Jordanian Pilot

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Musashi92 wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote] Musashi92 wrote:

You keep saying the islamists would of tried to kill him,

[/quote]

They did try to kill him.

Precisely this: why would they care we removed him from office when they were trying to do the same thing?

If they wanted democracy and a democratic leader why would they support a profoundly anti-democratic group that tried to kill their democratic leader? I can answer that for you. They wouldn’t. The secular Iranians would never support Islamic fundamentalists and they’re friendly to the West. Many of them liked the Shah. As I said, try to use logic. Iran, in the Middle of Asia; nothing to do with America. Why would they suddenly, 60+ years later become Islamic fundamentalists? To get back at some country that was involved in one of many coups over 60 years ago? Seriously, think about what you’re saying. It doesn’t make any sense.

Really? Can you show me any evidence of well known secular, democratic reform journalists, writers, politicians, political activists who were “driven into the arms” of the Islamists? Which ones? All the ones I know are pro-Western. I have an Iranian friend who fled the revolution. He’s pro-Western and loved the Shah. The secular, democratic reformists were not “driven into the arms” of the Islamists. Think about how insane that is. There were half a dozen coups and a dozen coup attempts after the war as Islamist, Communists, monarchists and nationalists fought for control. You’re saying that a quarter of a century later, secular democratic reformists decided to become Islamic fundamentalists to get back at America? Seriously? Why wouldn’t they want to get back at the Russians who did far, far more harm and created chaos in the country? What sort of logic is it anyway? A secular, democratic reformist becomes an Islamic fundamentalist to get back at America for their involvement in a coup 60+ years ago?

So my question is which ones? Where are these secular, democratic reformists who were pushed “into the arms” of the Islamists? Can you name any? Any journalists? Political activists? Politicians who switched from secular reformists to Islamists?[/quote]

Your “friend” loved the shah? He loved a dictator who used acid, rape and electrocution on protesters? He loved his country having another country install an unelected unaccountable gangster who whored the national resources to the US after the people of Iran supported oil nationalisation?

Is your friend real? Really?[/quote]

Clearly you’re not aware that there were a lot of supporters of the shah and most the Iranians who fled the revolution were supporters of the shah.[/quote]

There were not a lot of supporters of the shah, there were a tiny conclave of Shah supporters who fled because they were considered traitorous whoring national traitors, the same way the french who supported Nazi occupation were.
Would you ever support a puppet dictator who was installed in your country by a foreign power? I think you would have too much self respect to do that, as most people would.

In fact the shah was so unpopular the U.S administration decided it would be better to let him sink than try and continue to prop him up. I am currently reading a book on the siege of the grand Mosque and it has a lot of content on Iran and the internal dialogue about the situation. They pretty much say the same thing, that the shah had so little support continuing to support him had no upside.

They also knew further support of such a brutal torturer and dictator would keep whipping up hatred for the U.S and would make continuously fertile breeding grounds for islamism, which like all radical movements, gains support in times of hardship and eternal domination.

22

Which book?

23

Hey Musashi–just chiming in to say the few posts that you’ve put up in this forum are quite well reasoned and insightful. They’re great contributions. I don’t agree with everything you’ve said so far (but that would go for almost anybody of course), but I really like the fact you are clearly putting thought into your rationale for positions.

24

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Hey Musashi–just chiming in to say the few posts that you’ve put up in this forum are quite well reasoned and insightful. They’re great contributions. I don’t agree with everything you’ve said so far (but that would go for almost anybody of course), but I really like the fact you are clearly putting thought into your rationale for positions.[/quote]

Thanks. I try and keep it civil and leave my emotions out of things online and in discussion in general, that way I don’t back myself into a corner where I have to argue a point even when I no longer support it.

25

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Which book?[/quote]

x 2

26

SM would you mind stating your academic/professional qualifications?

always liked your well thought out posts and remember you saying you work for a university? are you a professor?

cheers

27

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Which book?[/quote]

The siege of Mecca by Yaroslav Trofimov. I have bought 8 books on the topic of islam, islamism, the war in Aghanistan. I like to do block reading where I hammer a subject from multiple angles and viewpoints.

My next book will be the looming tower. I also have a bunch of others but these two are books I was recommended to get to the root of Wahhabism and its global spread, which started with the siege of the grand mosque.

In order to remove the rebels and the alleged Mahdi who would with the returned jesus christ wipe the christians and infidels from the planet and suck them into the ground per islamic prophecy, there would need to be a fatwa and an order from the Ulema to use weapons inside the grand mosque.
The house of Saud needed a fatwa and the ulema agreed, but said the Saudi’s would have to spread and fund the wahhabi sect that the very rebels themselves adhered to.
This lead to billions in oil money and insanely huge ammounts of Madrases and islamic learning centres preaching 7th century Wahhabist Islam, all over the globe, to hundreds of millions of muslims.

Basically all current Sunni terrorist groups and radical movements have some connection to a saudi sponsored madrases, Islamic societies, terror network.

I recommend giving it a read if you have not already.

28

[quote]TheCB wrote:
SM would you mind stating your academic/professional qualifications?

[/quote]

Just an arts degree. I’ve just had an interest in history for a long time and I’m a bibliophile. Unfortunately I don’t have as much time nowadays and I’m starting to forget a lot of the stuff that I studied when I was younger.

[quote]

always liked your well thought out posts and remember you saying you work for a university? are you a professor?

cheers[/quote]

Thanks, and no I’m not a professor. I help manage the off campus / online courses for one of the universities here. It’s a pretty good job as I work from home, set my own hours and get a fair bit of time off. I got the job through my mother who worked at the uni for years in different capacities. She was an academic. I’m more of an autodidact.

29

[quote]Musashi92 wrote:
You keep saying the islamists would of tried to kill him, I keep saying of course, but what does that have to do with my point?
My point was the reason lots of Iranian civilians started to support the islamists was because they hated the US and the west removing their democratic leader and installing a puppet.[/quote]

No. They supported the Islamists because they supported the Islamists.

If they didn’t like the fundamentalists, then they wouldn’t have supported their rule when they came into power. It’s as simple as that.

30

[quote]Musashi92 wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Which book?[/quote]

The siege of Mecca by Yaroslav Trofimov. I have bought 8 books on the topic of islam, islamism, the war in Aghanistan. I like to do block reading where I hammer a subject from multiple angles and viewpoints.

My next book will be the looming tower. I also have a bunch of others but these two are books I was recommended to get to the root of Wahhabism and its global spread, which started with the siege of the grand mosque.

In order to remove the rebels and the alleged Mahdi who would with the returned jesus christ wipe the christians and infidels from the planet and suck them into the ground per islamic prophecy, there would need to be a fatwa and an order from the Ulema to use weapons inside the grand mosque.
The house of Saud needed a fatwa and the ulema agreed, but said the Saudi’s would have to spread and fund the wahhabi sect that the very rebels themselves adhered to.
This lead to billions in oil money and insanely huge ammounts of Madrases and islamic learning centres preaching 7th century Wahhabist Islam, all over the globe, to hundreds of millions of muslims.

Basically all current Sunni terrorist groups and radical movements have some connection to a saudi sponsored madrases, Islamic societies, terror network.

I recommend giving it a read if you have not already.[/quote]

Thanks I’ll check it out. I’ve read a bit about the Grand Mosque siege too. Of course bin Laden’s family won a contract to do multimillion dollar restorations and there’s signs they may have had some involvement. I read one of the early biographies of OBL back in 1999 and I was expecting something like 9/11 and wasn’t too surprised when it happened. KSM and Ramzi Yousef had previously tried something similar - the Bojinka Plot.

31

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]TheCB wrote:
SM would you mind stating your academic/professional qualifications?

[/quote]

Just an arts degree. I’ve just had an interest in history for a long time and I’m a bibliophile. Unfortunately I don’t have as much time nowadays and I’m starting to forget a lot of the stuff that I studied when I was younger.

[quote]

always liked your well thought out posts and remember you saying you work for a university? are you a professor?

cheers[/quote]

Thanks, and no I’m not a professor. I help manage the off campus / online courses for one of the universities here. It’s a pretty good job as I work from home, set my own hours and get a fair bit of time off. I got the job through my mother who worked at the uni for years in different capacities. She was an academic. I’m more of an autodidact.[/quote]

Do you have any recommendations for books on the U.S constitution and its leading figures and proponents?
This is my next subject, one I want to do some block reading on in a similar manner to this one.

32

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]Musashi92 wrote:
You keep saying the islamists would of tried to kill him, I keep saying of course, but what does that have to do with my point?
My point was the reason lots of Iranian civilians started to support the islamists was because they hated the US and the west removing their democratic leader and installing a puppet.[/quote]

No. They supported the Islamists because they supported the Islamists.

If they didn’t like the fundamentalists, then they wouldn’t have supported their rule when they came into power. It’s as simple as that.[/quote]

I am sorry but I disagree, this is an ahistorical look at social phenomena. Look at Germany, people who were not radical ended up voting for the National Socialists and others ended up supporting Bolsheviks, others smaller far right and left groups.
Most of these people were not born or raised as Nazi’s or Stalinists, to say they are because they are is not a good nor realistic way to observe such things.

33

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]Musashi92 wrote:
You keep saying the islamists would of tried to kill him, I keep saying of course, but what does that have to do with my point?
My point was the reason lots of Iranian civilians started to support the islamists was because they hated the US and the west removing their democratic leader and installing a puppet.[/quote]

No. They supported the Islamists because they supported the Islamists.

If they didn’t like the fundamentalists, then they wouldn’t have supported their rule when they came into power. It’s as simple as that.[/quote]

I agree. Many were duped into supporting Khomeini because they didn’t realise how hard line the regime would be but it had nothing to do with anger at the US. You don’t support a political party to get revenge on a foreign country that orchestrated a coup 30 years previously.

34

[quote]Musashi92 wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]TheCB wrote:
SM would you mind stating your academic/professional qualifications?

[/quote]

Just an arts degree. I’ve just had an interest in history for a long time and I’m a bibliophile. Unfortunately I don’t have as much time nowadays and I’m starting to forget a lot of the stuff that I studied when I was younger.

There’s some other posters here who’ve read more than I have on the subject. I’m not American. But depending on specifically what you’re interested in I can recommend:

The Heritage Guide to the Constitution - this is a technical work on the constitution itself from an originalist stand point.

Federalist Papers - you can find this on the net. Madison, Hamilton and Jay arguing in favour of the constitution.

The Anti-Federalist - also online. A collection of essays and articles opposing the constitution.

The above two give a good account of the arguments at the time for and against. The Federalist Papers also give a good indication of the original intent of the drafters.

Also, Madison’s notes from the convention.

Jefferson’s autobiography, letters and collected writings:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/094045016X/ref=mp_s_a_1_35?qid=1423245555&sr=8-35&pi=AC_SX110_SY165_QL70&keywords=james+madison&dpPl=1&dpID=41YJDDYBSPL&ref=plSrch

35

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Musashi92 wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Which book?[/quote]

The siege of Mecca by Yaroslav Trofimov. I have bought 8 books on the topic of islam, islamism, the war in Aghanistan. I like to do block reading where I hammer a subject from multiple angles and viewpoints.

My next book will be the looming tower. I also have a bunch of others but these two are books I was recommended to get to the root of Wahhabism and its global spread, which started with the siege of the grand mosque.

In order to remove the rebels and the alleged Mahdi who would with the returned jesus christ wipe the christians and infidels from the planet and suck them into the ground per islamic prophecy, there would need to be a fatwa and an order from the Ulema to use weapons inside the grand mosque.
The house of Saud needed a fatwa and the ulema agreed, but said the Saudi’s would have to spread and fund the wahhabi sect that the very rebels themselves adhered to.
This lead to billions in oil money and insanely huge ammounts of Madrases and islamic learning centres preaching 7th century Wahhabist Islam, all over the globe, to hundreds of millions of muslims.

Basically all current Sunni terrorist groups and radical movements have some connection to a saudi sponsored madrases, Islamic societies, terror network.

I recommend giving it a read if you have not already.[/quote]

Thanks I’ll check it out. I’ve read a bit about the Grand Mosque siege too. Of course bin Laden’s family won a contract to do multimillion dollar restorations and there’s signs they may have had some involvement. I read one of the early biographies of OBL back in 1999 and I was expecting something like 9/11 and wasn’t too surprised when it happened. KSM and Ramzi Yousef had previously tried something similar - the Bojinka Plot.[/quote]

No problem.

I found the Bin Laden construction info really interesting as well as the fact Osama Bin Laden went to the Wahhabi study groups initiated by Bin Baz and attended by Juhayman and his rebels and the claimed Mahdi who was a direct descendant of Muhammad.
So many of these guys can follow their lineage all the way back to battles in the seventh century.

Juhayman’s famous relative who fought by Muhammad’s side.

One historical relative was famous for conquering enemy areas and cutting the children from pregnant Shia’s stomachs. They belonged to the Ikhwan who were considered zealots even to Wahhabist’s
I love reading about the things that shaped and moulded historical figures. Fascinating to see the path that lead to historical figures and their outlook and actions.

36

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Musashi92 wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]TheCB wrote:
SM would you mind stating your academic/professional qualifications?

[/quote]

Just an arts degree. I’ve just had an interest in history for a long time and I’m a bibliophile. Unfortunately I don’t have as much time nowadays and I’m starting to forget a lot of the stuff that I studied when I was younger.

There’s some other posters here who’ve read more than I have on the subject. I’m not American. But depending on specifically what you’re interested in I can recommend:

The Heritage Guide to the Constitution - this is a technical work on the constitution itself from an originalist stand point.

Federalist Papers - you can find this on the net. Madison, Hamilton and Jay arguing in favour of the constitution.

The Anti-Federalist - also online. A collection of essays and articles opposing the constitution.

The above two give a good account of the arguments at the time for and against. The Federalist Papers also give a good indication of the original intent of the drafters.

Also, Madison’s notes from the convention.

Jefferson’s autobiography, letters and collected writings:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/094045016X/ref=mp_s_a_1_35?qid=1423245555&sr=8-35&pi=AC_SX110_SY165_QL70&keywords=james+madison&dpPl=1&dpID=41YJDDYBSPL&ref=plSrch

[/quote]

Thanks for the suggestions, especially the anti federalist. I would be very interested in reading something by the loyalist side.

37

[quote]Musashi92 wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Musashi92 wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]TheCB wrote:
SM would you mind stating your academic/professional qualifications?

[/quote]

Just an arts degree. I’ve just had an interest in history for a long time and I’m a bibliophile. Unfortunately I don’t have as much time nowadays and I’m starting to forget a lot of the stuff that I studied when I was younger.

There’s some other posters here who’ve read more than I have on the subject. I’m not American. But depending on specifically what you’re interested in I can recommend:

The Heritage Guide to the Constitution - this is a technical work on the constitution itself from an originalist stand point.

Federalist Papers - you can find this on the net. Madison, Hamilton and Jay arguing in favour of the constitution.

The Anti-Federalist - also online. A collection of essays and articles opposing the constitution.

The above two give a good account of the arguments at the time for and against. The Federalist Papers also give a good indication of the original intent of the drafters.

Also, Madison’s notes from the convention.

Jefferson’s autobiography, letters and collected writings:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/094045016X/ref=mp_s_a_1_35?qid=1423245555&sr=8-35&pi=AC_SX110_SY165_QL70&keywords=james+madison&dpPl=1&dpID=41YJDDYBSPL&ref=plSrch

[/quote]

Thanks for the suggestions, especially the anti federalist. I would be very interested in reading something by the loyalist side. [/quote]

No problem. But the anti-federalists weren’t loyalists. They were ardent republicans but they didn’t trust the nascent federal government and thought it would become despotic as the British had been. The federalists were closer to the loyalist side and some of them had been loyalists in the early days.

38

[quote]Musashi92 wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Musashi92 wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Which book?[/quote]

The siege of Mecca by Yaroslav Trofimov. I have bought 8 books on the topic of islam, islamism, the war in Aghanistan. I like to do block reading where I hammer a subject from multiple angles and viewpoints.

My next book will be the looming tower. I also have a bunch of others but these two are books I was recommended to get to the root of Wahhabism and its global spread, which started with the siege of the grand mosque.

In order to remove the rebels and the alleged Mahdi who would with the returned jesus christ wipe the christians and infidels from the planet and suck them into the ground per islamic prophecy, there would need to be a fatwa and an order from the Ulema to use weapons inside the grand mosque.
The house of Saud needed a fatwa and the ulema agreed, but said the Saudi’s would have to spread and fund the wahhabi sect that the very rebels themselves adhered to.
This lead to billions in oil money and insanely huge ammounts of Madrases and islamic learning centres preaching 7th century Wahhabist Islam, all over the globe, to hundreds of millions of muslims.

Basically all current Sunni terrorist groups and radical movements have some connection to a saudi sponsored madrases, Islamic societies, terror network.

I recommend giving it a read if you have not already.[/quote]

Thanks I’ll check it out. I’ve read a bit about the Grand Mosque siege too. Of course bin Laden’s family won a contract to do multimillion dollar restorations and there’s signs they may have had some involvement. I read one of the early biographies of OBL back in 1999 and I was expecting something like 9/11 and wasn’t too surprised when it happened. KSM and Ramzi Yousef had previously tried something similar - the Bojinka Plot.[/quote]

No problem.

I found the Bin Laden construction info really interesting as well as the fact Osama Bin Laden went to the Wahhabi study groups initiated by Bin Baz and attended by Juhayman and his rebels and the claimed Mahdi who was a direct descendant of Muhammad.
So many of these guys can follow their lineage all the way back to battles in the seventh century.

Juhayman’s famous relative who fought by Muhammad’s side.

One historical relative was famous for conquering enemy areas and cutting the children from pregnant Shia’s stomachs. They belonged to the Ikhwan who were considered zealots even to Wahhabist’s
I love reading about the things that shaped and moulded historical figures. Fascinating to see the path that lead to historical figures and their outlook and actions.

[/quote]

Looks like you’ve read quite a bit on this. It’s quite relevant too as ISIS is essentially a Mahdist uprising. The British knew how to deal with these fuckers back in the day. At the Battle of Omdurman Kitchener killed over ten thousand in a single day and blew up their holy tomb and that was the end of that.

39

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Musashi92 wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Musashi92 wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Which book?[/quote]

The siege of Mecca by Yaroslav Trofimov. I have bought 8 books on the topic of islam, islamism, the war in Aghanistan. I like to do block reading where I hammer a subject from multiple angles and viewpoints.

My next book will be the looming tower. I also have a bunch of others but these two are books I was recommended to get to the root of Wahhabism and its global spread, which started with the siege of the grand mosque.

In order to remove the rebels and the alleged Mahdi who would with the returned jesus christ wipe the christians and infidels from the planet and suck them into the ground per islamic prophecy, there would need to be a fatwa and an order from the Ulema to use weapons inside the grand mosque.
The house of Saud needed a fatwa and the ulema agreed, but said the Saudi’s would have to spread and fund the wahhabi sect that the very rebels themselves adhered to.
This lead to billions in oil money and insanely huge ammounts of Madrases and islamic learning centres preaching 7th century Wahhabist Islam, all over the globe, to hundreds of millions of muslims.

Basically all current Sunni terrorist groups and radical movements have some connection to a saudi sponsored madrases, Islamic societies, terror network.

I recommend giving it a read if you have not already.[/quote]

Thanks I’ll check it out. I’ve read a bit about the Grand Mosque siege too. Of course bin Laden’s family won a contract to do multimillion dollar restorations and there’s signs they may have had some involvement. I read one of the early biographies of OBL back in 1999 and I was expecting something like 9/11 and wasn’t too surprised when it happened. KSM and Ramzi Yousef had previously tried something similar - the Bojinka Plot.[/quote]

No problem.

I found the Bin Laden construction info really interesting as well as the fact Osama Bin Laden went to the Wahhabi study groups initiated by Bin Baz and attended by Juhayman and his rebels and the claimed Mahdi who was a direct descendant of Muhammad.
So many of these guys can follow their lineage all the way back to battles in the seventh century.

Juhayman’s famous relative who fought by Muhammad’s side.

One historical relative was famous for conquering enemy areas and cutting the children from pregnant Shia’s stomachs. They belonged to the Ikhwan who were considered zealots even to Wahhabist’s
I love reading about the things that shaped and moulded historical figures. Fascinating to see the path that lead to historical figures and their outlook and actions.

[/quote]

Looks like you’ve read quite a bit on this. It’s quite relevant too as ISIS is essentially a Mahdist uprising. The British knew how to deal with these fuckers back in the day. At the Battle of Omdurman Kitchener killed over ten thousand in a single day and blew up their holy tomb and that was the end of that.[/quote]

I have to agree that we need to wage real war against Islamist forces, on the ground, in numbers with clear goals. I get so angry when I hear liberals who supposedly champion gay rights, secular society, free markets and representative government defend Islamist ideology or compare us with them.
The only difference in our view on the matter seems to be I think we did cause some of the muslim (mainly shia) hatred and give many shia a reason to want to kill us, not that that legitimises terrorism.
I also see our collective colonial past as a great shame and stain on our history (the western powers not just the U.S) and if we as people all rejected that past and any future imperial or adventurist pursuits I would be one of the few who would support the idea of total war on all dictatorial and theocratic regimes.