[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
I have not once attacked you and any claims at fallaciousness are flimsy at best. My dialog up to this point has been about as fallacious as anything Socrates said or Plato wrote.
Anyway, since you have been so persistent in my coming to the point, I will indulge you:
Your claim to recognition of the “good” is about as good as any other person’s, religious or otherwise. It is certainly not “better” than any religion’s, and I would wager that, although you appear to imply that you reach your conclusions due to or with the help of a divine spark (Holy Spirit, God, whatever), I would contest your implication that it is innate, and would challenge you to refute that you’ve not just borrowed your “good” wholesale from the religions of the world.
The reason that the arc of the dialog appeared to go off track is probably because I cannot see any way that you can possibly separate “good” and “moral,” without twisting logic into pretzels. Far from splitting hairs, it is the essence of my point: There is no difference in what is absolutely good and what is moral. Labeling morality as relative is a fallacy on its face, anyway, as to have a discussion of morality in the first place, you still have to judge that morality by some standard. And if said standard is anything other than timeless, immutable, and concrete, it ceases to be a standard.
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Well, I’ll first say that maybe you should choose another “standard” by which to judge because “morality” isn’t it. I didn’t make up relative morality and some of our greatest philosophers have pondered such and found it to be true. You may want morality to be timeless, but it’s not. It’s not even universal at this exact moment. Morality is intrinsic to culture and diversity of culture and custom abounds on this globe. I’m not going to continue to debate “values” v. “morals” because it’s not the point of this thread and it has nothing to do with my point. Start a thread about it and debate it to your heart is content. It’s not a bad topic.
Now, back to my point:
I have already stated that I believe in that COMMON truth expressed in all religions throughout time. I’ve said this on more than one occasion. Take any of them, remove myth, fantasy, exaggeration, allegory, transliteration, mistakes, lies, inventions, etc. (in other words, all the acts of man) and all our religions have a common theme and for me, therein lies the “truth”.
As for you assertion that I have “borrowed” my sense of “good” from those religions is incorrect. I know good when I see it. I can feel it in the deepest part of my being. But I appreciate you telling me from Japan, over the internet, with the benefit of a few posts, where my sense of “good” comes from.
Did you really come here to quibble with me about where or how I feel what I feel? To torture the difference between morality and values? You say you had a point. What was it? What’s the point other than the fact that when I post, you seem to mysteriously appear and muddy the water? Is this like the “stalking” you accused me of when for the 2nd time in my entire history on T-Nation I disagreed with your buddy Pat on the matter of physics by simply uttering “stop it”?
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I have said multiple times now that you know what you can do if you don’t want to keep up this line of conversation with me. So stop it. 
No, the point was that no man is an island. I have a very hard time believing you or anyone arrived at their conclusions of right and wrong minus the influence of thousands of years of history, philosophy, religion, culture, society, and that of your family, knowledge base, experience, peer group, biases, influences, insecurities, the things you’ve been taught and told by elders, teachers, peers, enemies, the media and a host of other influences too numerous to list.
What you feel in the deepest part of your being may or may not be the moving of the Holy Spirit or what have you within you (I actually do hope that it is). However, history has shown us that there are many, many men who have either ignored or not possessed this feeling. What is it that distinguishes you from others? Or do you distinguish yourself from others?
We keep going back and forth. Watch. [/quote]
Finally, you have reached a “point”. If I understand your position correctly, you are stating “no man is an island” - and as such, any understanding that I believe I have of “good” must come from custom, religion, philosophy, etc. I disagree.
I will start my rebuttal to your “point” with…SCRIPTURE! Yes, me of all people quoting scripture:
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, �¢??Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. �¢??Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."
(Matthew 18:2-6 ESV)
I don’t know what this means to you, but I’ll tell how it resonates with me. Ever have contact with small children in any meaningful way, particularly a group of small children? 5 year-old children perhaps? If you have, what do you notice? Let me tell you what I notice; A complete lack of prejudice and hatred. What do you find? Open hearts.
I had a discussion with someone very recently who has become very important to me and we are planning a future. You know what we discussed? Can we love each other as a 5 year old? What does that mean? To love (and communicate that love) without the accumulated social and emotional baggage of an adult. Absent having ever been hurt and the “Alpha” appeal to men everywhere that “he who cares less wins” and all other permutations of such bullshit.
God is often described as love. Jesus taught a message of LOVE. No one loves like a 5 year old and the child did not need any of the social constructs you mention. The child was born with an open heart and the capacity to love without restriction. The 5 year old is not versed in religion, customs, socials structures, philosophy, or any of the other things you mention. Yes, the 5 year old will sometimes be selfish, unruly, etc. - in other words, they will be and act 5, but that’s exactly a reflection of how they do not have our adult constructs yet ingrained in them (and thus in large measure spoiling their innocence). But they need no such adult constructs you mention to understand and give LOVE. They are loved by their parents and they love the world in return.
The heart of a 5 year old is indeed an island. It is open to love and be loved, without restriction. They don’t know African American from European, Catholic from Protestant, Jew from Muslim, barely male from female - but they do know love.
I disagree with you Cortes. I intrinsically know good from evil. All the constructs “off the island” you mentioned taught me how to hate or restrict my love. [/quote]
I own an English school for kids here in Japan and teach kids for a living, as well as having my own son, and I completely do understand this.
Meh, it’s cool. I completely disagree with you probably most of the time, but I can’t really argue with the above. Take care and good luck to you.
