Jesus Rode a Dinosaur

[quote]pookie wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
What in the world are you talking about? The fact that my church and churches like it are tax exempt, has nothing whatsoever to do with the substance of my points.

Let me explain for the slow kid in the back. You’ve often repeated that PUBLIC SCHOOLS should have to present all competing “theories,” because they’re all unproven and unprovable. Public schools get public money, so they’re public property, yadda-yadda-yadda.

Your church has tax exempt status. So it’s also costing the taxpayers money, the same as the public school. What’s good for the goose, is good for the gander. You want to teach creation and ID in school, fine. As long as you either preach Darwin and evolution in church or renounce your tax exempt status; therefore becoming a “private” church where you can preach what you want.

The church is made up of plenty of taxpayers who work very hard for our pay and pay much in taxes here in New York. We are paying plenty.

Yeah, you are, but the church itself isn’t. You tithe or something, right? And all that nice property and those nice buildings? Think of all the property taxes being lost to the public good.

This has nothing to do with anything. Pookie, what happened to your logic and reason? Why is it that when it comes to Evolution / Creation you seem to get so upset that you sort of “lose it?”

No, it’s perfectly logical and quite reasonable. You and your church want to ram religion into the school’s curriculum. In the best interest of the kids, of course. Since the idea is so great, I think it should be applied to the church with equal gusto. Think of all those fine church attending people who might have never heard of Darwin, or might not be on the up and up on DNA and the latest genetic research.

I don’t understand how you can be against that? It’s your own idea. Since it’s so good, I think it should apply across the board to every institution that teaches or preaches. I mean, science is just another religion, right? And all theories, even yours, should get equal time?

What is it you don’t understand about this simple idea?[/quote]

Pookie,

It is too late and I won’t go point by point, but YOU DON’T know what you are talking about.

Here in America the churches are PRIVATE and religious and thus are not taxed. No church is. This is costing the taxpayers nothing – all the money going to support the pastor and the ministry is AFTER TAX money anyway.

What nice buildings? I wish! Churches like mine are usually very modest places. Actually, our church doesn’t own anytthing. We rent storefront commerical property to hold our services in.

Again, in your valiant effort blow smoke, you simply don’t know what you are talking about. Churches exist to preach whatever they believe. They are private and thus we don’t have to have all opinions. No religious or private institution does.

Again, if you want to form private “Darwinian” schools and teach your faith in Darwin and his ridiculous “theory” as fact, go right ahead. But, you cannot have a monopoly in a PUBLIC SETTING. All theories for everything are taught – except the origin issue. That you want all to your beloved Darwin.

Too bad, people like me are out here who will fight this tooth and nail.

Pookie, get the facts straight before you reply.

[quote]pookie wrote:

I don’t understand how you can be against that? It’s your own idea. Since it’s so good, I think it should apply across the board to every institution that teaches or preaches. I mean, science is just another religion, right? And all theories, even yours, should get equal time?

[/quote]

I never said that “science” is just another religion. I can only conclude that your failure to quote me accurately is another veiled attempt to discredit what I am saying without having the substance to do it.

So, here it goes again…

True science IS science. Science tries to formulate hypothesis and then test them to verify if they explain the phenomenon in question.

Since Darwinian Evolution cannot be verified, IT (IT = Darwinian Evolution) is NOT SCIENCE.

Again, I am saying that real sciecne is science. My point is simple: Darwinian Evloution is not science – it is faith. Faith is religion and thus should not be in science class.

Now, do you get it?

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Here in America the churches are PRIVATE and religious and thus are not taxed. No church is. This is costing the taxpayers nothing[/quote]

Come on Steve, how can you be a republican and a capitalist and have so little understanding of how the economy works?

If entity X is tax exempt, then it does not pay taxes. Those taxes not paid are not available to be spent for the public good.

To say it costs the taxpayers nothing is simply daft. If churches weren’t tax exempt, the taxes they’d pay would be available to the public.

No Steve, not from the pastor’s point of view. He doesn’t pay taxes, so it’s pure revenue.

When you buy an item at some store, the money you use to pay for it is AFTER TAX; the store owner still has to declare it as revenue.

Economics 101, Steve. Look into it.

Well just because your church is poorly managed or composed entirely of cheapskates doesn’t constitute a valid reason as to why you shouldn’t pay your fair share.

Other churches do it properly. Look at the Vatican. How much is that place worth? Some taxes are being lost somewhere.

They’re private in theory. But since they don’t pay their fair share of taxes, they cost the taxpayer money. Other private institutions “win” their right to operate privately by contributing to the public good. Churches don’t pay their fair share, Steve, and are thus publicly supported.

Does my Darwinian school get tax-exempt status?

Exactly! Equal pulpit time. All those churches I don’t attend mean I must pay more taxes. Hence, they cost me something. Since I indirectly pay for that, I want my pulpit time to preach my views.

I pay for free health care and I can get free healthcare. I pay to make up whatever’s lost from the churches not paying their share; I want my money’s worth.

I thought you were against “hand-outs” in principle…

It doesn’t have to be Darwin. It simply has to be backed up by evidence. Fairy tales are out. I mean, there are about 3000 religions in the world, we’ll be in class for forty years if we’re to cover them all.

You’ll lose anyway. You missed the Bronze age by a few milleniums.

My facts are fine. You seem to have trouble understanding very simple concepts.

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
I never said that “science” is just another religion.[/quote]

Right, right. Only the parts of science that disagree with your Big Book of Tall Tales.

There’s not that much to discredit to begin with, and you do a pretty good job of it yourself.

But I digress…

[quote]So, here it goes again…

True science IS science. Science tries to formulate hypothesis and then test them to verify if they explain the phenomenon in question. [/quote]

Well then, you’ll be happy to hear that that simple method has been applied to macroevolution: 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: The Scientific Case for Common Descent Let me know what you think of those 29 “evidences.”

You see, Steve, this is where you’re being dishonest. It is an impossible demand to be able to fill out in complete details what happened all over the globe for a period of nearly 4 billions years.

And because we’ll never be able to “prove” every detail of every second that passed, you’ll claim “It’s just a theory! It cannot be verified.”

Me, when I see that about 98-99% of observed evidence fits with the theory, I tell myself that it must be pretty close to being the truth. Trivial details can be worked out later.

But hey, you’re not one to let some little things like FACTS get in the way of what you believe right?

[quote]Again, I am saying that real sciecne is science. My point is simple: Darwinian Evloution is not science – it is faith. Faith is religion and thus should not be in science class.

Now, do you get it?
[/quote]

I think you need to look up a bunch of definitions. You keep using words like “faith”, “theory”, “proof” and “science” and I don’t think you’re quite clear on their meaning.

That might be why you seem to be so confused on this and many other threads. The words you use don’t mean what you think they mean. Look into it, SteveO.

Looks like some fine, God-fearing Christian folk are trying to get South Carolina to become an independant, Christian nation:

http://christianexodus.org/

Steveo,

I think discussions of faith are appropriate, in some places, with those that wish to participate.

However, as I stated in another thread, I have my own personal beliefs and views. Religious statements intersect with my views just as assuredly as my statements intersect with religious statements.

Perhaps you religious folks are intolerant of my own beliefs just as much as I am intolerant of yours?

I feel the bible was written by men during some rather cruel and dark times. Slavery, women as second class citizens, a thunder and lightning diety promising hell in the hereafter, oppressive regimes, persecution. Holy shit, what a crappy time period.

The musings of the people at that time certainly made sense then, but I question their usefulness now. I question their accuracy. I am tired of being inundated with that material day in and day out – via coopting message boards that are not meant for preaching theology.

If you find that intolerant, then so be it. You are welcome to live your life within the law, but I don’t have to express approval, nor do I have to be happy when your expressions intrude into my own life.

Tolerance is not the same thing as going out of my way to encourage it our encounter it.

I am tolerant of any religion, though I’d rather keep it out of my own life, because while some of the ideas contained are great, religion itself is perpetually a cause of strife on this planet, especially in the hands of fundamentalists and literalists.

This truth, this fact, that religion is in fact the cause of so much strife and suffering, even now, causes me to reject it. That it fights against science and education, free thinking, and encourages ignorance, causes me to reject it.

This does not make me an atheist, but it does mean that I consider myself as empowered to interpret the meaning of life and how to live it as a bunch of philosophers several thousand years ago did.

Anyway, I really do suspect there are many places on the Internet which are designed for the discussion of religion and theology – where you will find like minded people interested in sharing your faith with you.

This is not one of those places. Your belief that every place should be thus, does not override my countering belief, no matter how much you think you are “right”.

Emu: Wanna apologize,I misread your bible statement and didn’t catch the double not (after 7 hours of coding you start seeing things). I actually wondered why you would say something like that, and reread it to make sure, still never caught it.

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
pookie wrote:

I don’t understand how you can be against that? It’s your own idea. Since it’s so good, I think it should apply across the board to every institution that teaches or preaches. I mean, science is just another religion, right? And all theories, even yours, should get equal time?

I never said that “science” is just another religion. I can only conclude that your failure to quote me accurately is another veiled attempt to discredit what I am saying without having the substance to do it.

So, here it goes again…

True science IS science. Science tries to formulate hypothesis and then test them to verify if they explain the phenomenon in question.

Since Darwinian Evolution cannot be verified, IT (IT = Darwinian Evolution) is NOT SCIENCE.

Again, I am saying that real sciecne is science. My point is simple: Darwinian Evloution is not science – it is faith. Faith is religion and thus should not be in science class.

Now, do you get it?
[/quote]

Very well put Steveo. Unfortunately, I believe your effort will be wasted on many of the participants on this thread. Too many people here are unable to grasp this concept.

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Faith is religion…
[/quote]

faith = religion is incorrect…

someone can have faith in a religion…

someone can have faith in the united states postal service…

but I doubt anyone will start a religion based on their faith that a letter sent via the USPS will arrive at the proper destination marked on the envelope…

some people even have faith in politicians (those people are all completely crazy of course)…

so you see, people can have faith in many things that have nothing to do with religion…

[quote]pookie wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
I never said that “science” is just another religion.

Right, right. Only the parts of science that disagree with your Big Book of Tall Tales.
[/quote]

Book of Tall Tales = Origin of Species

There you go again, Pookie. When you cannot make the argument, you resort to insulting me or insulting God. Real intelligent way to have a discussion.

I just saw this page and I will actually go through it, but it will take me some time since I do have other things to do with my life.

I wonder if I asked you to read certain passages in the Bible or books written from a Creationist perspective, would you be willing to do so?

Yeah, “trivial details” like where did the “thing” that “banged” come from in the first place. Like, who created it? How did the first fish that walked out of the water breath on its own? You know, trite little details like these come later, in the meantime of course, you teach it all as FACT. Now that’s what I call dishonest!

Actually, I am very confident when you look at FACTS they are on the Creationist side.

For example:

Newton’s First Law is supported by the Creation account. God created in a literal six day time frame and then the Bible says He ended the creation. Matter cannot be created nor destroyed, only changed from one form of energy into another. This is one strong fact Pookie.

Newton’s Second Law (Entropy) – Systems “wind down” i.e. increase in chaos – not “evolve” into more complex and ordered forms. Look around you – society itself has degenerated over time, not to mention all of the natural disasters going on lately…

Please take your own advice. I completely understand what these terms mean and have used it quite intentionally. You look them up…

Why don’t you define them for the rest of us Pookie. Make a list of the terms you listed above and give your definitions of them. I have already given mine in the context in which I use these words.

Scream it. Shout it. Do whatever you want, it still does not make Darwinism science. It is simply a form of faith. Faith in the ability of the things that are made to create themselves in the absence of a Divine Creator.

Darwinism = Atheistic Relgion and nothing more. So, Pookie, you should look into that…

[/quote]

[quote]vroom wrote:
It seems like you are more intolerant of Christians excercising their faith on these threads. This last post seems downright hostile. The man is posting Scripture which he believes is God’s Holy Word. You then make fun of a great man of God (Apostle Paul) and go on to seem a bit intolerant or not open to see in yourself what the Bible is saying.

Steveo,

I think discussions of faith are appropriate, in some places, with those that wish to participate.
[/quote]

Who is forcing you to participate in these threads Vroom. You post in all of them, and then you say that you don’t want to participate. Which is it?

Nice try, but it doesn’t fly. I am very tolerant of your views and the views of others. I have NEVER once said in any of my posts that atheists shouldn’t post or discuss their ideas, etc. I has been you and others who have said that about me and other people of faith on this site.

You can “feel” anything you wish. Your feelings necessarily make it true. Have you done an in-depth study of Biblical prophecy to see if the Bible is accurate? Have you studied about the Dead Sea Scrolls and how that these show the Bible’s inerrancy. Have you even read the Bible Vroom? You just post opinions based on your “feelings” and not facts.

Sin Vroom is the cause of all of the world’s problems. Not God. It is the sinfulness of man – that is the cause.

True religion does none of these things. Since God is the Author of His creation, He is the author of science as well. True science is not incompatible with faith. False science is.

Ignorance…there you go again with the insults! Unbelivable. I am a lot of things, but ignorant is not one of them. I have studied about what I speak about. Again, how much Bible study have you done so you can render these absolute opinions like you do Vroom?

“Christians not welcome on T-Nation” – why don’t you start a thread with this name.

Christians who have a strong faith are not welcome by you, but you obviously have no problem with atheists, homosexuals, Buddists, Muslims, secular philosophy (a thread that YOU started).

How ridiculous do you sound here? Did I ever tell YOU that “secular philosophy does not belong on T-Nation?”

Actually Vroom, remember, it was YOU who told me not to post on your thread but to start my own.

Well, I took your advice…

God is right. You are wrong.

Take it up with Him…

[quote]terribleivan wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
pookie wrote:

I don’t understand how you can be against that? It’s your own idea. Since it’s so good, I think it should apply across the board to every institution that teaches or preaches. I mean, science is just another religion, right? And all theories, even yours, should get equal time?

Thanks, but Isaiah 55 tells us that 'God’s Word doesn’t return void…"

I am trusting Him to change hearts even here on T-Nation.
I never said that “science” is just another religion. I can only conclude that your failure to quote me accurately is another veiled attempt to discredit what I am saying without having the substance to do it.

So, here it goes again…

True science IS science. Science tries to formulate hypothesis and then test them to verify if they explain the phenomenon in question.

Since Darwinian Evolution cannot be verified, IT (IT = Darwinian Evolution) is NOT SCIENCE.

Again, I am saying that real sciecne is science. My point is simple: Darwinian Evloution is not science – it is faith. Faith is religion and thus should not be in science class.

Now, do you get it?

Very well put Steveo. Unfortunately, I believe your effort will be wasted on many of the participants on this thread. Too many people here are unable to grasp this concept.[/quote]

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
atheists, homosexuals, Buddists, Muslims, secular philosophy
[/quote]

I can’t wait to get to hell to hang out with all my friends…

I think you forgot Jews. They’re all doomed too right? Poor bastards never hopped on the Jesus bandwagon and now they have to pay…

[quote]swordthrower wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
atheists, homosexuals, Buddists, Muslims, secular philosophy

I can’t wait to get to hell to hang out with all my friends…

I think you forgot Jews. They’re all doomed too right? Poor bastards never hopped on the Jesus bandwagon and now they have to pay…[/quote]

You keep saying these things? Hell isn’t a place that you go to.

Please click on this link and scroll down to - Is The Devil In Charge Of Hell? Click on - Open Lesson

Hell cant be that bad really.

Have you ever been to Sheffield?

That really is Bad.

And they dont have any churches there.

At one place in the Bible, it says a day for God is a thousand years for man. Now, if you think about it, the message behind that statement is that God, being an eternal being, has a whole other realtionship with time. Why did the Hebrew text say that one of God’s Day’s was 1000 years? Probably because 1000 was as large a number as they could conceptualize. They were a culturally backward people, with even the Philistines, whose name is today synonomous with ignorance, being much more culturally advanced. So a day to God could just as easily be one billion years to us, only reason it doesn’t say this in the Bible being that the Hebrews had no concept of a billion.

Acording to Genesis, The Firmament was not separated from the waters until the second day, which would make the Earth about 5 billion years old, which jives with what science has said.

One a side note I once challenged a minister on the whole Adam and Eve thing. I pointed out that when Cain killed Abel, and he was forced to wander the Earth, he went to the land of Nod and took a wife. If Adam and Eve were the first people, I asked how their could be folks living in Nod. The man didn’t have an answer for me. His eyes got kind of wide and he gave me this “Don’t you be asking me this shit in church” look.

Blah blah blah.

Idolatrist.

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:

Scream it. Shout it. Do whatever you want, it still does not make Darwinism science. It is simply a form of faith. Faith in the ability of the things that are made to create themselves in the absence of a Divine Creator.

Darwinism = Atheistic Relgion and nothing more. So, Pookie, you should look into that…

[/quote]

Very well put Steveo. When people talk about the evolutionary theroy, the all too often forget about the THEROY part. It is not fact, it is a theroy - hence the name.

I am not the least bit surprised. As a child in school, the teacher would say “now we will learn about the evolutionay theroy”, and then start refering to it as evolution. So, the confusion is natural because people forget to associate it with theroy - They mistakenly associate it with fact.

This whole line of thought could lead to a discussion on the lack of proper education in our schools, but I don’t want to throw this thread off track…

[quote]Jprocrastinator wrote:
At one place in the Bible, it says a day for God is a thousand years for man. Now, if you think about it, the message behind that statement is that God, being an eternal being, has a whole other realtionship with time. Why did the Hebrew text say that one of God’s Day’s was 1000 years? Probably because 1000 was as large a number as they could conceptualize. They were a culturally backward people, with even the Philistines, whose name is today synonomous with ignorance, being much more culturally advanced. So a day to God could just as easily be one billion years to us, only reason it doesn’t say this in the Bible being that the Hebrews had no concept of a billion.

Acording to Genesis, The Firmament was not separated from the waters until the second day, which would make the Earth about 5 billion years old, which jives with what science has said.

One a side note I once challenged a minister on the whole Adam and Eve thing. I pointed out that when Cain killed Abel, and he was forced to wander the Earth, he went to the land of Nod and took a wife. If Adam and Eve were the first people, I asked how their could be folks living in Nod. The man didn’t have an answer for me. His eyes got kind of wide and he gave me this “Don’t you be asking me this shit in church” look. [/quote]

I suppose it is possible to shoehorn anything into a loose set of instructions.

[quote]terribleivan wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:

Scream it. Shout it. Do whatever you want, it still does not make Darwinism science. It is simply a form of faith. Faith in the ability of the things that are made to create themselves in the absence of a Divine Creator.

Darwinism = Atheistic Relgion and nothing more. So, Pookie, you should look into that…

Very well put Steveo. When people talk about the evolutionary theroy, the all too often forget about the THEROY part. It is not fact, it is a theroy - hence the name.

I am not the least bit surprised. As a child in school, the teacher would say “now we will learn about the evolutionay theroy”, and then start refering to it as evolution. So, the confusion is natural because people forget to associate it with theroy - They mistakenly associate it with fact.

This whole line of thought could lead to a discussion on the lack of proper education in our schools, but I don’t want to throw this thread off track…[/quote]

So, now we’re being educated about the scientific mthod by someone who cant spell ‘theory’ correctly.

For the 19 billionth time: a theory is not a guess. It’s not something some guy just pulled out of his ass.

A theory is a large schema MADE UP of facts.

Where the fuck did you guys go to college?