Job's Children

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
When I first read the heading, I thought it was about Steve Job’s kids…

Mufasa[/quote]

When I first read it I was HOPING it would be…instead we’re going to get another religious discussion thread. [/quote]

I don’t see that as a bad thing. Do you? at least this thread is Labeled religiously instead of invading a political or science thread.[/quote]

Well first off I’m not a believer, but that really doesn’t have much to do with my opinion on this. We have a TON of religious themed threads on the first two pages and the forum is titled Politics and World Issues. Maybe a religious discussions forum would suit this place so people could hash this stuff out in an area that wasn’t PWI. At the very least almost all of these tend to be not politics and not world issues.

Just my .02.

[/quote]

Here I have to disagree. Politics and world issues have been driven by religious dispute for millennia, and our current age is no exception.

22

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
When I first read the heading, I thought it was about Steve Job’s kids…

Mufasa[/quote]

When I first read it I was HOPING it would be…instead we’re going to get another religious discussion thread. [/quote]

I don’t see that as a bad thing. Do you? at least this thread is Labeled religiously instead of invading a political or science thread.[/quote]

Well first off I’m not a believer, but that really doesn’t have much to do with my opinion on this. We have a TON of religious themed threads on the first two pages and the forum is titled Politics and World Issues. Maybe a religious discussions forum would suit this place so people could hash this stuff out in an area that wasn’t PWI. At the very least almost all of these tend to be not politics and not world issues.

Just my .02.

[/quote]

Here I have to disagree. Politics and world issues have been driven by religious dispute for millennia, and our current age is no exception.
[/quote]

No problem with the disagreeing and I know I’m in the minority on this one. I do think that our current political debates are very little driven by religion, less so than at any other time perhaps. Just seems like we may debate and discuss religion far more than current or past politics and far more than current or past world issues.

24

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
When I first read the heading, I thought it was about Steve Job’s kids…

Mufasa[/quote]

When I first read it I was HOPING it would be…instead we’re going to get another religious discussion thread. [/quote]

I don’t see that as a bad thing. Do you? at least this thread is Labeled religiously instead of invading a political or science thread.[/quote]

Well first off I’m not a believer, but that really doesn’t have much to do with my opinion on this. We have a TON of religious themed threads on the first two pages and the forum is titled Politics and World Issues. Maybe a religious discussions forum would suit this place so people could hash this stuff out in an area that wasn’t PWI. At the very least almost all of these tend to be not politics and not world issues.

Just my .02.

[/quote]

Here I have to disagree. Politics and world issues have been driven by religious dispute for millennia, and our current age is no exception.
[/quote]

No problem with the disagreeing and I know I’m in the minority on this one. I do think that our current political debates are very little driven by religion, less so than at any other time perhaps. Just seems like we may debate and discuss religion far more than current or past politics and far more than current or past world issues. [/quote]

You don’t think that the foreign policy of the United States would be drastically different were it not for the fundamental and mutual animosities and hostilities among Christians, Jews and Muslims?

25

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
When I first read the heading, I thought it was about Steve Job’s kids…

Mufasa[/quote]

When I first read it I was HOPING it would be…instead we’re going to get another religious discussion thread. [/quote]

I don’t see that as a bad thing. Do you? at least this thread is Labeled religiously instead of invading a political or science thread.[/quote]

Well first off I’m not a believer, but that really doesn’t have much to do with my opinion on this. We have a TON of religious themed threads on the first two pages and the forum is titled Politics and World Issues. Maybe a religious discussions forum would suit this place so people could hash this stuff out in an area that wasn’t PWI. At the very least almost all of these tend to be not politics and not world issues.

Just my .02.

[/quote]

Here I have to disagree. Politics and world issues have been driven by religious dispute for millennia, and our current age is no exception.
[/quote]

No problem with the disagreeing and I know I’m in the minority on this one. I do think that our current political debates are very little driven by religion, less so than at any other time perhaps. Just seems like we may debate and discuss religion far more than current or past politics and far more than current or past world issues. [/quote]

You don’t think that the foreign policy of the United States would be drastically different were it not for the fundamental and mutual animosities and hostilities among Christians, Jews and Muslims?
[/quote]

Of course that is important, but search the last 4 pages of PWI and count up the number of times “religious” threads discuss anything of that nature.

I guess my beef (and it really isn’t THAT big a deal, it’s just the internet) is that I come here for politics and world issues and I think a lot of times threads aren’t designed with those in mind. As funny as dude masturbating in McDonald’s parking lot is, it isn’t a politics or world issue. As “important” as I’m sure the Catholic propaganda vortex videos are, they aren’t politics or world issues. To me on forums this is what “random shit” threads are all about, and we have a few of those.

So I guess in all actuality I’m a little more annoyed with thread starters not framing threads about PWI stuff than anything else.

And really this has nothing to do with Maiden, and more with kneedragger and some of our other frequent offenders and I didn’t mean to derail I merely pointed out I was hoping this was about Jobs kids the Apple guy :slight_smile:

26

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Last point: if all children who are killed, by act of God or otherwise, are assured a place in heaven, then why the fuss over abortion? If God owns the bodies of the unborn, and is happy to usher their souls into a “better place”, then surely the freeing of an innocent soul from a temporary body so it can flit up to be with its creator should be pleasing to God.

Over to you.
[/quote]
Original sin? [/quote]

There haven’t been any original sins for quite a while. Most people are sadly unoriginal when it comes to sinning. All the good sins have already been done. [/quote]

Challenge accepted.

27

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Last point: if all children who are killed, by act of God or otherwise, are assured a place in heaven, then why the fuss over abortion? If God owns the bodies of the unborn, and is happy to usher their souls into a “better place”, then surely the freeing of an innocent soul from a temporary body so it can flit up to be with its creator should be pleasing to God.

Over to you.
[/quote]
Original sin? [/quote]

There haven’t been any original sins for quite a while. Most people are sadly unoriginal when it comes to sinning. All the good sins have already been done. [/quote]

Challenge accepted.[/quote]

Pics or it didn’t happen.

28

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
Job had ten children. God gave Satan permission to test Job’s righteousness. Satan in turn has his children killed. God rewards Job with a new and better family. I am obviously summarizing here and am no biblical expert, but why did God not care about Job’s children? Why did he give Satan permission to kill them to settle a bet with Satan? [/quote]
We are told no more than what we are and I therefore dare not probe beyond what has been revealed.
Read the 9th chapter of the epistle of Paul: “To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints:” That whole book is one giant context, for the sake time start with verse 9 and read until 24.

http://biblehub.com/esv/romans/9.htm

God does what he wants with His own creation, limited only by His own nature and until somebody else with no beginning or end and who is in eternally contemporaneous possession of all actual and possible knowledge commands light and matter to exist from nothing by the power of their word, I will be entirely unimpressed with their contrary opinion.

29

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
First off, …
Which brings up another point. Satan didn’t kill anyone in this story. God did. He didn’t “allow it to happen”, he did it himself.

…
[/quote]

No. Wrong.

Reread 1:11-19.
In v11, the Adversary taunts and asks God to stretch forth (His) hand. But no, in the following verse, “Now the Lord said to the Adversary, ‘Behold, all that he has is in your hands; only upon him do not stretch forth your hand.’”

The calamities that follow are the result of God’s withdrawing “His hand,” and not at His hand.

The calamities themselves form a poetic structure: 3 + 1, alternating “natural disasters” with human disaster. It does not say God caused “god’s fire” to fall or the east wind to blow. It happened. (Note that in other instances of “God’s fire”–in Numbers or in Kings–it is explicit whether God acts or does not act. Here, it is not explicit that God acts to cause the fire to fall.)

Parts of Job are among the oldest parts of the Hebrew BIble, but the framing device of Chapter 1 may be a bit younger. Note that even in Chapter 1, the events that befall Job’s kids are similar to–but not exactly–like the curses of Deutoronomy’s last chapters. But that, I think, is not the point: the parallel here is made between Job and Abram. Job is a descendent of Nahor, Abram’s brother. The Adversary’s first words are his role (a common narrative construction in the OT): “From going to and fro on the earth and from walking in it.” Compare this to Genesis 13:17, God’s command to Abram: “Rise, walk in the land, to its length and to its breadth, for I will give it to you.”

The Adversary’s role to act as a prosecuting attorney, and he has failed, since for all his wandering, he cannot find anyone to equal Abram.

And last, what day does this “prosecution” occur? Job1:6 “Now the day came about, and the angels of God came to stand beside the Lord, and the Adversary, too, came among them.” It is not a day, it is the day, a construction that in some contexts (and in Mishneh, as it turns out) means Rosh Hashanah, the day in which mankind fall under the judgment of God. (And ten days before the commemoration of the binding of Isaac, Yom Hakipurim.)

So the “trial” starts at the instigation of the Adversary. There the parallel of Job to Abram is established textually and by the “sacrifice” of his progeny. This sacrifice is this time accomplished, not by God Himself, but because God’s hand is withheld, and not (as in Isaac’s case, by an angel) extended in protection. The consequences are similar to the Deutoronomic curse, perhaps because Job is not of the tribe, but his children are subject to Noahide laws.

All this before any discussion of how God allows evil to occur.
And this is only the first chapter?

30

Can Satan control the weather? Does he command the fire of God?

I never knew he had so much power.

I thought he only influenced the minds of men.

He’s been holding out on me.

I’ll have to increase his legal fees.

31

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Can Satan control the weather? Does he command the fire of God?

I never knew he had so much power.

I thought he only influenced the minds of men.

He’s been holding out on me.

I’ll have to increase his legal fees. [/quote]

Oh…I see… a trick question.

Where in this text does it say that God by His hand did these things?
Where in any of the OT does it say explicitly that God controls every breeze, the fall of the sparrow, every lighting bolt?
(Don’t presume when you don’t need to do so; or if a presumption is drawn from the text, declare it as such.)
God the character is known by His acts; He acts or He does not act. Shit happens, but nowhere does it say “Let there be shit.”

32

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
Especially if those Sumerian Kids went directly to Heaven (why WOULDN’T they btw?)…The main problem here is people put
the utmost, grandiose importance on this VERY short life which Scripture compares to fuckin’ water vapor anyway, that people utterly
fail to see the bigger picture…the much bigger picture of eternal life.

One doesn’t own one’s ‘‘body’’ anyway…God does, 100%, and IF you get that, you just need to surrender and humble yourself
to the fact he didn’t forget to make you as an living being after he made the innumerable
NAMED stars and millions of Planets…think about it, he didn’t forget to make you as an individual…you are loved but
tomorrow is not promised to you here, so be grateful you exist in the first place because it’s where you
ultimately end up that really matters, and at least in Christianity that’s completely your choice, not his.

There are some ‘interpretations’/explanations to the Job Story as to what it means…I’ve heard a few,
but I’m no theologian by any means to dissect it all, yet…The Bible is literally a lifetimes’ worth
of study, and then some.[/quote]

First off, these are adult children we’re talking about here. Job was an old man at the time, and the “kids” were adults who held feasts with their sisters and their families. No word about whether they too were righteous, so a guaranteed place in heaven is not a foregone conclusion, unless one believes that Job’s burnt offerings assured them this place. A Christian would say that Job’s vicarious sacrifice on behalf of his children wiped away their sins, much like God’s sacrifice of his son vicariously wiped away the sins of an entire species, but that does nothing for the servants and friends who were also present at the hall when it got leveled by the fire of God.

Which brings up another point. Satan didn’t kill anyone in this story. God did. He didn’t “allow it to happen”, he did it himself.

Last point: if all children who are killed, by act of God or otherwise, are assured a place in heaven, then why the fuss over abortion? If God owns the bodies of the unborn, and is happy to usher their souls into a “better place”, then surely the freeing of an innocent soul from a temporary body so it can flit up to be with its creator should be pleasing to God.

Over to you.
[/quote]

Babies maybe fine…except for being torn apart in to different pieces before dying of lack of blood, but those doctors and nurses are guilty of murder. Kind of an issue.

33

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
Especially if those Sumerian Kids went directly to Heaven (why WOULDN’T they btw?)…The main problem here is people put
the utmost, grandiose importance on this VERY short life which Scripture compares to fuckin’ water vapor anyway, that people utterly
fail to see the bigger picture…the much bigger picture of eternal life.

One doesn’t own one’s ‘‘body’’ anyway…God does, 100%, and IF you get that, you just need to surrender and humble yourself
to the fact he didn’t forget to make you as an living being after he made the innumerable
NAMED stars and millions of Planets…think about it, he didn’t forget to make you as an individual…you are loved but
tomorrow is not promised to you here, so be grateful you exist in the first place because it’s where you
ultimately end up that really matters, and at least in Christianity that’s completely your choice, not his.

There are some ‘interpretations’/explanations to the Job Story as to what it means…I’ve heard a few,
but I’m no theologian by any means to dissect it all, yet…The Bible is literally a lifetimes’ worth
of study, and then some.[/quote]

First off, these are adult children we’re talking about here. Job was an old man at the time, and the “kids” were adults who held feasts with their sisters and their families. No word about whether they too were righteous, so a guaranteed place in heaven is not a foregone conclusion, unless one believes that Job’s burnt offerings assured them this place. A Christian would say that Job’s vicarious sacrifice on behalf of his children wiped away their sins, much like God’s sacrifice of his son vicariously wiped away the sins of an entire species, but that does nothing for the servants and friends who were also present at the hall when it got leveled by the fire of God.

Which brings up another point. Satan didn’t kill anyone in this story. God did. He didn’t “allow it to happen”, he did it himself.

Last point: if all children who are killed, by act of God or otherwise, are assured a place in heaven, then why the fuss over abortion? If God owns the bodies of the unborn, and is happy to usher their souls into a “better place”, then surely the freeing of an innocent soul from a temporary body so it can flit up to be with its creator should be pleasing to God.

Over to you.
[/quote]

In the old testament Jews are Gods chosen, and guaranteed a place in heaven (I could be wrong though. There may be a couple of clauses that can prevent that, I don’t know.)

[/quote]

Job was not a Jew. He wasn’t even a Hebrew. He was Aramean, from what is now Syria. If he existed at all. A number of rabbinical scholars are of the opinion that he did not. [/quote]

From the Greek version of the book of Job:

‘Job dwelt in Ausitis on the confines of Idumea and Arabia…his original name was Johab. He married an Arabian woman and fathered Ennon. Job’s father was Zerah who was from the lineage of Esau â?? five generations from Abraham. They were natives of Bozrah. The text continues that Job reigned in Edom succeeding Balak, the son of Beor.’

The setting is Edom in the Southern-most part of Transjordan also referred to as Kedem, translated as ‘the east’ - the Kedemites were known for their wisdom(1 Kings 5.10)

34

One wonders where the souls of those infants go…at what specific time does the soul enter anyway?
Does that soul get directed to another body if the soul is allowed to comport to another one with another
personality trait other than from it’s original genetic destination?..Does it go back up to Heaven
and ‘grow up’ with a Spiritual Body there?
Would that soul originally destined to grow up in a starving area of Africa if aborted
later go to a womb to an affluent American suburb? How about vice versa, and how much “later”?
Within Seconds? Minutes? Years? And where is that soul in the interim?

How about the controversial Catholic theory of ‘‘Limbo’’ for dead infant souls?

Too many mysteries…unless one’s Athiest, in which case the Pope’s gotcha covered BEEEEE CAUSE,
he says your good ‘‘concience’’ is good enough save you without believing in God…Whew, you Athiests are SO
lucky to have the Pope on your side now Man…What better advocate could you have now?

35

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
Especially if those Sumerian Kids went directly to Heaven (why WOULDN’T they btw?)…The main problem here is people put
the utmost, grandiose importance on this VERY short life which Scripture compares to fuckin’ water vapor anyway, that people utterly
fail to see the bigger picture…the much bigger picture of eternal life.

One doesn’t own one’s ‘‘body’’ anyway…God does, 100%, and IF you get that, you just need to surrender and humble yourself
to the fact he didn’t forget to make you as an living being after he made the innumerable
NAMED stars and millions of Planets…think about it, he didn’t forget to make you as an individual…you are loved but
tomorrow is not promised to you here, so be grateful you exist in the first place because it’s where you
ultimately end up that really matters, and at least in Christianity that’s completely your choice, not his.

There are some ‘interpretations’/explanations to the Job Story as to what it means…I’ve heard a few,
but I’m no theologian by any means to dissect it all, yet…The Bible is literally a lifetimes’ worth
of study, and then some.[/quote]

First off, these are adult children we’re talking about here. Job was an old man at the time, and the “kids” were adults who held feasts with their sisters and their families. No word about whether they too were righteous, so a guaranteed place in heaven is not a foregone conclusion, unless one believes that Job’s burnt offerings assured them this place. A Christian would say that Job’s vicarious sacrifice on behalf of his children wiped away their sins, much like God’s sacrifice of his son vicariously wiped away the sins of an entire species, but that does nothing for the servants and friends who were also present at the hall when it got leveled by the fire of God.

Which brings up another point. Satan didn’t kill anyone in this story. God did. He didn’t “allow it to happen”, he did it himself.

Last point: if all children who are killed, by act of God or otherwise, are assured a place in heaven, then why the fuss over abortion? If God owns the bodies of the unborn, and is happy to usher their souls into a “better place”, then surely the freeing of an innocent soul from a temporary body so it can flit up to be with its creator should be pleasing to God.

Over to you.
[/quote]

In the old testament Jews are Gods chosen, and guaranteed a place in heaven (I could be wrong though. There may be a couple of clauses that can prevent that, I don’t know.)

[/quote]

Job was not a Jew. He wasn’t even a Hebrew. He was Aramean, from what is now Syria. If he existed at all. A number of rabbinical scholars are of the opinion that he did not. [/quote]

From the Greek version of the book of Job:

‘Job dwelt in Ausitis on the confines of Idumea and Arabia…his original name was Johab. He married an Arabian woman and fathered Ennon. Job’s father was Zerah who was from the lineage of Esau â?? five generations from Abraham. They were natives of Bozrah. The text continues that Job reigned in Edom succeeding Balak, the son of Beor.’

The setting is Edom in the Southern-most part of Transjordan also referred to as Kedem, translated as ‘the east’ - the Kedemites were known for their wisdom(1 Kings 5.10)[/quote]

From Genesis 22:
20. And it came to pass after these matters, that it was told to Abraham saying: "Behold Milcah, she also bore sons to Nahor your brother.
21. Uz, his first born, and Buz his brother, and Kemuel, the father of Aram.

True, it does not say that Job was a descendent of Uz, and it gives no parentage at all.

Uz, ('wtz) is Abraham’s nephew through Nahor II.

But the confusion is understandable. In Genesis 36, in listing Esau’s (and hence, Abraham’s) progeny, are many of the names of Job’s chapters: Uz (again!), Eliphaz, Teman, etc. The Greek exegesis to which you refer slips in a name change from Jobab to Joab, but the Hebrew spelling is not close.

36

[quote]Karado wrote:
One wonders where the souls of those infants go…at what specific time does the soul enter anyway?
Does that soul get directed to another body if the soul is allowed to comport to another one with another
personality trait other than from it’s original genetic destination?..Does it go back up to Heaven
and ‘grow up’ with a Spiritual Body there?
Would that soul originally destined to grow up in a starving area of Africa if aborted
later go to a womb to an affluent American suburb? How about vice versa, and how much “later”?
Within Seconds? Minutes? Years? And where is that soul in the interim?

How about the controversial Catholic theory of ‘‘Limbo’’ for dead infant souls?

Too many mysteries…unless one’s Athiest, in which case the Pope’s gotcha covered BEEEEE CAUSE,
he says your good ‘‘concience’’ is good enough save you without believing in God…Whew, you Athiests are SO
lucky to have the Pope on your side now Man…What better advocate could you have now?
[/quote]

Finding more and more to like about this new Pope!

One of my friends families is die hard catholic and they almost lost their child shortly after birth.* Having to rush a priest to the hospital to keep your kid from being fucked out of the afterlife for a while? So if the priest has a flat tire on the way and doesn’t make it now your kid is screwed? This has to be one of the dumber beliefs in a long list of absurd beliefs. Damn, Priest had car trouble so bad news for junior who apparently lived a bad 35 second life. Such is the will of God! Praise him!

*Kid ended up being ok and is healthy.

37

[quote]Karado wrote:
One wonders where the souls of those infants go…at what specific time does the soul enter anyway?
Does that soul get directed to another body if the soul is allowed to comport to another one with another
personality trait other than from it’s original genetic destination?..Does it go back up to Heaven
and ‘grow up’ with a Spiritual Body there?
Would that soul originally destined to grow up in a starving area of Africa if aborted
later go to a womb to an affluent American suburb? How about vice versa, and how much “later”?
Within Seconds? Minutes? Years? And where is that soul in the interim?[/quote]

So, you believe in reincarnation? The theory is that the children in abortion go to Heaven.

Hypothesis, not theory. And, Limbo has been taken off the table and voted against as being real. So, no Limbo, sorry.

[quote]Too many mysteries…unless one’s Athiest, in which case the Pope’s gotcha covered BEEEEE CAUSE,
he says your good ‘‘concience’’ is good enough save you without believing in God…Whew, you Athiests are SO
lucky to have the Pope on your side now Man…What better advocate could you have now?
[/quote]

I think I’ll need a source for this, because I have not seen this at all. However, Pope Francis did say that atheists are redeemed, which is much different than salvation. So, atheists aren’t saved until baptism (and, communion and confirmation) and being in God’s grace. Nevertheless, we are all redeemed as Jesus died for all men.

source: Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics | HuffPost Religion
source: Did Pope Francis Really Say All Atheists are Redeemed? : Strange Notions

P.S. Redemption =/= salvation (or saving as you put it)

38

Francis didn’t add what you added though…Baptism, Communion, Confirmation.
One would think those little details, especially when addressing athiests, would be of paramount importance…But ‘crickets’ on those other ‘must do’s’.

BTW, The comments section below the linked article are heavily against the Pope on what he said, Did those people read it wrong as well?

http://www.catholic.org/hf/faith/story.php?id=51077

39

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
Job had ten children. God gave Satan permission to test Job’s righteousness. Satan in turn has his children killed. God rewards Job with a new and better family. I am obviously summarizing here and am no biblical expert, but why did God not care about Job’s children? Why did he give Satan permission to kill them to settle a bet with Satan? [/quote]

It’s not unreasonable to speculate about the fate and the reason for the fate of Job’s kids. But it will be always speculation because the story is about Job and not his kids. It may be written somewhere, or may have been written about and lost, but we will never know that dynamic of the story because we simply do not have that information.

This is the type of thing new atheist use to prove the ‘God is a big fat meanie’ school of atheism.
And he didn’t get a new and better family, he was restored 100 fold for withstanding the test of faith, but it doesn’t erase the memories of the suffering. Perseverance through suffering is the general motif of Job.
The story of Job is more interesting to those who have experienced real suffering and have persevered against all odds in faith. You never lose the scares.

The OT has a lot of these type dynamics, and they are far more interesting when you way the different components against each other. The history books, cross sected with the prophetic and poetry books gives you a far rounder understanding of life, and the role of faith and the role of human error. It takes time and dedication to understand it. Even if not as a book of faith but as a work of literature.

Also understanding that the work is condensed and the time passage between events is quite great.
There’s a lot to it and an atheist will never really understand it because it takes an enormous amount of work and most theists barely understand it, and those who study it for a living understand it only somewhat. It’s a great deal of work but it tells an interesting story for those willing to put in the work and suffer through the boring parts.

40

I don’t think I’d have said that last part the same way, but not bad Pat.