JB and Others: Egypt and the Army

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]NorCal916 wrote:

You guys sure like to make a lot of assumptions with very little facts.

And Mr. Jewbacca… are you Jewish? I hope so. If not, curious choice of a username. Do you live in America? Well, I would guess that if you took a walk as a Jewish man on the South-side of Chicago you Sir would get “Ass-Raped” and then shot with a handgun and robbed of your wallet. Fair enough? Control the murders in Chicago before you look down your nose at the violence in Egypt. [/quote]

The irony of these two statements is delicious.

Jewbacca is indeed Jewish. And a soldier in the Israel Defense Forces. Just a guess, but I think he may know a bit more about violence, and about Egypt, than you do.[/quote]

And you forgot former trial lawyer :).[/quote]

Whose wife and unborn child were murdered by a suicide “freedom fighter” bomber.[/quote]

I didn’t know that. I do not know the man, that’s why I asked. He obviously appears well informed of the region. My heart goes out to him for his tragic loss.

[quote]NorCal916 wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]NorCal916 wrote:

You guys sure like to make a lot of assumptions with very little facts.

And Mr. Jewbacca… are you Jewish? I hope so. If not, curious choice of a username. Do you live in America? Well, I would guess that if you took a walk as a Jewish man on the South-side of Chicago you Sir would get “Ass-Raped” and then shot with a handgun and robbed of your wallet. Fair enough? Control the murders in Chicago before you look down your nose at the violence in Egypt. [/quote]

The irony of these two statements is delicious.

Jewbacca is indeed Jewish. And a soldier in the Israel Defense Forces. Just a guess, but I think he may know a bit more about violence, and about Egypt, than you do.[/quote]

And you forgot former trial lawyer :).[/quote]

Whose wife and unborn child were murdered by a suicide “freedom fighter” bomber.[/quote]

I didn’t know that. I do not know the man, that’s why I asked. He obviously appears well informed of the region. My heart goes out to him for his tragic loss.
[/quote]

Yeah, that was one of the harder things I’ve ever heard described on here. It was…not pretty. And he has a vast amount of respect from me for not being completely shattered and embittered by it. Not that I or anyone would ever be able to blame him if that had been the case; that would be more than has wrecked many strong men’s spirits in the past. But he rebuilt himself.

But regardless of whether you agree with him or disagree on various topics of discussion, he is always studiously well read and well informed.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]NorCal916 wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]NorCal916 wrote:

You guys sure like to make a lot of assumptions with very little facts.

And Mr. Jewbacca… are you Jewish? I hope so. If not, curious choice of a username. Do you live in America? Well, I would guess that if you took a walk as a Jewish man on the South-side of Chicago you Sir would get “Ass-Raped” and then shot with a handgun and robbed of your wallet. Fair enough? Control the murders in Chicago before you look down your nose at the violence in Egypt. [/quote]

The irony of these two statements is delicious.

Jewbacca is indeed Jewish. And a soldier in the Israel Defense Forces. Just a guess, but I think he may know a bit more about violence, and about Egypt, than you do.[/quote]

And you forgot former trial lawyer :).[/quote]

Whose wife and unborn child were murdered by a suicide “freedom fighter” bomber.[/quote]

I didn’t know that. I do not know the man, that’s why I asked. He obviously appears well informed of the region. My heart goes out to him for his tragic loss.
[/quote]

Yeah, that was one of the harder things I’ve ever heard described on here. It was…not pretty. And he has a vast amount of respect from me for not being completely shattered and embittered by it. Not that I or anyone would ever be able to blame him if that had been the case; that would be more than has wrecked many strong men’s spirits in the past. But he rebuilt himself.

But regardless of whether you agree with him or disagree on various topics of discussion, he is always studiously well read and well informed.[/quote]

JEWBACCA FOR CONGRESS!!!

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

Nah. That’s the line for the masses.

[/quote]
That’s actually what concerns me. 80% of Egyptians under 30 are unemployed, their economy is declining rapidly and they have no oil reserves to speak of.

I’ve heard this before and I’m inclined to agree. My problem is historical precedent and seeing patterns in history. When the French revolutionary armies were utterly destroyed, without shoes, clothing, pay, food (Napoleon’s troops in Italy were literally starving) and using a handful of mentally unstable revolutionary shock troops to try to keep Paris “free,” along came one Napoleon who turned things around rapidly. When In fighting amongst Roman generals who were attempted to seize dictatorial control of Rome(not for the first time of course) along came one Julius Caesar. When Germany was utterly annihilated im WWI within a generation they became the most fearsome force in Europe that took over every country anyone in Europe had even heard of in a couple of years.

Also, I have heard it said by Jewish soldiers of WWI that German troops would never engage in genocide. Jewish troops suffered the highest per capita causaulties in WWI BTW, German troops were sophisticated. All that changed rapidly. The old Prussian military became a revolutionary, genocidal force in a very short time. Sure their were a few old school who had to be taken care of but the bulk changed with the tims in a very short time.

Many examples abound. Always they require a single leader of exceptional talent. Morsi is clearly not that leader. However, the current disposition of the Egyptian Army does little to assuage my deep concerns. I really hope you’re right though.

Amongst other things stressed by Napoleon, Clauzewitz and Jomini was the paramount importance of enemy morale, psychological warfare and audacity. Operation Sea Lion(invaasion of Britain by Nazi Germany beginning with their attempt to gain air superiority in the British Isles was NOT intended as a prelude to invasion. THe Germans KNEW they had no landing craft and no possible means of passing the Royal Navy in the narrow British channel. They also knew their bombers could not reach vital industrial complexes in Britain and pass the Dowding defense system.

It was an entirely pyschological operation aimed at forcing the British(through fear) to enter into peace negotiations with Nazi Germany. Churchill’s answer was legendary. And he was right that never in the field of human conflict had so much depended on so few.

Whilst no military man I would’ve thought that the Germans breaking through France to the West cutting allied forces in half was not necessarily a strategic disadvantage at all. The advantage of the central position comes into play - a position used by Napoleon on countless occasions. But the French in particular were eager to sue for peace and British Expeditionary Force was tiny in comparison and needed to defend their own Isle - the last free country in Europe.

Read some of the well known cynical and disturbing quotes of Caesar, Napoleon and Adolf Hitler if you haven’t already,) God help us all if the “right” man comes along and bends luck to his will… Very disturbing. Very relevant to the Arab uprisings.

Rant over.

SexMachine, I am impressed. This sounds like an argument I would make.

You’re absolutely right, every revolutionary army throughout history has, once seizing political power, almost without hesitation gone on to consolidate and increase their territorial gains, rallying behind a charismatic leader under the banner of “liberty” or “equality” or “glory” or some such. We could add Alexander, Genghis, Lenin and Mao to your list, and arguably, perhaps even Andrew Jackson, too.

You’re another one who might enjoy Fates of Nations by Paul Colinvaux. He borrows heavily from Toynbee, Fuller and Creasey, but the work does not suffer from this fact.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
SexMachine, I am impressed. This sounds like an argument I would make.

You’re absolutely right, every revolutionary army throughout history has, once seizing political power, almost without hesitation gone on to consolidate and increase their territorial gains, rallying behind a charismatic leader under the banner of “liberty” or “equality” or “glory” or some such. We could add Alexander, Genghis, Lenin and Mao to your list, and arguably, perhaps even Andrew Jackson, too.

You’re another one who might enjoy Fates of Nations by Paul Colinvaux. He borrows heavily from Toynbee, Fuller and Creasey, but the work does not suffer from this fact. [/quote]

I will seek it out now thanks.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
SexMachine, I am impressed. This sounds like an argument I would make.

You’re absolutely right, every revolutionary army throughout history has, once seizing political power, almost without hesitation gone on to consolidate and increase their territorial gains, rallying behind a charismatic leader under the banner of “liberty” or “equality” or “glory” or some such. We could add Alexander, Genghis, Lenin and Mao to your list, and arguably, perhaps even Andrew Jackson, too.

[/quote]

Definitely Alexander although his father Philip II of Macedon did much of the work reorganising his army. When Philip was assassinated(I believe there is compelling evidence it was organised by Alexander and his mother Cleopatra,) it took the sacking of Thebes to convince the rest of Greece to join his(Alexander’s) expeditionary force. Also, Philip learned his tactics from one Epaminondas. Sorry if you already know all this. But for others, the use of the highly disiplined phalanx and its new tactics largely helped turn the tables.

The phalanax formation under Philip and Alexander used spears that were up to 21 feet long. Using wedge formations initially for attack, Epaminondas deserves the credit for the oblique order of advance used right up until the American Civil War. Frederick the Great used it famously at the battle of Hohenfriedberg(love that song.)

PS forgive my numerous typos in my first post.

Indeed.

“Alexander had inherited his splendid army, with its deadly phalanx, from his father, and from his father’s generation. Because he was a clever young man with the wit to use what was given him we must not forget that others forged his instrument. Nor must we forget that it was the instrument that won the war. The Greeks and Macedonians who followed Alexander did not conquer because they were braver than the people they thrust down. All people are brave. Nor did they win primarily because they had he better general, though they did have that. They won because they had better weapons and technique.”

From Fates of Nations

Colinvaux does also give Epaminondas the proper credit for inventing the tactical maneuver that finally managed to break the Spartan line (something that even JFC Fuller fails to mention in his Decisive Battles, if I recall correctly), but yes, it was Philip who first armed the infantry with the sarissa, and armored the entire phalanx for the purpose of punching through the enemy formation.

But yes, by all means find the book. He draws some very interesting parallels across timelines, not only regarding military strategy and technology, but also the rise and fall of civilizations. The difference is that he approaches it as a biologist, not merely as a historian.

I will. And if you haven’t already, check out Theodore Ayrault Dodge and his works on Alexander, Hannibal and Caesar in particular. A little out dated but this guy did an incredible amount of research and his works were used as textbooks at Westpoint until quite recently. He was also a Civil War vet(lost a leg at Gettysburg) so understood tactics and wrote from a soldier’s perspective. After the war he spent the rest of his life traveling the famous battlefields of the world. Unfortunately he died before he finished his biography of Frederick the Great.