Jesus - Islam Perspective

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
However, the “Word” was in use prior to the NT and John. It is connected to the “messiah” or even “son of God”, but does not reference “Jesus”…
[/quote]

The entire preamble about the Word being with/and being God (the passage flatly names the Word as God–and the only Son as God, too), becoming flesh, is specifically about, and culminates, on Jesus. The fact there is only one Son, the Word-God made flesh, who John is preparing for, whose light he testifies to, ends specifically with Jesus being introduced as the the one he’d been waiting for. There’s no debate, as the language is far too clear and far too plain. This is like reading and ‘interpreting,’ “Dick and Jane ran down the hill.” It’s as plainly and clearly stated as that.

There’s no debate as the premise can’t survive the existence of an actual and plain scriptural passage which–sure enough–can be produced. Simply insurmountable. It’s an “Ah, yeah. Thanks for answering that,” moment.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Jesus was repeatedly distinguished from the Father in “language that a 3rd grader could follow, even”. [/quote]

Why wouldn’t he be? The trinity IS a trinity, not a mono-personality. A distinction drawn between the persons, and the ‘roles,’ is just as much a part of the trinity as the ‘One-God’ aspect. In the first place, I’m not sure even how these, distinctions, is supposed to be a challenge to Christianity, which flatly proclaims a triune God. What they didn’t tackle, and hoped noone would bring up, is that scripture flat out identifies the Word as being with God, while also being God, from the beginning. It flat out states that the only Son of God (through whom we can be sons of God. Also in the above passage), is also God—last line of the above passage. Scripture positively identifies seperated personalities/persons of a one God, in my passage.

That’s it for me. Scripture plainly shows Jesus as the one John led the way for…The Word (which is God, directly stated) made flesh. The only Son, God (says so in direct language), of God the Father, through whom we are sons of God. This too, plainly stated. Further replies from me, if still needed (really, it’s not), would be futile.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
However, the “Word” was in use prior to the NT and John. It is connected to the “messiah” or even “son of God”, but does not reference “Jesus”…
[/quote]

The entire preamble about the Word being with/and being God (the passage flatly names the Word as God–and the only Son as God, too), becoming flesh, is specifically about, and culminates, on Jesus. The fact there is only one Son, the Word-God made flesh, who John is preparing for, whose light he testifies to, ends specifically with Jesus being introduced as the the one he’d been waiting for. There’s no debate, as the language is far too clear and far too plain. This is like reading and ‘interpreting,’ “Dick and Jane ran down the hill.” It’s as plainly and clearly stated as that.

There’s no debate as the premise can’t survive the existence of an actual and plain scriptural passage which–sure enough–can be produced. Simply insurmountable. It’s an “Ah, yeah. Thanks for answering that,” moment.[/quote]

Is it your position that “son of God” in only used in reference to jesus? Let me make a point, and this was not the result of an exhaustive search. A simple google search produced the rebuttal:

So, to get to where you so simply conclude that “dick and jane ran down the hill” (not a great analogy), you first have to get by the interpretation of the “son of god”. To say “there is no debate” is simply sticking your head in the sand. And it’s fallacious. A bunch of Jews would disagree with you, not to mention Islam. But forget Islam. I think the Jews have a pretty strong claim of ownership to the OT.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Jesus was repeatedly distinguished from the Father in “language that a 3rd grader could follow, even”. [/quote]

Why wouldn’t he be? The trinity IS a trinity, not a mono-personality. A distinction drawn between the persons, and the ‘roles,’ is just as much a part of the trinity as the ‘One-God’ aspect. In the first place, I’m not sure even how these, distinctions, is supposed to be a challenge to Christianity, which flatly proclaims a triune God. What they didn’t tackle, and hoped noone would bring up, is that scripture flat out identifies the Word as being with God, while also being God, from the beginning. It flat out states that the only Son of God (through whom we can be sons of God. Also in the above passage), is also God—last line of the above passage. Scripture positively identifies seperated personalities/persons of a one God, in my passage.[/quote]

Well, you’re back to appealing to the authority of the Catholic Church aren’t you? Or can you provide clear biblical evidence for the concept of the “trinity” as taught by the Catholic Church? Is it your position there is no debate about the trinity either? For the record, there are “oneness” and “trinitarian” theologists.

Another simple search, another well reasoned rebuttal:

http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a40.htm

Is it still really as easy as “dick and jane ran down the hill?” I think the Jews would disagree.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
That’s it for me. Scripture plainly shows Jesus as the one John led the way for…The Word (which is God, directly stated) made flesh. The only Son, God (says so in direct language), of God the Father, through whom we are sons of God. This too, plainly stated. Further replies from me, if still needed (really, it’s not), would be futile. [/quote]

Well, too bad that’s “it” for you. As I said to Cortes (which is pointless) I wanted to have a discussion about it, not a debate. Because a debate frames the subject into wining and losing, instead of an earnest discussion. I realize actual discussions rarely take place within the confines of these forums. Too bad, b/c there are some pretty bright people here. And there are a bunch of adolescent idiots too.

Anyway, the “son of god” title falls apart under debate. Apparently, it’s a matter of interpretation and if that’s the case, then yes, further discussion would be futile because there are opposing interpretations. But it’s disingenuous of you to come into the thread and bark that it’s “plain english” when it is not. If it’s a matter of interpretation, it’s not “plain”.

Would you care to rebut the following since the issues are so “plain”?

http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/Ted_Hildebrandt/OTeSources/23a-Prophets/Text/Articles/Bess-SonOfGod-GTJ.pdf

Now, I don’t expect you to actually rebut the above. After all, the reference above was written by a Professor of Old Testament and Hebrew. And, he’s interpreting the OT, a Hebrew scripture. The point is, to refute your repeated and fallacious statement that it’s “plain” and “simple”. It is anything but “plain” and “simple”.

I would love to actually hear a rebuttal to the referenced Professor, but realize that’s likely beyond the abilities of any member here, including myself.

Another question Sloth. Since it’s so “plain”. Do you deny the doctrine of the Trinity was developed in the third and fourth centuries by the Church? If it’s so plain, why would it require development (invention?) of a “doctrine” some 3-400 years after the death of Jesus? Didn’t you say it was “plain English”? Dick and Jane running down the hill? If it’s so plain, why would the Church need to develop a “doctrine”?

I’d like to hear your reply. Thanks.

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
The Islam link was interesting reading, although it appears to me that the Bible carries four views --(1) God and people are separate and often at odds, (2) God & Jesus are together but distinctly separate, (3) God & Jesus are One, and (4) God, Jesus and us are One. Perhaps this is the natural progression of the Jesus story…bringing the revelation of our own oneness (divinity) with God to fruition. Here are a few supporting scriptures that I didn’t see anyone post. (If they were previously posted, my apologies. I did scan this thread and didn’t see them).

John 10:30

‘I and my father are one.’ For context, let’s look at the complete passage starting with John 10:23, reads as follows: ‘And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon’s porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one.’

John 17:20-22

‘Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one.’

1 Corinthians 12:12-14

‘For as the (human) body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.’

Ephesians 4:4

‘There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.’

I’ll post a few more as I come across them…[/quote]

I guess my response got overlooked amidst the Cortes-BodyGuard bickering.

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:

I guess my response got overlooked amidst the Cortes-BodyGuard bickering.
[/quote]

LOL I didn’t miss it. And I’m not bickering. Cortes is just buzzing around my ear as usual. I didn’t respond b/c I really want to discuss the referenced scriptures because I find them very curious. I want to know more.

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Is it still really as easy as “dick and jane ran down the hill?” I think the Jews would disagree. [/quote]

I appreciate your civility, but I can’t reply in a way that wouldn’t insult you. This quote is a good example of keeping the goal posts moving. We started by accepting scripture as a basis for argumentation, “The divinity of Jesus is never mentioned in the bible.” Then when that is blown up–which it has been–we reach for the Jews, who don’t believe in the bible in the first place. If scripture is to be the accepted platform to kick off this discussion “Jesus’ divinity not mentioned in the bible,” then don’t drop it and pick it up, drop it and pick it up. It’s hard to see it as anything but as throwing out anything, no matter how unrelated, hoping something will stick. It’s insulting, intended or now.

Are we arguing that the bible never mentions the second person of God–the Word, the Son, per the Islamic link? Though it does. Or, that the bible is hogwash, and we won’t go by it even for argumentation’s sake? In that case, the existence of the Jews isn’t exactly ground breaking.

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Another question Sloth. Since it’s so “plain”. Do you deny the doctrine of the Trinity was developed in the third and fourth centuries by the Church? If it’s so plain, why would it require development (invention?) of a “doctrine” some 3-400 years after the death of Jesus? Didn’t you say it was “plain English”? Dick and Jane running down the hill? If it’s so plain, why would the Church need to develop a “doctrine”?

I’d like to hear your reply. Thanks. [/quote]

It required defending and teaching, thus doctrination. The three persons of the “trinity” (simply a word) are immortalized from the gospels up through the earliest christians.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Trinity.asp

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Is it still really as easy as “dick and jane ran down the hill?” I think the Jews would disagree. [/quote]

I appreciate your civility, but I can’t reply in a way that wouldn’t insult you. This quote is a good example of keeping the goal posts moving. We started by accepting scripture as a basis for argumentation, “The divinity of Jesus is never mentioned in the bible.” Then when that is blown up–which it has been–we reach for the Jews, who don’t believe in the bible in the first place. If scripture is to be the accepted platform to kick off this discussion “Jesus’ divinity not mentioned in the bible,” then don’t drop it and pick it up, drop it and pick it up. It’s hard to see it as anything but as throwing out anything, no matter how unrelated, hoping something will stick. It’s insulting, intended or now.

Are we arguing that the bible never mentions the second person of God–the Word, the Son, per the Islamic link? Though it does. Or, that the bible is hogwash, and we won’t go by it even for argumentation’s sake? In that case, the existence of the Jews isn’t exactly ground breaking.[/quote]

If you think I moved the goal post I’m not aware of it and it’s not intentional. I have repeatedly said I wanted to discuss the scriptures I referenced in the OP. If you can’t reply without an insult, that’s more a reflection upon your limited ability to reason than anything else. So by all means, either reply or insult. I don’t see the necessity for insults. We’re not in GAL or SAMA discussing some air headed topic.

Whoa, Jews “don’t believe in the Bible?!” Are you serious? Would you like to clarify that? Is not the OT part of the Bible???

And now you’re building a strawman. At least an insult would be transparent! A strawman is insidious. I never stated that the divinity of Jesus is not stated in the Bible. I kept coming back to wanting to discuss the apparent plain english meaning of the referenced scriptures. Isn’t that the same appeal you made to me? “plain”, “english”?

Insulting? No. Insulting it was you intended to do if you continued posting. I’m not dropping or picking anything up. Why can’t I response to a post? And why would a centuries old debate need be “insulting”?

Finally, to answer your closing statement, I think I’ve been pretty clear that I reject the words and doctrines of corruptible men and institutions. I have not provided any personal opinion about the bible per se. As for references to the “word” that’s not the issue and you know it. It’s whether the word, God, and “son of god” refer to Jesus. I think we pretty much established that’s an interpretation issue…no?

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Another question Sloth. Since it’s so “plain”. Do you deny the doctrine of the Trinity was developed in the third and fourth centuries by the Church? If it’s so plain, why would it require development (invention?) of a “doctrine” some 3-400 years after the death of Jesus? Didn’t you say it was “plain English”? Dick and Jane running down the hill? If it’s so plain, why would the Church need to develop a “doctrine”?

I’d like to hear your reply. Thanks. [/quote]

It required defending and teaching, thus doctrination. The three persons of the “trinity” (simply a word) are immortalized from the gospels up through the earliest christians.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Trinity.asp[/quote]

Okay, but you do realize that there is reasoned opposition to this “doctrine” “taught” by the Catholic Church. And I’m not sure why “plain” “English” (a fallacy because what you’re reading, as you know, is a translation of Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic) would require “defending”. Is there a scriptural reference supporting the doctrine of the trinity as taught?

I think we can safely conclude that all these things are issues of “interpretation”. If that is indeed the case, then yes, further discussion would be futile and we can end thread. As I stated in the beginning, I was looking for illumination as to the referenced scriptures - I did not wish to revisit the age old debate of the Muslims, Jews and Christians. It’s just not that interesting, and always ends (sooner or later) with someone like you on the verge of insulting someone or happily and lustfully crossing the line like Cortes.

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Whoa, Jews “don’t believe in the Bible?!” Are you serious? Would you like to clarify that? Is not the OT part of the Bible???[/quote]

No, because I can read. It’s not meant to be an insult, but the truth of it. I can follow a simple passage. I’ll repost the most meaty parts.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God.

The Word is with God, and is God. Satisfies the seperated persons, yet one God idea. It is plain as writing can ever be. The Word is God. Now, the Word will take up the flesh of man and live among then. This is who John has been preparing the way for.

And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth.

The Word, earlier identified as God, now walking in the flesh of man, who John has been waiting for, is now clearly identified as the only Son of God (elsewhere, same passage, all men can be sons of God through him), and is full of grace and truth.

[b]John testified to him and cried out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘The one who is coming after me ranks ahead of me because he existed before me.’”

From his fullness we have all received, grace in place of grace, because while the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ[/b].

The ‘vehicle’ of grace and truth has now been identified twice, sperated by one sentence. This vehicle is the Word (God) in flesh dwelling among them, the only Son of the Father (God), Jesus. Completely and totally clear. This isn’t an issue for debate or ‘interpretation.’ It’s plainly stated.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Whoa, Jews “don’t believe in the Bible?!” Are you serious? Would you like to clarify that? Is not the OT part of the Bible???[/quote]

No, because I can read. It’s not meant to be an insult, but the truth of it. I can follow a simple passage. I’ll repost the most meaty parts.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God.

The Word is with God, and is God. Satisfies the seperated persons, yet one God idea. It is plain as writing can ever be. The Word is God. Now, the Word will take up the flesh of man and live among then. This is who John has been preparing the way for.

And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth.

The Word, earlier identified as God, now walking in the flesh of man, who John has been waiting for, is now clearly identified as the only Son of God (elsewhere, same passage, all men can be sons of God through him), and is full of grace and truth.

[b]John testified to him and cried out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘The one who is coming after me ranks ahead of me because he existed before me.’”

From his fullness we have all received, grace in place of grace, because while the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ[/b].

The ‘vehicle’ of grace and truth has now been identified twice, sperated by one sentence. This vehicle is the Word (God) in flesh dwelling among them, the only Son of the Father (God), Jesus. Completely and totally clear. This isn’t an issue for debate or ‘interpretation.’ It’s plainly stated.

[/quote]

Okay sloth. Let’s just ignore the fact that these passages are written in anything but English. I see you didn’t read the link I provided. It’s not quite that simple and there is no debate as to that. You didn’t even read the link, because I actually threw you a bone, while simply illustrating the complexity of the translation from old Hebrew. If you had reviewed it, you would have come back here and pointed out that the post doesn’t necessarily support my perceived view point (emphasis perceived).

Okay Sloth. The bible was written in English. It is plain. There is no debate. Does that about sum it up? What the heck is wrong with all those Jews, Muslims, religious scholars, et als. It is all just so clear! It’s in PLAIN ENGLISH! Anyway, sincerely thanks for your viewpoint but I’m not going to pretend you didn’t just reiterate dogma to me. I do appreciate your strained civility though.

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:
Trying to apply “logical and compelling” to Christianity?

Good luck with that. [/quote]

Or Islam. Or any other religion.

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
I’m not sure I’m looking to deconstruct the above, because I was seeking illumination of the REFERENCED SCRIPTURES. However, the “Word” was in use prior to the NT and John. It is connected to the “messiah” or even “son of God”, but does not reference “Jesus” by that proper name.[/quote]

Then why was it that almost every first born son, during the time of Jesus, was named Yeshua? They knew the name of the Lord to come. They knew a messiah was supposed to be coming. They just didn’t expect the one they got.

Of course not, their books tell them they wouldn’t. Big surprise? No.

Jesus is Jewish, so are the Apostles, so are the early Catholics (or Christians), so is Paul. The early Church is considered to be Hellenistic Jews, a group formed before Jesus’ time about 50 years before. They wanted to spread Judaism to the rest of the world. However, you had nationalist and exclusionary Jews who the Christians gave up the title of Jew to because they didn’t want to be associated with the Jews (they were so exclusionary to the point of writing on their own floor in their temple that anyone that shares their secret is cursed), as well they had a heavy population of Gentiles entering the Church and just dismissed the name. However, Catholicism is still an extension and fuller revelation of Judaism. Even Jews today can go to a Catholic Mass and recognize the Jewish ceremonies and architecture within the Catholic Mass.

The Jews didn’t even have a canon of their own, they have and do dismiss books at their own will. Except the first five books, which I haven’t heard of a Jew dismiss those.

Jesus and the apostles read from a manuscript called the Septuagint (or possibly the H80, I do not recall), not what we have now which is the MT. The Jews early on (after Jesus) retranslated the Hebrew bible (MT manuscript) and tried to declare that any book that isn’t in Hebrew isn’t inspired by G-d, which included seven of the OT books and all of the NT. Their efforts are to be excluded, as they are lacking ultimately in the ability to interpret and teach the Bible.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Their efforts are to be excluded, as they are lacking ultimately in the ability to interpret and teach the Bible.[/quote]

Well, I guess that settles it then. Brilliant! Thanks :slight_smile:

End thread. Thread was a bad idea. I can admit it.

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Jesus was repeatedly distinguished from the Father in “language that a 3rd grader could follow, even”. [/quote]

Why wouldn’t he be? The trinity IS a trinity, not a mono-personality. A distinction drawn between the persons, and the ‘roles,’ is just as much a part of the trinity as the ‘One-God’ aspect. In the first place, I’m not sure even how these, distinctions, is supposed to be a challenge to Christianity, which flatly proclaims a triune God. What they didn’t tackle, and hoped noone would bring up, is that scripture flat out identifies the Word as being with God, while also being God, from the beginning. It flat out states that the only Son of God (through whom we can be sons of God. Also in the above passage), is also God—last line of the above passage. Scripture positively identifies seperated personalities/persons of a one God, in my passage.[/quote]

Well, you’re back to appealing to the authority of the Catholic Church aren’t you? Or can you provide clear biblical evidence for the concept of the “trinity” as taught by the Catholic Church? Is it your position there is no debate about the trinity either? For the record, there are “oneness” and “trinitarian” theologists.

Another simple search, another well reasoned rebuttal:

http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a40.htm

Is it still really as easy as “dick and jane ran down the hill?” I think the Jews would disagree. [/quote]

Jews don’t hold the NT or seven of the OT and sometimes even more of the OT as divinely inspired, why would that matter. They just dismiss it, no argument is needed.

Here is a list of what early Christians before the Bible was canonized said on the subject:

A little Scripture:

"See, in short you have it that the Father is one, the Son another, and the Holy Spirit another; in Person, each is other, but in nature they are not other. In this regard he says: â??The Father and I, we are oneâ?? (John 10:30). He teaches us that one refers to their nature, and we are to their Persons. In like manner it is said: â??There are three who bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit; and these three are oneâ?? (1 John 5:7).

As well “in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost.”

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Another question Sloth. Since it’s so “plain”. Do you deny the doctrine of the Trinity was developed in the third and fourth centuries by the Church? If it’s so plain, why would it require development (invention?) of a “doctrine” some 3-400 years after the death of Jesus? Didn’t you say it was “plain English”? Dick and Jane running down the hill? If it’s so plain, why would the Church need to develop a “doctrine”?

I’d like to hear your reply. Thanks. [/quote]

Because people twist the scriptures. It was clear when Jesus taught it.