One thing is for sure…
There is NO neutrality when it comes to Fonda…
Mufasa
I heard a few interviews she did. One on 60 minutes and one on the radio.
To summarize she is basically sorry that people resented the photo so much. She apologized for being thoughtless and then proceeded to list the reasons why her actions were justified. IT was a hollow apology.
Second as to her association with John Kerry she said he was a “beacon” on the 60’s for those who opposed the war. She said you could tell he would be a great leader when she heard him speak back then.
My two cents. She committed treason. She should have prevented from returning to the country and if she made it in she should have been tried for treason. It was wartime and those “freedom fighters” were aiming that gun at US planes. What a whore.
I don’t think you can put a limitation on that. Hell we still deport Nazi’s and Hanoi Jane is just as bad.
“[quote]Moriarty wrote:
One would expect it to be more damning, considering it’s fake. Why would the press cover a fake photo?”
I’m sorry, would you educate me on this point. I’ve never seen that particular photo. Does anyone have any proof that it was faked?
Or is this just another, "Hi, I’m a liberal. I don’t mind if I forge National Guard documents, but any damning photo of my candidate must be faked!!!
“And how is the second photo at all “telling”? What does it tell you? That Jane Fonda and John Kerry were once at the same place and didn’t address each other at all. What a shocking revelation!”
So he “just happened to be there?” HMMMMMMM… How do you know they didn’t speak? Didn’t H. Jane refer to Kerry as an up and coming leader?
Anyone want to place odds that they didn’t know each other?
Oh, if I catch you at a Klu Klux Klan meeting directly behind the head clansman, I’ll just go ahead and assume it was a coincidence.
“But then again you are a conservative, so it’s expected that you believe unsubstantiated propaganda, lie,”
Like the forged CBS papers, “I did not have sexual relations with that woman…,” “Hey, that wasn’t an aspirin factory” or “Hey, I pardoned Mark Rich because he was a good guy, not because I was massively bribed.”
Is that the sort of lies and propaganda that you are talking about?
“and are altogether illogical.”
You mean like Saddam attacking two of his neighbors within eleven years, supporting terrorists, lying to the international community, murdering civilians, might make him a threat to humanity.
If that is illogical, then you can keep your “logic.”
“You’re excused.”
Thanks!!!
JeffR
Sorry wanted to repost:
“Moriarty wrote:
One would expect it to be more damning, considering it’s fake. Why would the press cover a fake photo?”
I’m sorry, would you educate me on this point. I’ve never seen that particular photo. Does anyone have any proof that it was faked?
Or is this just another, "Hi, I’m a liberal. I don’t mind if I forge National Guard documents, but any damning photo of my candidate must be faked!!!
“And how is the second photo at all “telling”? What does it tell you? That Jane Fonda and John Kerry were once at the same place and didn’t address each other at all. What a shocking revelation!”
So he “just happened to be there?” HMMMMMMM… How do you know they didn’t speak? Didn’t H. Jane refer to Kerry as an up and coming leader?
Anyone want to place odds that they didn’t know each other?
Oh, if I catch you at a Klu Klux Klan meeting directly behind the head clansman, I’ll just go ahead and assume it was a coincidence.
“But then again you are a conservative, so it’s expected that you believe unsubstantiated propaganda, lie,”
Like the forged CBS papers, “I did not have sexual relations with that woman…,” “Hey, that wasn’t an aspirin factory” or “Hey, I pardoned Mark Rich because he was a good guy, not because I was massively bribed.”
Is that the sort of lies and propaganda that you are talking about?
“and are altogether illogical.”
You mean like Saddam attacking two of his neighbors within eleven years, supporting terrorists, lying to the international community, murdering civilians, might make him a threat to humanity.
If that is illogical, then you can keep your “logic.”
“You’re excused.”
Thanks!!!
JeffR
[quote]JeffR wrote:
I’m sorry, would you educate me on this point. I’ve never seen that particular photo. Does anyone have any proof that it was faked?
[/quote]
The posted link provides pretty conclusive proof, including providing the originals of the two photos that were stitched together to create the fake.
Nope, not one of those. Actually check out the link, proof is all there. And I do mind the forged NG docs, very much (but then again I’m not a liberal).
Forged NG docs, forged photos, forged documents that state Iraq possessed nuclear materials…all bad to me.
She says they didn’t speak, but really even if they did it doesn’t matter. I mean the “he spoke to a bad person once so he is too!” argument kinda sounds like what a “liberal” would present, doesn’t it?
Oh and about the up and coming leader thing, apparently she was RIGHT ON THE MONEY considering he is a representitive of our federal government was was just nominated as a candidate to be President of said government. That’s obvious, right?
Again with the “he knew a bad person” argument. Are you sure you aren’t really a misplaced liberal?
Oh and there’s a major difference between a KKK meeting and an anti-war rally. I would think that it is pretty radical to say there is something wrong with being at an anti-war rally. But I think you know that and were just trying to make one of those “liberal” type arguments. I mean that’s what liberals do, right?
As an aside, would it even matter if Jane Fonda were there or not if it were a KKK meeting?
That is exactly the sort of lies and propganda I’m talking about.
No I meant like, “Jane Fonda is a traitor, she was at a rally that John Kerry also attended, therefore John Kerry is ‘damned’”
Or
“John Kerry is damned because Jane Fonda said he was an up and coming leader”
Or
“George Bush gave a speech at an institution that banned inter-racial dating, therefore he is a racist.”
Not logical.
Looks like a case of “My bullshit smells better than yours because it’s spinning in a different direction”.
Thanks!!!
[quote]Moriarty wrote:
JeffR wrote:
I’m sorry, would you educate me on this point. I’ve never seen that particular photo. Does anyone have any proof that it was faked?
The posted link provides pretty conclusive proof, including providing the originals of the two photos that were stitched together to create the fake.
Or is this just another, "Hi, I’m a liberal. I don’t mind if I forge National Guard documents, but any damning photo of my candidate must be faked!!!
Nope, not one of those. Actually check out the link, proof is all there. And I do mind the forged NG docs, very much (but then again I’m not a liberal).
Forged NG docs, forged photos, forged documents that state Iraq possessed nuclear materials…all bad to me.
“And how is the second photo at all “telling”? What does it tell you? That Jane Fonda and John Kerry were once at the same place and didn’t address each other at all. What a shocking revelation!”
So he “just happened to be there?” HMMMMMMM… How do you know they didn’t speak? Didn’t H. Jane refer to Kerry as an up and coming leader?
She says they didn’t speak, but really even if they did it doesn’t matter. I mean the “he spoke to a bad person once so he is too!” argument kinda sounds like what a “liberal” would present, doesn’t it?
Oh and about the up and coming leader thing, apparently she was RIGHT ON THE MONEY considering he is a representitive of our federal government was was just nominated as a candidate to be President of said government. That’s obvious, right?
Anyone want to place odds that they didn’t know each other?
Oh, if I catch you at a Klu Klux Klan meeting directly behind the head clansman, I’ll just go ahead and assume it was a coincidence.
Again with the “he knew a bad person” argument. Are you sure you aren’t really a misplaced liberal?
Oh and there’s a major difference between a KKK meeting and an anti-war rally. I would think that it is pretty radical to say there is something wrong with being at an anti-war rally. But I think you know that and were just trying to make one of those “liberal” type arguments. I mean that’s what liberals do, right?
As an aside, would it even matter if Jane Fonda were there or not if it were a KKK meeting?
“But then again you are a conservative, so it’s expected that you believe unsubstantiated propaganda, lie,”
Like the forged CBS papers, “I did not have sexual relations with that woman…,” “Hey, that wasn’t an aspirin factory” or “Hey, I pardoned Mark Rich because he was a good guy, not because I was massively bribed.”
Is that the sort of lies and propaganda that you are talking about?
That is exactly the sort of lies and propganda I’m talking about.
“and are altogether illogical.”
You mean like Saddam attacking two of his neighbors within eleven years, supporting terrorists, lying to the international community, murdering civilians, might make him a threat to humanity.
No I meant like, “Jane Fonda is a traitor, she was at a rally that John Kerry also attended, therefore John Kerry is ‘damned’”
Or
“John Kerry is damned because Jane Fonda said he was an up and coming leader”
Or
“George Bush gave a speech at an institution that banned inter-racial dating, therefore he is a racist.”
Not logical.
Looks like a case of “My bullshit smells better than yours because it’s spinning in a different direction”.
Thanks!!![/quote]
She gave an interview yesterday.She said she knew Kerry and admired him. Said “we all did”.
She thought it was terrible of the Republicans to introduce that fact during the campaign. Hmmm wonder why she thought association with her was a terrible thing to do?
[quote]hedo wrote:
She gave an interview yesterday.She said she knew Kerry and admired him. Said “we all did”.
She thought it was terrible of the Republicans to introduce that fact during the campaign. Hmmm wonder why she thought association with her was a terrible thing to do?
[/quote]
Probably because she knew that a lot people don’t have the logical facilities to realize that it isn’t really relevant. That’s evidenced by this thread.
Are there people that think that because George Bush met with Ken Lay, or that because a local KKK leader said he admired Bush’s leadership, that George Bush is somehow “damned” by that? Of course. Are there people that think because Jane Fonda admired John Kerry’s leadership that he is somehow “damned”? Of course.
Oh yeah and John Kerry is tainted by Jane Fonda’s opinion that he was an up-and-coming leader. Give me a break.
In response to Mufasa’s comment, I am completely neutral about Jane Fonda. I really couldn’t care less about her (nor if John Kerry spoke to her, knew her, or slept with her). Actually most people I know feel the same way.
[quote]Moriarty wrote:
hedo wrote:
She gave an interview yesterday.She said she knew Kerry and admired him. Said “we all did”.
She thought it was terrible of the Republicans to introduce that fact during the campaign. Hmmm wonder why she thought association with her was a terrible thing to do?
Probably because she knew that a lot people don’t have the logical facilities to realize that it isn’t really relevant. That’s evidenced by this thread.
Are there people that think that because George Bush met with Ken Lay, or that because a local KKK leader said he admired Bush’s leadership, that George Bush is somehow “damned” by that? Of course. Are there people that think because Jane Fonda admired John Kerry’s leadership that he is somehow “damned”? Of course.
Oh yeah and John Kerry is tainted by Jane Fonda’s opinion that he was an up-and-coming leader. Give me a break.
In response to Mufasa’s comment, I am completely neutral about Jane Fonda. I really couldn’t care less about her (nor if John Kerry spoke to her, knew her, or slept with her). Actually most people I know feel the same way.[/quote]
Of course you and most people you know feel the same way. How else would they feel. Jane is one of the icons of the radical left.
Anyone with a sliver of patriotism that I know was repulsed by the photo of Hanoi Jane posing on an anti-aircraft gun with a group of enemy soldiers. The concept of enemy may be lost on you…it’s not to me.
Moriarity you’ll never get it but that’s no concern of mine. I hope you never realize what sacrafice the most basic grunt has to endure during a war. It’s a disgrace what she did. It’s even more of a statement that now her actions seemed justified to you and your friends. But you don’t know what you don’t know. I don’t know one vet who would ever forget that action she took…or forgive her for it.
If the mere association with a person is considered a “dirty trick”. Even a simple minded person would have to consider why.
It has to be very low stress being against everything. Kind of relieves the burden of actually standing for something doesn’t it?
[quote]hedo wrote:
Of course you and most people you know feel the same way. How else would they feel. Jane is one of the icons of the radical left.
[/quote]
I don’t follow, I said that Jane Fonda was treasonous and that I didn’t give a shit about her. What does your statement here mean? Did you actually read my posts?
Oh yeah I forgot, I said Jane Fonda was a traitor and that I didn’t give a shit about her, but since my post didn’t condemn John Kerry for knowing her I’m a member of the “radical left”. You’re a joke.
Again, I don’t follow. More overblown rhetoric. “You will never understand the true meaning of enemies and patriotism!!” I don’t remember saying anything about Jane Fonda except she was treasonous and that I didn’t give a shit about her. You have no idea how I feel about the photos, so why are you making up stuff?
Oh yeah, because that’s what you do.
Get what exactly? Did you even follow what I wrote? What does any of this have to do with the illogical conclusion that since Jane Fonda knew John Kerry that John Kerry was “damned”.
Seriously Hedo, you are odd. Most of the time your posts are good, but every once in a while you post something that suggests you didn’t even read what you’re replying to.
[quote]
I hope you never realize what sacrafice the most basic grunt has to endure during a war. It’s a disgrace what she did. It’s even more of a statement that now her actions seemed justified to you and your friends. But you don’t know what you don’t know. I don’t know one vet who would ever forget that action she took…or forgive her for it.
[quote]
What the hell are you talking about? I never said anything she did was justified. You’re kidding right? Or did you not read my post? I said I don’t give a shit about her. I think I also called her treasonous. Go back and re-read, then post your corrections, and apologizes as you feel appropriate.
I’ve already explained why. It’s a dirty trick because it’s a red herring. “Jane Fonda knows John Kerry therefore he is damned” is the same as “George Bush met with Ken Lay so Bush is damned”. Remember that, or did you not even read my post? See how I compared Jane Fonda with a Ken Lay, a known criminal? Does that analogy sound like I think Jane Fonda was “justified”?
I don’t even know what you’re talking about anymore. Seriously, read my post.
In Hedo’s world: “A lot of people don’t forgive Jane Fonda because they don’t forgive treason” = “Jane Fonda’s actions were justified”
[quote]hedo wrote:
…
[/quote]
Come to think of it…Hedo, weren’t you the one on an Iraq war thread that said I was smart when I said I felt that going to war with Iraq was justified, and then about 10 posts later turned around called me a radical leftist that opposes everything Bush does because I said the post-invasion operations were handled poorly?
Admit it, sometimes you quickly reply to threads without paying attention to who said what.
For the individual who claimed the photo of Jane Fonda sitting in the AA gun was faked:
“The image of Jane Fonda, Barbarella, Henry Fonda’s daughter…sitting on an enemy aircraft gun was a betrayal…It was the largest lapse of judgment that I can even imagine.” Jane Fonda, in the 60 Minutes interview → http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/31/60minutes/main684295.shtml
Wasn’t there a time not too long ago, in which treason was rewarded with a blindfold, a cigarette, and 5-riflemen pointed in your direction?
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I am not trying to irritate any of my conservative friends, but it might be time to leave the entire “Hanoi Jane” thing alone.
Okay, she went to North Vietnam and turned her back on the country, but that was 40 years ago!
Jimmy Carter pardoned all of the draft dodgers who fled to Canada, in 1977. He felt that 10 oh so years away from their families was enough punishment for escaping a controversial war. Exactly how long does Jane Fonda have to be punished for an indiscretion which took place 40 years ago when she was 23? Do some of you want to be held accountable when you are 63 for acts which took place when you were young and foolish? (which stage some of you are currently in).
Granted it was serious, but in all fairness it was a very controversial war. Now just because it was controversial does not give her or anyone else the right to act in traitorous ways. However, she has since apologized for her behavior (many times) and has done nothing even remotely similar since.
Come on guys even some murderers are freed after 25 years of hard time. I think it’s time for fair minded people to stop complaing about Jane Fonda![/quote]
Zeb, Hedo and his friends understand the true meaning of “enemies” and “partiotism”, which from your post here you will obviously never get (military drums pounding in the background).
Seriously though, this post didn’t get enough press. This is the most refreshing, even handed post I’ve ever seen you make Zeb. Quite refreshing indeed. Come on Vroom, admit it…Zeb wins “best post” on this thread.
She’s a old fucking bitch who thinks her shit doesn’t stink! She’s a no body trying to be a somebody. And she never became that somebody! All she ever was is a whore! The men really loved her for it. She’s a great whore! Damn, she did become someone after all! She became a fucking whore! Whore!
Jane Fonda is no more of a traitor for her actions in Vietnam than all of the American soldiers who served there - POWS included - are traitors for theirs.
Any American citizen has the perfect moral and Constitutional right to lend his support to a foreign cause of his choosing, be it manifested through his physical actions, vocality, or donations towards that cause. Having the government label a certain group of foreigners as the “enemy” does not, in fact, make them one’s enemy.
[quote]Al Shades wrote:
Jane Fonda is not a “traitor” for her actions in Vietnam. Any American citizen should be allowed to lend his support to a foreign cause of his choosing, be it physical, vocal, or financial. Having the government label a certain group of foreigners as the “enemy” does not, in fact, make them your enemy. [/quote]
Go find a Viet Nam vet that spent some time in the Hanoi Hilton, and say that to his face.
I gladly will the first chance I get, but I can tell you right now that it wouldn’t change a thing. As a pure objectivist, I am completely and irrevocably unsusceptible to all forms of sentimentalist persuasion. To accept any such arguments at face value would herald nothing less than a complete mental breakdown for me.
Treason is punishable by death.
'nuff said.
[quote]Moriarty wrote:
hedo wrote:
…
Come to think of it…Hedo, weren’t you the one on an Iraq war thread that said I was smart when I said I felt that going to war with Iraq was justified, and then about 10 posts later turned around called me a radical leftist that opposes everything Bush does because I said the post-invasion operations were handled poorly?
Admit it, sometimes you quickly reply to threads without paying attention to who said what.[/quote]
Moriarity
Your right I ususally ignore your posts to be quiet honest. Most of the time they seem a little to fringe to bother commenting on.
Sorry I missed your subtle nuance. I was responding to what you wrote.
Like you said…you and your friends don’t give a shit. That’s nice. Why waste so much time commenting on Jane then?
[quote]Al Shades wrote:
Jane Fonda is no more of a traitor for her actions in Vietnam than all of the American soldiers who served there - POWS included - are traitors for theirs.
Any American citizen has the perfect moral and Constitutional right to lend his support to a foreign cause of his choosing, be it manifested through his physical actions, vocality, or donations towards that cause. Having the government label a certain group of foreigners as the “enemy” does not, in fact, make them one’s enemy. [/quote]
Actually you misguided child, the government calling them enemy makes them the enemy. So does fighting a war against them. POW’s are not traitor’s. Al you are now officially over the top and meaningless in a political discussion. Comparing Jane Fonda and a POW is just childish jibberish.
Sure anyone can do whatever they want. Treason is punishable under the law. The US law, not the Harry Browne utopian laws.
Want to find a Vietnam Vet to make your argument too. Stop by a VFW. Your from Boston, there are several. Drive out to Braintree, there are several. Walk in, introduce yourself. Start a discussion with some of the vets.
Let us know how you make out? The internet is one thing. Face to face with someone is another. Make sure you tell them you are always right, you are all knowing and your wisdom is beyond compare or measure comparison too everyone else. After they stop laughing at you (not with you) read the first paragraph of your post to them.
Al Shades
04/09/05
01:28 AM
Massachusetts, USA
Jane Fonda is no more of a traitor for her actions in Vietnam than all of the American soldiers who served there - POWS included - are traitors for theirs.
That is one of the most detestable statements that I have ever read on this forum! You should hang your head for that one.