be given L-thyroxine as a liquid preparation (e.g., L-thyroxine drops [Henning], where 1 drop contains 5 μg of the hormone).
Note: In this review, we do not discuss the treatment of secondary or tertiary hypothyroidism caused by diseases affecting the hypothalamic-pituitary axis (12). Nevertheless, we take this opportunity to point out that TSH cannot be used as a guide to therapy in such cases, as the TSH concentration may be in the normal range, or low, despite peripheral hypothyroidism. Thus, treatment monitoring must be performed by measurement of fT4.
A potential pitfall: patients with other serious illnesses in addition to primary hypothyroidism can develop NTIS (â??non-thyroidal illness syndromeâ??) and therefore have low values of both fT3 and TSH. In such cases, too, hormone replacement therapy must be monitored by fT4 measurement.

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Wouldn’t the peak and drop be ok because technically that is what the naturally production is like as well. Peak in the morning and lower at night.

I have read that exact same article/paper. I talked with my doctor about it using T3 as well and he doesn’t like it because of the short half life and it will create ups and downs in hormone level. He said that even if you are a poor converter just upping the dose of T4 will help.

Any thoughts on how such a small does of T-gel raised my T levels so far?

Also has anyone heard or tried testosterone undecanoate?

If you are seeking steadier injections levels, just inject more often.

Tell doc that you want to try some T4+T3 to see how you respond. Can’t do any harm and nothing else matters except your own response.

Some people, poor T4–>T3 converters, have almost died from the same thinking of your doc.

T levels to peak in the AM for normal guys, but do not have the extremes of transdermals.

I was just wondering. I was doing some reading on other forums and it seemed like an interesting option for steady levels with out lots of injections.

I will be talking to my doctor tomorrow. Hopefully I will have some good news. Thank you for all of your help.

Update of labs. Lots of things run. Let me know what some of you experience people think. To recap I am on 5gm of androgel ED and 100mcg of thyroxine ED

TSH 1.66 0.30 - 5.00 uIU/mL
T4, FREE 1.2 0.7 - 1.7 ng/dL
T3, FREE 1.8 2.2 - 5.0 pg/mL
LUTEINIZING HORM <0.1 1.5 - 9.3mIu/mL
PSA 0.24 0.00 - 4.00 ng/mL
HGB 14.7 13.0 - 17.0 g/dL
ALBUMIN 4.7 3.5 - 5.0 g/dL
TOTAL BILIRUBIN 1.3 0.1 - 1.2 mg/dL
DIRECT BILIRUBIN 0.2 0.0 - 0.5 mg/dL
INDIRECT BILI 1.1 0.1 - 1.2 mg/dL
ALK PHOSPHATASE 40 25 - 125 IU/L
PROTEIN, TOTAL 7.4 6.0 - 8.0 g/dL
ALT(SGPT) 84 5 - 40 IU/L
AST(SGOT) 67 10 - 40 IU/L
SODIUM 141 134 - 143 mEq/L
POTASSIUM 4.1 3.4 - 5.1 mEq/L
CHLORIDE 101 99 - 110 mEq/L
CO2 30 22 - 32 mEq/L
BUN 34 5 - 24 mg/dL
CREATININE 1.65 0.70 - 1.20 mg/dL
GFR CALC 52
GFR Normal: >60 mL/min/1.73 m2
CALCIUM 9.2 8.5 - 10.2 mg/dL
ANION GAP 10.0 3.0 - 15.0
GLUCOSE 39 70 - 99 mg/dL (This is not a fasting. This was at 130 and I had eaten 160g of carb at about 1230. The carbs were from an apple and oatmeal) I had no idea he had ordered this.
ESTRADIOL 22 0-52 pg/ml

The testosterone tests take longer so I am still waiting for those to be updated. Any thoughts so far?

Estrogen looks great.

TSH is slightly high, but your free T3 is abysmal. Ideal is 3.2-3.8 I think.

have you read 18 Summaries of Things We Have Learned - Stop The Thyroid Madness T4 only meds don’t work for a large number of people.

your glucose result is scary. no idea what it means, but if it were me, I would be researching the heck out of it. I would be asking for a glucose challenge test, insulin tests, etc. etc. etc.

[quote]PureChance wrote:
Estrogen looks great.

TSH is slightly high, but your free T3 is abysmal. Ideal is 3.2-3.8 I think.

have you read 18 Summaries of Things We Have Learned - Stop The Thyroid Madness T4 only meds don’t work for a large number of people.

your glucose result is scary. no idea what it means, but if it were me, I would be researching the heck out of it. I would be asking for a glucose challenge test, insulin tests, etc. etc. etc.[/quote]

I was happy with the estrogen. I think the results for t levels will be posted on Monday.

I have read it. I was really hoping the higher dose of thyroxine would help considering what the doctor has said but I see I am unresponsive to it.

I have been researching it. The thing was I felt no hypoglycemic symptoms at the time. And I eat the same meal like that everyday at the same time so technically I should be having those levels everyday and I do not feel any symptoms so I am confused.

Gel is a joke. Eventually the high estrogen conversion will poison you and cause diabetes. Get on shots…125mg e 5 days and an anti estrogen small dose arimidex say .25 mg every 4-5 days.

The rest of the lab results

Testosterone, Total, S 448 240 - 950 ng/dL
Testosterone, Free, S 14.8 9 - 30 ng/dL
SEX HORMONE BIND 24 10 - 57 nmol/L

So a very slight increase in total test. An increase in free test from January. SBH no increase. And a slight increase in Estradiol. What do you think the best course of action would be taking taking into account all the current tests?

besides reading about why T4 only meds don’t work for a lot of people per the STTM site and given your absymal Free T3 levels how you really really need to get that treated before you try and balance your testosterone?

I would also recommend testing your 8am Cortisol. If you have thyroid and testosterone issues, there is an increased chance that you will have cortisol issues as well. May not, but you should at least confirm your 8am levels.

CORTISOL 12.4 ug/dL
Adult Cortisol Levels
8 A.M. Specimen: 7-25 ug/dL

and my fasting glucose test from this morning

GLUCOSE 89 70 - 99 mg/dL

So my cortisol levels are normal. So I should be looking at getting my thyroid fixed before I pursue any higher does of androgel to get my T levels higher?

Also I was happy to see normal levels on this glucose test.

if the dr. doesn’t do what you want him to do. buy the stuff yourself and take what you want. simple. theres nothing you can’t buy yourself online. i had to get a prescripion, but the dr. told me he needed to see me on a regular basis in order to keep writing the script. i disagreed with him. so i ordered it myself and now i don’t have to waste my time, take time out of my schedule for a dr’s appt.

I am not too worried about getting what I want. I am just not sure what I want since I am not sure what the best course of action is. I know everything is interconnected and I am wondering what is the problem that should be fixed first. Like it the thyroid issue is creating problems with my testosterone or vice versa.

when was your blood draw for the cortisol test?

an 8am blood draw IDEAL levels for Cortisol are 15-20. if at 8am, 12.4 is not terrible, but should be monitored and if it drops and you have related symptoms, then treatment may be warranted.

yes, you need to fix your thyroid first (which when fixed will put additional demands on your cortisol/adrenals) before you work on your testosterone levels.

Yes it was an 8am blood draw. That is what I figured that the thyroid should be fixed. The problem is it is not responding well. From what I have read about T3 is that it has a short half life so it creates peaks and valleys which can create its own problems and symptoms. Should I just up the T4 dose?

if your body is having problems converting T4 to T3 then it won’t matter how much T4 you take. Taking too much T4 leads to problems with high Reverse T3.

Yes. If you start on T3, you have to dose more frequently because of the short half life.

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
That is what I figured that the thyroid should be fixed. The problem is it is not responding well. From what I have read about T3 is that it has a short half life so it creates peaks and valleys which can create its own problems and symptoms. Should I just up the T4 dose?[/quote]

NO!!!

You should take Pure Chance’s advice and go read why T4 only meds are shitty for most people…you can find that easily on the STTM site, which he kindly pointed you to…if you bothered to do some damn legwork on your own instead of expecting to be spoonfed everything you would not be asking stupid questions…

Your T3 is in the shitter and T3 is the active hormone that makes your thyroid work…you are on T4 meds and the shit is not working, so why would you want to continue on that treatment path?

The laziness of some people on this forum lately is astounding…

I read the site. I know what T3 is.

Because I have read that eventually that if enough T4 is in your system you will convert enough to active T3. Its le chatelier’s principle.

And since I have also actually done research I know that there will be a roller coaster of hormones for some people because of the short half life.

I am just looking for a better explanation. I am asking for opinions it does not mean I have not done research. I have been researching since Oct. and that is one of the first sites I found. Don’t assume things especially when you cannot see who you are talking to. Body language accounts for over 75% of communication. Not really saying body language would of changed your assumption. No need to get worked up, just wanted some friendly opinions/thoughts.

unfortunately for some people (or most depending on who you ask), simply taking more T4 does not lead to any improvements. There is a link to a youtube video on the STTM site. The video itself is bizarre, but the information it provides is pretty spot on (and kind of shows the typical patient doctor conversation).

If your body has excess T4 and can not convert it to T3 because of whatever reason (lack of ferritin, lack of cortisol, lack of D1?, D2?, D3? enyzmes or something like that) then your body will convert the T4 to Reverse T3. Reverse T3 simply block your T3 receptors stopping whatever Free T3 you have from actually working.

Reverse T3 is then converted/removed by the body but it uses the same enzyme that convert T4 to T3, and getting ride of Reverse T3 takes priority, so the more RT3 you have, the less T4 to T3 conversion takes place, which leaves excess T4 which is then dumped off into more RT3. You have to break to cycle by taking T3 only for a period of time to give your body a chance to get out of that cycle (plus balance all of your other systems).

you might want to check out thyroid-rt3.com
they have some great information there.

I personally had high RT3 when I was taking Armour,and had to go on T3 only for time (still on it - looking to wean off in the near future). Taking Hydrocortisone and T3 only I was able to get my RT3 levels from 40 down to 12.

best of luck with whatever direction you decide to go. I know it is a hard road to travel.