Jailing Reporters

e-hater,

That is not a personal attack.

You hate me and your name starts with e.

It’s a factual commentary!!!

I meant to add, e-hater, that clinton lied under oath to derail the sexual harassment suit filed by Paula Jones.

In this country (last time I looked) it isn’t ok to use police officials to pressure/escort employee’s into Governor’s office to solicit sex. Especially if the other party is unwilling.

I understand your need to look at the “blowjob” aspect only. As usual, if you looked at the whole picture, it would force you to change your views.

NOOOOO!!! One small piece only. One at a time. No broad picture!!!

Hear no evil, see no evil.

JeffR

marma,

Nice post!!!

I wanted to tell you that every person on the planet has bias.

As you adroitly pointed out, it doesn’t invalidate the argument.

If you read her law, you will find that Rove didn’t violate any of it.

Watch the dems squirm/morph this into Rove trying to pressure the press!!!

I love it!!! time magazine, no less.

It would be like me imploring lumpy to read Sean Hannity. Not going to happen.

JeffR

[quote] e-hater,

That is not a personal attack.

You hate me and your name starts with e.[/quote]

Jerffy, if I call you a clueless ass clown, it is not a personal attack, because you are clueless, you are an ass and you act like a clown.

I like your thinking.

Funny, other than that, it seems like you are acting like your hypocrite friends in decrying the behavior of others while indulging in it yourself.

Oh wait, you aren’t decrying this behavior, carry on.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
marma,

Nice post!!!

I wanted to tell you that every person on the planet has bias.

As you adroitly pointed out, it doesn’t invalidate the argument.

If you read her law, you will find that Rove didn’t violate any of it.

Watch the dems squirm/morph this into Rove trying to pressure the press!!!

I love it!!! time magazine, no less.

It would be like me imploring lumpy to read Sean Hannity. Not going to happen.
JeffR[/quote]

Toesing is as partisan as Wilson.

If Wilson is showing hackery on this then so is Toesing.

Novak outed Plame’s front company “Brewster-Jennings & Associates” after he outed Plame.

Why?

To protect the American people from what?

I know… I know… a dissenting opinion from someone who speaks from a position of knowledge!

[quote]nephorm wrote:
hedo wrote:
Calling BB…Calling BB !!

Lol, I actually was thinking of him. I wonder if there’s BB signal we can shine into the sky?[/quote]

It would have had to reach Italy… =-)

Anyway, let me read through the thread and see if I know anything about this at all…

This may or may not have been covered, as I haven’t swum through the entirety of the thread (merely skimmed), but Rove broke no law here – that’s Lanny Davis’ (remember him? former counsel to Clinton during the Lewinsky stuff…) opinion, and I’m inclined to think he is correct given what I know of the requirements of the law, especially regarding knowledge.

[quote]
vroom wrote:
They either need to be willing to sacrifice and do jail time or hold their tongue, or simply find a way to write their story without revealing something they shouldn’t.

Neither option sounds that difficult to me.

nephorm wrote:
These two reporters did not leak the information. I’ve read a couple of articles on this case, and I still have no idea why they’re being asked to reveal their sources. I don’t have time to research it further, but it seems like the questions are:

a) is it a lawful court order? The answer seems to be yes. But has the law been applied in good faith?
b) why did they ask these two particular reporters to expose their sources? is someone motivated to cripple their careers? (seems unlikely)
c) which is worth more for them… going to jail but being able to keep credibility (and thus work in the future), or obeying the rule of law?[/quote]

Two things to remember when thinking about the legality here.

  1. There is no journalistic privilege w/r/t keeping sources confidential, under either the 5th or the 1st Amendments. If they are subpoeaned and asked questions, they can be held in contempt of court for refusing to answer, irrespective of whether the question would involve their revealing sources.

  2. The court has very broad fact-finding power. If the judge allows the question as relevant, it is not a misapplication or a bad-faith application to require that question be answered.

Remember back to the Ken Starr investigations, when everyone made such a big deal about Susan McDougal and her being held in contempt for refusing to answer a question. That was completely proper – she had no privilege or right to not answer the question, which didn’t concern her own guilt or innocence (thus no 5th Amendment implications).

Overall I would agree – it’s difficult to tell what the prosecutor is trying to do here. It seems Rove is cooperating, and furnished information a long time ago. Further, it seems that Rove was confirming something, not that he was the primary source. The press is also implying the possibility of a 2nd Whitehouse source.

The attacks on Rove seem purely political at this juncture.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
This may or may not have been covered, as I haven’t swum through the entirety of the thread (merely skimmed), but Rove broke no law here – that’s Lanny Davis’ (remember him? former counsel to Clinton during the Lewinsky stuff…) opinion (he works two doors down from me), and I’m inclined to think he is correct given what I know of the requirements of the law, especially regarding knowledge.[/quote]

BB

It took me ten posts to say that…come on man billable hours :slight_smile:

Some excellent analysis of former Ambassador Joseph Wilson’s recent rantings, which impacts the overall Rove arguments swirling around here:

http://www.volokh.com/archives/archive_2005_07_10-2005_07_16.shtml#1121326634

Joseph Wilson to appear Thursday morning on TODAY show.

I see that Joseph Wilson is going to be interviewed on NBC?s TODAY show on Thursday morning. Given our adversarial press, this should be a wonderful opportunity for NBC reporters to get to the bottom of things. I would hope that they would ask Wilson questions about his complicity in his wife?s outing. If Wilson hadn?t lied to the press or the public about what he found in Niger ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39834-2004Jul9.html ), about how he was hired to go to Niger ( http://powerlineblog.com/archives/011014.php ), and about the Italian forged document ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39834-2004Jul9.html ), then there would have been no reason for people to try to correct the misimpressions he created and the lies he told.

As the Washington Post reported:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39834-2004Jul9.html

[i][Wilson’s reports to the CIA added to the evidence that Iraq may have tried to buy uranium in Niger, although officials at the State Department remained highly skeptical, the report said.

Wilson said that a former prime minister of Niger, Ibrahim Assane Mayaki, was unaware of any sales contract with Iraq, but said that in June 1999 a businessman approached him, insisting that he meet with an Iraqi delegation to discuss “expanding commercial relations” between Niger and Iraq ? which Mayaki interpreted to mean they wanted to discuss yellowcake sales. A report CIA officials drafted after debriefing Wilson said that "although the meeting took place, Mayaki let the matter drop due to UN sanctions on Iraq.][/i]

[[See 3D Update below for a sentence from the Washington Post that I deleted here because the Washington Post corrected it.]]

So[, although both Wilson and the CIA doubted it at the time,] Wilson had found [some] evidence that tended to confirm the substance of the sentence in Bush?s 2003 State of the Union address ( Briefing Room - The White House ): “The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.”

The bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee 2004 report exposed Wilson?s lies ( http://powerlineblog.com/archives/011014.php ) on what he found and told the CIA, as well as the one about how Wilson was hired.

Wilson said that his wife Valerie Plame had nothing to do with his being hired ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39834-2004Jul9.html ): “Valerie had nothing to do with the matter.” “She definitely had not proposed that I make the trip.” But the 2004 Senate Intelligence report said that she first suggested him for the trip and then followed up with a memo touting his suitability for the mission ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39834-2004Jul9.html ).

It would be great if NBC TODAY would probe Wilson on these matters. The Wall Street Journal ( Opinion & Reviews - Wall Street Journal ) says that Wilson had started lying ( http://powerlineblog.com/archives/011014.php ) to the press and public about how he was hired before his wife was outed, in part by Rove. Correcting this lie (were Plame not a covert agent) not only would be a smart partisan thing to do, but it would be the right thing to do ( Opinion & Reviews - Wall Street Journal ). Wilson was publicly lying about what he found in Niger, publicly lying about what he reported to the CIA, and (according to the WSJ http://powerlineblog.com/archives/011014.php ) publicly lying ( Opinion & Reviews - Wall Street Journal ) about how he was hired. Except for the “covert agent” issue, it would be right to correct all these lies ( Opinion & Reviews - Wall Street Journal ). Indeed, reporter Cooper?s email reveals that Rove was offering a “big warning” “not to get too far out on Wilson,” a warning that the press should have heeded but didn?t. They believed Wilson, only to find out that his account was untrue.

But it appears probable, though not certain, that Plame was a covert agent (the statutory definition ( http://foi.missouri.edu/bushinfopolicies/protection.html ) turns on whether she was on undercover missions outside the US in the 5 years before the disclosure of her identity, a factual issue that for some reason few outside of Powerline ( http://powerlineblog.com/archives/010989.php ) have focused on). The other reason that Plame may not have been a covert agent is that, according to bloggers quoting Andrea Mitchell, who was involved in NBC?s early stories on Wilson, it was widely known that Wilson?s wife worked for the CIA ( http://powerlineblog.com/archives/010989.php ). Yet if Plame was a “covert agent,” it would not be right or justified for Rove to expose Plame?s identity.

Here it would be good to ask Wilson whether he thought that by lying about what he found in Niger and what he told the CIA and how he was selected, he was gambling with his wife?s safety. How could he be sure that people would know that Plame was a covert agent, or that there was a law against revealing her identity? Perhaps someone might have reasonably believed that they were correcting misimpressions that Wilson himself had created. Did Wilson realize that he had put the Administration in something analogous to a Catch-22?: Wilson can lie about how he was hired but the Administration can?t correct his lie without outing his wife. Did Wilson consciously decide to gamble with his wife?s safety by lying in a way that would be hard for the Administration to correct? This is the line of questioning that I would most like NBC TODAY to explore (in a more respectful tone, of course).

One of the revelations of the Time Magazine Cooper email is that it gives the context of Rove?s disclosure that Wilson was suggested by his wife. The context strongly suggests that it wasn?t retaliation, but rather it was part of a discussion trying to correct any misimpressions of how Wilson was hired to do the mission. According to the Cooper email, Rove discussed whether the Director of the CIA or Vice President Cheney had authorized the trip.

So on the legal charge of intentional disclosure of Plame?s undercover identity ( http://powerlineblog.com/archives/010989.php ), there is nothing in the Cooper email to suggest the sort of knowledge by Rove necessary to convict under the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982 (50 U.S.C. 421 et seq.) ( http://foi.missouri.edu/bushinfopolicies/protection.html ). It punishes one who “intentionally discloses any information identifying such covert agent to any individual not authorized to receive classified information, knowing that the information disclosed so identifies such covert agent and that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such covert agent’s intelligence relationship to the United States . . .” It’s not even clear (beyond a reasonable doubt, no less) that Rove knew Plame’s name, knew that the information that he disclosed identified her, or knew that the US was taking affirmative steps to conceal her relationship to the intelligence community (if it was indeed doing so).

Of course, other evidence might be offered to show that Rove knew that he was contributing to the outing of an undercover CIA agent, rather than just explaining the context of the hiring of Wilson; but the Cooper email certainly doesn?t help the prosecutors in proving intent. The intent standard on this charge is particularly high, and will be hard for prosecutors to meet. For this reason, the country?s three leading newspapers?the Wall Street Journal ( http://powerlineblog.com/archives/011014.php ; Opinion & Reviews - Wall Street Journal ), the NY Times, and the Washington Post?have concluded that, by leaking, no crime was committed or they seriously doubt that any crime was committed.

But that doesn?t let either Rove or Bush off the hook entirely. I won?t go into the other evidence in part because I don?t know much about it, but the question whether Rove lied to Bush or the White House press office is still an open question (Rove was quoted as having said that he wasn?t involved, which if he really said this, appears to be a lie). If Rove lied to investigators, then he might be prosecuted for obstruction of justice or related claims.

And President Bush promised to fire the leaker. Although Bush could argue that, at the time he promised this, he assumed that the leaker had committed a crime by leaking (and now it appears that the leaker did not), this is a very hard case to make to the public and the press. It would seem that Bush must either fire Rove or break his promise (even though Bush may have a plausible argument that his promise was based on a false premise?that the leaker committed a crime by leaking).

Powerline ( http://powerlineblog.com/archives/011019.php ) has been particularly good ( http://powerlineblog.com/archives/011014.php ) on the Wilson-Plame story ( http://powerlineblog.com/archives/010917.php#010917 ) and the press?s failure to deal with the fact that Wilson?s account ( http://powerlineblog.com/archives/011014.php ) of his Niger investigation was false ( http://powerlineblog.com/archives/010989.php ). The WSJ has a strong editorial as well ( Opinion & Reviews - Wall Street Journal ). Yet we must not lose sight that there may be other lies that Rove told about non-involvement in outing Plame, and that Bush must deal with his promise to fire the leaker.

UPDATE: Justin Levine at Calblog catches Howard Kurtz trying to pretend that Wilson was telling the truth ( http://www.calblog.com/archives/004539.html ), and someone at the Post editing out some of the evidence against Wilson in one version of Kurtz’s story.

2D UPDATE: Well, something that looks like a Today Show transcript is up on MSNBC’s website, and its dateline is “Today show[,] Updated: 8:24 a.m. ET July 14, 2005.” MSN

The interview, conducted by Jamie Gangel, is an embarrassment. The hardest question asked is: “Your critics have said that this is partisan on your part, that you are part of a Democratic attempt to discredit Iraq policy.” Frankly, the question of bias is relevant only AFTER one determines if someone is telling the truth. If what Joe Wilson said were true, it wouldn’t matter that he was a Kerry supporter. The question of bias is meaningful only in trying to figure out WHY Wilson was wrong, not WHETHER Wilson was wrong. People often have partisan motives for doing the right thing or exposing lies–among other motives, such as the desire to be decent and honest.

3D UPDATE: NOTE: Obsidianwings points out ( Obsidian Wings: Minor Factual Point (Also Contains Open Thread) ) that the Washington Post story that I quoted from had been corrected to change “Iraq” to “Iran” in the following sentence: ?According to the former Niger mining minister, Wilson told his CIA contacts, Iraq tried to buy 400 tons of uranium in 1998.? I have accordingly updated, replacing this sentence with the first bracketed material above. Any necessary additions are shown in brackets.

Boston, I see it now, the whole series of errors made by the administration, and any repurcussions are all really Wilson’s fault.

Who knew he was orchestrating the whole run up to war and feeding false information to the government in an attempt to get the administration to start a war.

Wow.

Oh baby, those political machines are a rumbling. However, I can tell just by their volume that they are trying to drown out some important issues…

vroom,

The author of the post above is generally a liberal – law prof Jim Lindgren of Northwestern. He just happens to be a punctilious about facts and proper analysis. The key is getting to the facts, especially regarding all the political clap-trap concerning Rove.

Note the post does point out the open questions concerning Bush’s promise to fire the leaker, and leaves open the question of whether Rove lied to Bush/the White House. Note also that there are open questions that Lindgren’s post doesn’t address, most importantly the question of whether Rove “leaked” anything at all – if he was merely confirming, he wasn’t leaking new information (this of course would impact both the legal analysis and the political analysis concerning Bush’s “fire the leaker” statement).

Too many people jumping to too many conclusions, and not enough levelheaded analysis – To me it seems that the Dems are grasping at straws to try to get at the hated Karl Rove.

Interesting. And, of course, the fact this is being reported means that someone is breaking the law (I think - maybe it’s just a rule) regarding the secrecy of Rove’s grandy-jury testimony. And of course this begs the original question: Who told Novak?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/cia_leak_rove;_ylt=AsJDiqRUrIJdXl3tsCLIrpus0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

Rove: Novak Told Me CIA Agent’s Identity

By JOHN SOLOMON, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - Chief presidential adviser Karl Rove testified to a grand jury that he talked with two journalists before they divulged the identity of an undercover CIA officer but that he originally learned about the operative from the news media and not government sources, according to a person briefed on the testimony.

The person, who works in the legal profession and spoke only on condition of anonymity because of grand jury secrecy, told The Associated Press that Rove testified last year that he remembers specifically being told by columnist Robert Novak that Valerie Plame, the wife of a harsh Iraq war critic, worked for the CIA.

Rove testified that Novak originally called him the Tuesday before Plame’s identity was revealed in July 2003 to discuss another story.

The conversation eventually turned to Plame’s husband, Joseph Wilson, a former ambassador who was strongly criticizing the Bush administration’s use of faulty intelligence to justify the war in Iraq, the person said.

Rove testified that Novak told him he planned to report in a weekend column that Plame had worked for the CIA, and the circumstances on how her husband traveled to Africa to check bogus claims that Iraq was trying to buy nuclear materials in Niger, according to the source.

Novak’s column, citing two Bush administration officials, appeared six days later, touching off a political firestorm and leading to a federal criminal investigation into who leaked Plame’s undercover identity. That probe has ensnared presidential aides and reporters in a two-year legal battle.

Rove told the grand jury that by the time Novak had called him, he believes he had similar information about Wilson’s wife from another member of the news media but he could not recall which reporter had told him about it first, the person said.

When Novak inquired about Wilson’s wife working for the CIA, Rove indicated he had heard something like that, according to the source’s recounting of the grand jury testimony.

Rove told the grand jury that three days later, he had a phone conversation with Time magazine reporter Matt Cooper and ? in an effort to discredit some of Wilson’s allegations ? informally told Cooper that he believed Wilson’s wife worked for the CIA, though he never used her name, the source said.

An e-mail Cooper recently provided the grand jury shows Cooper reported to his magazine bosses that Rove had described Wilson’s wife in a confidential conversation as someone who “apparently works” at the CIA.

Robert Luskin, Rove’s attorney, said Thursday his client truthfully testified to the grand jury and expected to be exonerated.

“Karl provided all pertinent information to prosecutors a long time ago,” Luskin said. “And prosecutors confirmed when he testified most recently in October 2004 that he is not a target of the investigation.”

In an interview on CNN earlier Thursday before the latest revelation, Wilson kept up his criticism of the White House, saying Rove’s conduct was an “outrageous abuse of power … certainly worthy of frog-marching out of the White House.”

Wilson also said “my wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity.”

In an interview Friday, Wilson said his comment was meant to reflect that his wife lost her ability to be a covert agent because of the leak, not that she had stopped working for the CIA beforehand.

His wife’s “ability to do the job she’s been doing for close to 20 years ceased from the minute Novak’s article appeared; she ceased being a clandestine officer,” he said.

Federal law prohibits government officials from divulging the identity of an undercover intelligence officer. But in order to bring charges, prosecutors must prove the official knew the officer was covert and nonetheless knowingly outed his or her identity.

Rove’s conversations with Novak and Cooper took place just days after Wilson suggested in a New York Times opinion piece that some of the intelligence related to Iraq’s nuclear weapons program was twisted to exaggerate the Iraqi threat.

Democrats continued to sharpen their attacks, accusing Rove of compromising a CIA operative’s identity just to discredit the political criticism of her husband. House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi and other leaders asked Friday that Congress hold hearings regardless of the ongoing criminal probe.

“In previous Republican Congresses the fact that a criminal investigation was underway did not prevent extensive hearings from being held on other, much less significant matters,” Pelosi and the otehr Democratic leaders wrote Speaker Dennis Hastert.

On Thursday, Senate Democratic leader Harry Reid of Nevada pressed for legislation to strip Rove of his clearance for classified information, which he said President Bush should have done already. Instead, Reid said, the Bush administration has attacked its critics: “This is what is known as a cover-up. This is an abuse of power.”

Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., said Democrats were resorting to “partisan war chants.”

Pressed to explain its statements of two years ago that Rove wasn’t involved in the leak, the White House refused to do so this week.

“If I were to get into discussing this, I would be getting into discussing an investigation that continues and could be prejudging the outcome of the investigation,” White House spokesman Scott McClellan said.

The mere fact that Rove confirmed Plame’s role is indictable.

Why would the CIA ask for an investigation if there is nothing to look?

I have never witnessed the CIA request an investigation for a non-issue.

If you are being intellectually honest with this then ‘Working the crowd’ in this case has absolutely no bearing on the investigation.

Wilson’s article that prompted the ‘outing’ was rehashing old information.

I find it hard to believe that a journalist would run with a story because Rove heard the same rumor from another journalist.

Rove confirmed information that only an administration official would know.

The bottom line is someone in this administation will be indicted on perjury and/or obstruction at the very least.

Whether is was Rove or Scooter is irrelevant.

It will be interesting to see how things play out if Scooter is indicted.

I bet Scooter will sing.

[quote]vroom wrote:
I am a pretty conservative person and I believe what Rove did was called a Hatchet Job. And yes I believe it was intentional. His only salvation was he was not trying to injure our country, he was trying to get at Joseph C. Wilson .That is not a crime. Maybe uncontionable but no crime.

Bzzzt. Sorry, thanks for playing. Maybe wanting to get back at someone isn’t a crime, but how you go about doing it makes all the difference.

However, since you’ve defined it as not a crime, I’m going to shoot the next person that cuts me off on the highway, after all, getting back at someone isn’t a crime right?

Do those blinders let in any light at all?[/quote]

Mr. Vroom
It is a pleasure as always. If we had a way to make a bet I would do so. If Rove broke the law he will be charged and prosecuted.
If you were to shoot the next person that cut you off in traffic, you would most certainly be prosecuted for many crimes. And most likely be found guilty, unless you are smarter than you seem.
Thankyou
Mr.Pittbull

powerline is about as credible a source as the daily Kos.

Not.

[quote]Marmadogg wrote:
The mere fact that Rove confirmed Plame’s role is indictable.

Why would the CIA ask for an investigation if there is nothing to look?

I have never witnessed the CIA request an investigation for a non-issue.

If you are being intellectually honest with this then ‘Working the crowd’ in this case has absolutely no bearing on the investigation.

Wilson’s article that prompted the ‘outing’ was rehashing old information.

I find it hard to believe that a journalist would run with a story because Rove heard the same rumor from another journalist.

Rove confirmed information that only an administration official would know.

The bottom line is someone in this administation will be indicted on perjury and/or obstruction at the very least.

Whether is was Rove or Scooter is irrelevant.

It will be interesting to see how things play out if Scooter is indicted.

I bet Scooter will sing.[/quote]

The conspiracy thing is interesting, but by definition a conspiracy requires an underlying crime.

And this, if one believes it, definitely subverts the notion that there was any crime by anyone who confirmed or even originally identified Plame:

Excerpt:

[i]A former CIA covert agent who supervised Mrs. Plame early in her career yesterday took issue with her identification as an “undercover agent,” saying that she worked for more than five years at the agency’s headquarters in Langley and that most of her neighbors and friends knew that she was a CIA employee.

"She made no bones about the fact that she was an agency employee and her husband was a diplomat," Fred Rustmann, a covert agent from 1966 to 1990, told The Washington Times.

“Her neighbors knew this, her friends knew this, his friends knew this. A lot of blame could be put on to central cover staff and the agency because they weren’t minding the store here. … The agency never changed her cover status.”

Mr. Rustmann, who spent 20 of his 24 years in the agency under "nonofficial cover" -- also known as a NOC, the same status as the wife of Mr. Wilson -- also said that she worked under extremely light cover. 

In addition, Mrs. Plame hadn't been out as an NOC since 1997, when she returned from her last assignment, married Mr. Wilson and had twins, USA Today reported yesterday. 

The distinction matters because a law that forbids disclosing the name of undercover CIA operatives applies to agents that had been on overseas assignment "within the last five years." 

"She was home for such a long time, she went to work every day at Langley, she was in an analytical type job, she was married to a high-profile diplomat with two kids," Mr. Rustmann said. "Most people who knew Valerie and her husband, I think, would have thought that she was an overt CIA employee." [/i]

This is contended by Wilson and at least one of her neighbors, but if she wasn’t covert, no crime. This is completely different from the “knowledge” issue.

I find it hard to rely on Rove’s recollection of events to determine whether or not Rove committed any wrongdoing.

That’s a little too much like letting the fox guard the henhouse. Maybe we’ll have to wait and see who says what with respect to leak sourcing before we know.

Hopefully the truth will at least come out, though it’s apparent that some the parties involved might either get lucky or hide behind some technicalities.

BB

If the prosecutor has deposed everyone and has had the info for 18 months or so…wouldn’t he have moved on Rove if he had something? Are the interviews done?